Kilauea50 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I am curious about this - do you use your DAC or the software for volume control? Is there any instance that you cannot use the DAC for the volume? I am looking at DACS and this question was raised. Thanks Link to comment
tranz Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If your DAC has analog volume control, by all means use it. If it is a digital volume control I would avoid it. Link to comment
Kilauea50 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 OK thanks. I may consider going with a preamp too. Decisions decisions!! Link to comment
michaelD Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 If your DAC has analog volume control, by all means use it. If it is a digital volume control I would avoid it. From my understanding this is totally wrong. A good Digital control is exactly what is needed and a lot of DAC's can do this like the M1 very well and others not so well. Unless you are doing analog the preamp is essentially a relic or museum piece. 2 Channel: Bricasti M20, 21 & M28 SE /Aurender N30SA and MC10 Master clock Treatments: Acoustical panels(F, S & R walls) Misc.: SR Master Fuses Speakers: Martin Logan CLX ART (Dark Cherry) w/30# weights / 2-ML 212's Grounding: QKore 1&6 / Networking: SOtM switch, clock and Pwr Supply / AQ Diamond /SR Router Power: Furutech GTX-DNCF / Oyaide inwall wire Nordost: 2-QB8 III, QV2's, QK1's, QSine, QWave, QX4, TC Kones, Sort Fut & LIft / Full OG Loom / 3-QSource & 12-QPoints, QNet, V2 Network Misc.: iPad 6 /Custom Rack Media Rm: ML: 13A's, 2-Descent i's, 6- Vanquish, Focus / 3-Parasound A23 / Legacy iV-3 Ultra / 77" LG 4k OLED / Anthem AVM90 / Pioneer Elite DVD Nordost: Odin/T2/H2, BC Kones, H2 Network, V2 HDMI Link to comment
Kilauea50 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 I found a thread on this that has been very helpful in explaining how all this works: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/digital-analogue-converter-s-preamps-number-bits-and-volume-control-15110/ Link to comment
orgel Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Unless you are doing analog the preamp is essentially a relic or museum piece. Or you need to switch among a bunch of sources, or you need HT bypass, etc. Personally, I wish more DAC manufacturers would do what NuPrime does and make versions of their DACs with and without preamps/head amps. --David Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details) Office: Mac Pro > AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305 Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5 Link to comment
tranz Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Yep. Or it sounds better because the pre has better power, amplification and volume control than the DAC. Link to comment
Kelly Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Depends on if you like the sound of the dac or if you want to color it one way or another. One thing that can be said is that not all dac volume controls are created equal. but if your dac is up to it with good implementation and an output stage that is adequate to drive the power amp, then it should work well. Depending on your application, something very simple can work, like a passive volume control. https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak I use this with my powered monitors to great effect even tho my Codex has a digital volume control. I use this so that I can mute the speakers during headphones listening (both outputs are active when headphones are plugged in.) It is dandy as a desktop volume control, works great! Roon ->UltraRendu + CI Audio 7v LPS-> Kii Control -> Kii Three Roon->BMC UltraDAC->Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Open Link to comment
EVOLVIST Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 What is this thing in the mRendu DAC Diagnosis app, Set DAC to Max Volume? Reading in the manual it seems very unclear. See, the reason I'm asking is because several people I know have almost the exact same setup as I do, i.e. SonicOrbiter -> mReundu -> Roon - > DAVE - > Focal Utopia, and on their DAVEs their regular volume listening levels range between -40db to -20db, while mine is from about -16db to 0db. So, it's the same basic chain for bit-perfect audio. We all have our volume in Roon set to "Fixed." This leads me only one avenue left to explore. Is there something in my mRendu that is a little off. Even the Set DAC to Max Volume feature doesn't appear to an off selection, as if you select it once and your stuck with it. So, basically is there a chance I'm not getting the max volume out of the mRendu without signal degradation? Just in case you might think I'm going deaf, both my soon-to-be-ex-wife and my 13-year old son find my listening volume to be appealing to them, as well. Nobody feels they are getting their heads torn off. Moreover, my hearing has been professionally tested by an ENT specialist, and I can easily hear 30Hz to 16kHz. I've put an SPL meter on the signal coming out of my Focal Utopias and the max reading I'm getting out of it is about 85db (rounded up) at 0db on the DAVE, which I rarely get to those volumes. So...help? SonicTransporter i5 -> Linn KDS/3 -> M3a-800S -> EgglestonWorks Andra II Link to comment
vortecjr Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 What is this thing in the mRendu DAC Diagnosis app, Set DAC to Max Volume? Reading in the manual it seems very unclear. See, the reason I'm asking is because several people I know have almost the exact same setup as I do, i.e. SonicOrbiter -> mReundu -> Roon - > DAVE - > Focal Utopia, and on their DAVEs their regular volume listening levels range between -40db to -20db, while mine is from about -16db to 0db. So, it's the same basic chain for bit-perfect audio. We all have our volume in Roon set to "Fixed." This leads me only one avenue left to explore. Is there something in my mRendu that is a little off. Even the Set DAC to Max Volume feature doesn't appear to an off selection, as if you select it once and your stuck with it. So, basically is there a chance I'm not getting the max volume out of the mRendu without signal degradation? Just in case you might think I'm going deaf, both my soon-to-be-ex-wife and my 13-year old son find my listening volume to be appealing to them, as well. Nobody feels they are getting their heads torn off. Moreover, my hearing has been professionally tested by an ENT specialist, and I can easily hear 30Hz to 16kHz. I've put an SPL meter on the signal coming out of my Focal Utopias and the max reading I'm getting out of it is about 85db (rounded up) at 0db on the DAVE, which I rarely get to those volumes. So...help? Post the information from DAC Diagnistics so I can take a look. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
EVOLVIST Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Post the information from DAC Diagnistics so I can take a look. Thank you, doc. Here we go: DAC description: Dave 245f:0815 Diagnostic information for this DAC Chord Electronics Ltd Dave at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio Playback: Status: Running Interface = 2 Altset = 1 Packet Size = 63 Momentary freq = 44100 Hz (0x5.8334) Feedback Format = 16.16 Interface 2 Altset 1 Format: S32_LE Channels: 2 Endpoint: 5 OUT (ASYNC) Rates: 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000 Data packet interval: 125 usaccess: RW_INTERLEAVED format: S32_LE subformat: STD channels: 2 rate: 44100 (44100/1) period_size: 2205 buffer_size: 4410Simple mixer control 'Dave',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 32767 Mono: Front Left: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Front Right: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Dave',1 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 32767 Mono: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Thanks so much for taking the time with this. SonicTransporter i5 -> Linn KDS/3 -> M3a-800S -> EgglestonWorks Andra II Link to comment
vortecjr Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Thank you, doc. Here we go: [ATTACH=CONFIG]31892[/ATTACH] DAC description: Dave 245f:0815 Diagnostic information for this DAC Chord Electronics Ltd Dave at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio Playback: Status: Running Interface = 2 Altset = 1 Packet Size = 63 Momentary freq = 44100 Hz (0x5.8334) Feedback Format = 16.16 Interface 2 Altset 1 Format: S32_LE Channels: 2 Endpoint: 5 OUT (ASYNC) Rates: 32000, 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000 Data packet interval: 125 usaccess: RW_INTERLEAVED format: S32_LE subformat: STD channels: 2 rate: 44100 (44100/1) period_size: 2205 buffer_size: 4410Simple mixer control 'Dave',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 32767 Mono: Front Left: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Front Right: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Dave',1 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 32767 Mono: Playback 32767 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Thanks so much for taking the time with this. Everything looks normal. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
audiventory Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 If your DAC has analog volume control, by all means use it. If it is a digital volume control I would avoid it. 1. Software volume control may be calculated in float point numbers (32 and 64 bit). It improve precision of multiplying for any kind of integer input/output resolutions. 1.1. Pros of software volume control: a) Possibility of expanding audio signal amplitude to full scale of DAC for improving signal/noise ratio at DAC output. Example: DAC have noise floor about -120 dB. 24-bit signal have noise floor about -144 dB. I.e. we have theoretical reserve about 20 dB for increasing of the amplitude signal in audio file with limitations from point 1.2. b) Temperature stability. 1.2. Cons of software volume control: a) Need control overload. It solved via pre-normalisation to 0 dB of maximal amplitude of signal in audio file. However DAC may have different linearity for different amplitudes. As example, it may be reason of additional distortions about maximal amplitudes. For this case need use maximisation to lesser levels. 1.3. Noise floor is error of calculations and/or rounding. For 16 bit original signal after multiplying recommended to apply dithering. Noise floor of multiplied (in float point numbers) and original signals will have almost same values. For 24 bit DAC need do nothing, because DAC noise level about -120 dB, but noise floor of multiplied signal about -144 dB. 2. Analog control into DAC may be used for adaptation full scaled (by digital volume control) signal to demanded volume. All described here depend on DAC, amplifier, original audio file (content and resolution), etc. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
http404 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 How does the volume control option within the microRendu fit in to this discussion, since mR itself isn't a DAC, how does it control the volume? Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 How does the volume control option within the microRendu fit in to this discussion, since mR itself isn't a DAC, how does it control the volume? The microRendu hardware does not have volume control hardware builtin. The programs that implement the different "modes" may implement digital volume control. How those behave is part of the details of the particular program. I do not know the details of this for each mode. Jesus or Andrew may have some knowledge of these. John S. Link to comment
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