Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[Superdad]

There is power filters that adress the AC/DC leakage currents. Isol-8 powerline axis Isol-8 PowerLine Axis mains filter review | TechRadar is one example. Maybe something interesting to try out with LPS-1?

 

Sorry Cornan, but:

 

A) That power filter has a simple circuit to block mains DC (more of a problem in Europe than the USA AFAIK). Leakage current is an AC component that gets in the audio system on the ground side of the DC output of a PS by forming a loop (through both the AC and DC) with similar currents from the other power supplies in the system. To my knowledge, there are no "power conditioners" that can block that.

 

B) As John and I have been trying to explain, one of the big advantages of the "battery-like" UltraCap LPS-1 is that it DOES eliminate the issue of leakage current--at least that from whatever supply is energizing it. Without a path/loop into the system, an SMPS (or LPS, those have leakage too) can not do detriment to your system with its leakage Hence my suggested experiment above (just plug an SMPS into your wall--with nothing connected to its output--and tell us if you can hear any sonic penalty; if you do, then that is from high frequency crap--not leakage--and would take a custom-tuned filter to get rid of--easier and cheaper in that case to pick a better SMPS or LPS).

 

So I think most of you will find is that a modern SMPS (i.e. CE-certified, Level V or VI) is smoothly spreading whatever very high-frequency hash it has to the point where other power supplies in your system--and lighting on your house circuits--are doing far more harm.

 

Remember too that unless your gear has a power-factor-corrected LPS (very rare, though our choke-filtered JS-2 qualifies) its diode-switching is already kicking lots of low-frequency (compared to SMPS) harmonics (multiples of 50/60Hz) into your wall. And from a big power amp, those will be pretty strong.

 

So go try my experiment, and then let's please stop the speculation and worry about what energizing supply to use with our new device.

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. John and I are going to be releasing the LPS-1 boards to production this week! He still has some programming to finish up for the FPGA (the SD card firmware update loader code was giving him fits due to clocking), but he swears that no changes to hardware are needed. Did I mention that, even after the ton of circuit changes that took place from the first round of pre-production boards to this second set he is using and blessing, there were ZERO board/parts changes required?! Given the complexity of the design, that is incredible and a testament to John's focus and genius.

 

Anyway, guess it's time for me to start on the web site product info/ordering page.

[rickca]

John and I are going to be releasing the LPS-1 boards to production this week!

Congratulations! Yay!

[JohnSwenson]

It's been a while since I posted that short report on the LPS-1 in my system, so I thought today I would do some more listening tests and report them. Note that I have been running the LPS-1 fed by the 7.5 Meanwell since my previous post on this.

 

After a fair amount of listening and swapping feeder supplies (JS-2 and Meanwell) I have determined that they do sound SLIGHTLY different, but neither was hands down better, one did some aspects better and the other did other aspects better.

 

The fun part was trying to find out what was causing that difference. It turns out it was not anything mentioned here at all. My system as it stands right now has a pair of Dave Slagle autoformer volume controls (absolutely THE BEST volume controls I have ever heard). But in my haste to get them into the system I have left them "naked", I did not put them into a nice shielded box, and they have some un-shielded wire connecting to them. These autoformers are picking up some very low level noise from both feeder supplies, the JS-2 is pure 60Hz, and the Meanwell is higher frequency components. I'm pretty sure this is causing the slight difference in sound quality between them.

 

Note that the only way to hear this noise is to unplug the DAC and have the volume controls turned up high. With the normal output impedance of the DAC connected to the AVCs I can't hear it but can measure it.

 

Sorry for the digression down the rabbit hole this has caused.

 

I guess I need to get my AVCs in a nice properly shielded box!

 

Note that the difference was VERY subtle, and with the LPS-1 powering the microRendu and DAC it sounds quite a bit better than the JS-2 without the LPS-1 and VASTLY better than the Meanwell on its own.

 

On another note I have some impressions of listening to the system with the LPS-1. It has the traditional stuff: sounds more real, background acoustics are more real sounding, I can now discern words on some songs I was never able to figure out, I can make out instruments and music lines I never noticed before etc.. You know, the stuff I have come to expect when things start getting really good.

 

But another aspect has been a subtle lowering of distortions with complex music. One of my favorite genres is chorus and orchestra, but these are very difficult to playback right. For example one of my favorite albums I was only able to listen to once in a while, there was enough distortion in the complex sound field that I would get listener fatigue after listening to it once through. With the LPS-1 in the system I have had that album on for three days straight and I am still not tired of listening to it. An interesting aspect to this is that the albums that had this problem were the best recorded ones. I guess they had far more subtle "stuff" recorded that was causing distortions previously, but with the LPS-1, that is now reduced (or gone!) and now I can hear the wonderful stuff captured on the recording without the distortion.

 

So yeah, it's a keeper.

 

John S.

[earnmyturns]

Anyway, guess it's time for me to start on the web site product info/ordering page.

We are going to be reloading UpTone Audio every few minutes

[Pepsican]

I recently shipped a pair of used headphones to Austria. They arrived there in two days and sat in customs for six weeks. Perhaps the EU is opening everything and another problem with individual shipments to EU.

 

Got nothing to do with the EU. It is the individual countries that set the procedures on how they check mail.

[sandyk]

But another aspect has been a subtle lowering of distortions with complex music. One of my favorite genres is chorus and orchestra, but these are very difficult to playback right. For example one of my favorite albums I was only able to listen to once in a while, there was enough distortion in the complex sound field that I would get listener fatigue after listening to it once through. With the LPS-1 in the system I have had that album on for three days straight and I am still not tired of listening to it. An interesting aspect to this is that the albums that had this problem were the best recorded ones. I guess they had far more subtle "stuff" recorded that was causing distortions previously, but with the LPS-1, that is now reduced (or gone!) and now I can hear the wonderful stuff captured on the recording without the distortion.

 

So yeah, it's a keeper.

 

John S.

Hi John

Next you will be saying that the low end sounds more powerful too, where appropriate ? (wink)

It should also do wonders for early A to D tracks such as "Roberta Flack-Killing Me Softly With His Song" that was recorded with complex vocal arrangements and imaging, at levels way below today's recordings.

Kind Regards

Alex

[Jamesroy]

Well that's over my head.

[audiocrazy]

Any ETA on the preorder?

[kissov]

What about ESR if you just start hanging capacitence on power rails ESR will become a factor contributing to distortion products.

[Superdad]

What about ESR if you just start hanging capacitence on power rails ESR will become a factor contributing to distortion products.

 

Hmm.., not sure that you understand the design of our new supply. It is a very fast, very low impedance component, with exceptionally low noise regulated output. No "distortion products" here.

[Superdad]

Any ETA on the preorder?

 

 

Quite soon. Next week if I can get the info and photos ready for the web page.

Ordered the production boards last night!

 

Please refer to this post with regards the plan to inform everyone the night before making the web info/order page visible and accepting pre-orders.

 

Thanks every for your patience. John and I are really excited about this coming together at last. And we know a great many of you are too!

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

[Jamesroy]

Quite soon. Next week if I can get the info and photos ready for the web page.

Ordered the production boards last night!

 

Please refer to this post with regards the plan to inform everyone the night before making the web info/order page visible and accepting pre-orders.

 

Thanks every for your patience. John and I are really excited about this coming together at last. And we know a great many of you are too!

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

Is all this compatible with MacBook Pro?

[Superdad]

Is all this compatible with MacBook Pro?

 

No it is not. MacBook Pros (depending upon year and model) require 4-5 amp power adapters that output 16.5V, 18.5V, or 20 volts.

 

The UltraCap LPS-1 is a small, 1 amp supply with one output (user switchable between 3.3V, 5V, or 7V). It will typically be used with small DACs, headphone amps, streamers, module-based computers (MicroRendu, Pi, etc.), USB>S/PDIF converters, USB PCIe cards, external USB regenerators (REGEN, etc.), or for DIY projects (the 3.3V may be interesting for that). It provides full galvanic isolation and interrupts the path of leakage currents from other components in an audio system.

 

Please refer to the first post of this thread for more details.

[Daudio]

Alex,

 

"The UltraCap LPS-1 is a small, 1 amp supply with one output (user switchable between 3.3V, 5V, or 7V). It will typically be used with small DACs, headphone amps, streamers, module-based computers (MicroRendu, Pi, etc.), USB>S/PDIF converters, USB PCIe cards, external USB regenerators (REGEN, etc.), or for DIY projects (the 3.3V may be interesting for that). It provides full galvanic isolation and interrupts the path of leakage currents from other components in an audio system."

 

Nice 'elevator' proposal text - useful elsewhere too

[Jamesroy]

No it is not. MacBook Pros (depending upon year and model) require 4-5 amp power adapters that output 16.5V, 18.5V, or 20 volts.

 

The UltraCap LPS-1 is a small, 1 amp supply with one output (user switchable between 3.3V, 5V, or 7V). It will typically be used with small DACs, headphone amps, streamers, module-based computers (MicroRendu, Pi, etc.), USB>S/PDIF converters, USB PCIe cards, external USB regenerators (REGEN, etc.), or for DIY projects (the 3.3V may be interesting for that). It provides full galvanic isolation and interrupts the path of leakage currents from other components in an audio system.

 

Please refer to the first post of this thread for more details.

Thanks, my MBP is 2013 model.

[audiocrazy]

 

So what I plan to do--the night before making the UltraCap LPS-1 web page visible and ready for orders--is to send out an e-mail blast to those 3,800 addresses on our list. At the same time, I will give notice in this thread about the pending web order activation.

 

--Alex C.

How do I get myself on your mailing list? BTW I'm an existing customer and have ordered USB Regen. Does that qualify to be on mailing list?

[Dev]

The UltraCap LPS-1 is a small, 1 amp supply with one output (user switchable between 3.3V, 5V, or 7V). It will typically be used with small DACs, headphone amps, streamers, module-based computers (MicroRendu, Pi, etc.), USB>S/PDIF converters, USB PCIe cards, external USB regenerators (REGEN, etc.), or for DIY projects (the 3.3V may be interesting for that). It provides full galvanic isolation and interrupts the path of leakage currents from other components in an audio system.

 

Please refer to the first post of this thread for more details.

 

Alex, if I understand it correctly, the LPS-1 is preventing ground loops and leakage current to enter the device which its powering but how does it prevent degrading the performance of the device if the ground loop and leakage current enters from other paths - say for example, usb cable connected to the microRendu and Dac and the microRendu is powered by LPS-1 ? In such case, will the performance of the device remain the same with or without LPS-1 ? Or I got it all wrong ?

[genjamon]

Alex, if I understand it correctly, the LPS-1 is preventing ground loops and leakage current to enter the device which its powering but how does it prevent degrading the performance of the device if the ground loop and leakage current enters from other paths - say for example, usb cable connected to the microRendu and Dac and the microRendu is powered by LPS-1 ? In such case, will the performance of the device remain the same with or without LPS-1 ? Or I got it all wrong ?

 

By powering the microRendu with an LPS-1, it breaks any loop from existing. The loop in question would be formed by microRendu ground to DAC ground through USB cable, then DAC ground through power cable into wall/power conditioner, and then power cable ground to microRendu ground and to signal ground through microRendu power supply. So, putting the LPS-1 as power supply into the microRendu breaks that ground loop. No ground loop to be concerned with from the USB connection.

[Superdad]

By powering the microRendu with an LPS-1, it breaks any loop from existing. The loop in question would be formed by microRendu ground to DAC ground through USB cable, then DAC ground through power cable into wall/power conditioner, and then power cable ground to microRendu ground and to signal ground through microRendu power supply. So, putting the LPS-1 as power supply into the microRendu breaks that ground loop. No ground loop to be concerned with from the USB connection.

 

3-stars for you! Thanks for pitching in.

 

And remember, it is not just about breaking "ground loops" (though it makes it easier to think about it that way); It is as much or more about keeping two or more power supply domains from connecting together so as not to give their leakage currents a path into the system.

[lmitche]

No ground loop to be concerned with from the USB connection.

 

Alex, is the statement above correct?

[Superdad]

Alex, is the statement above correct?

 

Only in the context of a MicroRendu powered by an UltraCap LPS-1 (and using an Ethernet cable that does not defeat galvanic isolation by tying the shields at both ends). Under those conditions the MicroRendu almost becomes a "built-in" device to the DAC in that's its power supply and grounds are not introducing any new AC>DC domain. Of course the MicroRendu's USB ground is still joined to the DAC's input ground. (And as beta-testing insider you know where the next step is…)

[lmitche]

Ah yes, I wasn't thinking about microRendu implementations. Thanks for clearing that up.

[JohnSwenson]

It looks like I need to talk about the term "ground loop", there are a lot of misunderstandings about this floating around in the audio fields.

 

Traditionally the term "ground loop" has referred to two different technical issues, which has caused a fair amount of confusion, now we are talking about a third, making it really confusing.

 

First I'll cover the traditional issues, then the one the LPS-1 is designed to address and hopefully by then it should be possible to distinguish between them.

 

In order for a "ground loop" to occur a voltage difference has to occur, what causes this voltage is the main difference in the two traditional meanings of ground loop.

 

The first is an actual voltage difference between actual locations in the earth (the dirt that makes up the "ground"). The earth (ie dirt) has a pretty high resistance, it is very easy (and very common) for there to be several volts difference between locations in the ground.

 

In order for this to be an issue there has to be two (or more) electrical connections to the earth, these can be something specifically designed for this such as a ground rod, or unintended such as concrete or rebar. (ask Alex sometime about concrete grounding!)

 

The other method of "ground voltage difference" has nothing to do with actual earth connections, it is the voltage difference between safety ground sockets in different outlets. There are at least three mechanisms that cause this.

 

The first is magnetic coupling between hot/neutral wires and ground wires in the cable in the wall. The amount of this depends on the type of cable (individual wires in conduit, "romex", twisted geometry etc) and the length of the distance between outlets AND the current flowing through the hot/neutral wires.

 

The second is leakage current between a power transformer primary and the "core" of a transformer, which is connected to the chassis, which is connected to the safety ground (third pin) of the AC plug. This does not depend on the length of the wires.

 

The third are AC line noise suppression devices that supposedly work by "draining" the noise on the hot/neutral wires to the safety ground. Again not dependent on cable length.

 

The first is primarily an issue in systems where the audio gear is separated by a long distance, such as a studio or live sound event (think amps on stage and mixer at the back of the auditorium). This is rarely an issue in home audio systems.

 

The second and third CAN happen in home audio systems, the leakage through the transformer to safety ground is usually not too large, but the third, AC noise suppressors can be quite large. It is an irony of high end audio systems that in trying to "clean up the noise" on the AC line audiophiles will buy expensive noise filters that just wind up dumping a lot of noise on the ground system, frequently making things worse. Not all AC line noise suppression systems do this, but many do.

 

All of the above bring noise into an audio system through the safety ground of different boxes. Contrary to prevailing wisdom all of these can be very effectively dealt with by making sure that the safety grounds of all of your equipment are connected together with the shortest distance of wire, ie all plugged into the same power strip, AND the power strip has NOTHING between outlets other than big thick wires. This will guarantee that you cannot have significant voltage differences between safety grounds!

 

ALL THAT is just intro to explain that the LPS-1 does NOT deal with that type of ground loop. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with safety ground.

 

The LPS-1 deals with a different leakage current, one that is caused by capacitance between windings of a transformer, NOT the winding and safety ground. This leakage current creates a voltage between the AC line and the DC output of the power supply. Since it has nothing to do with the safety ground it doesn't matter whether the PS has a safety ground pin or not. (two pin plugs and three pin plugs don't make a difference) Thus things like "cheater plugs" have no effect on this leakage current.

 

In and of itself this "leakage" does not cause any issue, it only causes a problem when a loop is formed through another power supply. This can be called a ground loop since the current usually flows through the "ground" connection in the digital or audio interconnects, but using the term "ground loop" usually gives rise to confusion in respect to the type of ground loop that goes through the safety ground.

 

Therefore, I propose that we stop using the term "ground loop" when referring to what the LPS-1 breaks and instead call it a "leakage loop", hopefully this will help to prevent people from immediately jumping to the conclusion that it is referring to the safety ground.

 

John S.

[genjamon]

Excellent - thanks for that clarification, John. I was certainly conflating issues, and also likely quite confused!

[lmitche]

Thanks John, got it, very helpful!