Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[MikeJazz]

While I appreciate the convenience and service that a local dealer offer--if you had one right in your country to loan you a demo or such--I don't really get what an "EU shipping point" brings to the picture for a brand such as ours with just a few products. When I "add to cart" a Sonore MicroRendu (without PS) and include the choice for EU insurance, the cost for that item comes out to US$810. I suppose that is with some sort of standardized EU VAT percentage (or does that get adjusted further once someone enters their delivery country?), but if our product had a $640 sale price, you could receive it within about 12 days for $676, plus some local VAT (on something less).

 

Every business is different and I respect those differences. With several decades of experience selling and shipping internationally, I can reasonably say that I understand most of the pleasures and pitfalls. We can not please everyone, but we try hard to make purchasing a pleasant process.

 

Probably even more important than savings, would be the BIG advantage of avoiding the hassle we have here in Portugal to process items trough customs.

[MikeJazz]

 

Every business is different and I respect those differences. With several decades of experience selling and shipping internationally, I can reasonably say that I understand most of the pleasures and pitfalls. We can not please everyone, but we try hard to make purchasing a pleasant process.

 

One possible business model would be to licence your use of patents or designs to a EU "manufacturer" and get paid by commissions on sales. OEM kits made in EU would be nice. could be a sizeable opportunity.

[Superdad]

Probably even more important than savings, would be the BIG advantage of avoiding the hassle we have here in Portugal to process items trough customs.

 

I think some firms must just be better at the paperwork than others. I just looked in my shipping system and saw that we have shipped almost 2 dozen REGENs to Portugal without incident. Priority Mail ($32) got them there--through customs and delivered to final destination--in an average of 15 business days. That is longer than most of countries we ship to (except Brazil and India, those take time!). And I see that just last month someone in Portugal bought 2 REGENs and had us ship them via FedEx--4 days door-to-door.

[MikeJazz]

I think some firms must just be better at the paperwork than others. I just looked in my shipping system and saw that we have shipped almost 2 dozen REGENs to Portugal without incident. Priority Mail ($32) got them there--through customs and delivered to final destination--in an average of 15 business days. That is longer than most of countries we ship to (except Brazil and India, those take time!). And I see that just last month someone in Portugal bought 2 REGENs and had us ship them via FedEx--4 days door-to-door.

 

Not bad at all!

[kblundy]

I think some firms must just be better at the paperwork than others. I just looked in my shipping system and saw that we have shipped almost 2 dozen REGENs to Portugal without incident. Priority Mail ($32) got them there--through customs and delivered to final destination--in an average of 15 business days. That is longer than most of countries we ship to (except Brazil and India, those take time!). And I see that just last month someone in Portugal bought 2 REGENs and had us ship them via FedEx--4 days door-to-door.

 

Superdad - I wonder if you are seeing the whole delivery chain in these quoted figures? Here in the UK delivery is flagged by the courier as when it has landed in the UK and been cleared by customs. That is not the whole story - after that the import duty and VAT is then added and a letter is sent to the recipient to pay charges before the product is released and can be delivered by the Royal Mail - in some cases this can add weeks to the delivery time.

 

Declaring as audio product and giving any shipping value triggers customs, landing charges and VAT recovery - that will be the same across the EU. Shipping for instance as repairs and spares would have a different treatment, every product type has different considerations as you referenced in your reply.

 

The advantage in having a EU based distributor / sales agent would be the ability to ship in bulk, and amortise the costs of shipping, import and other charges across many sales.

 

Not sure if this helps - but these are unavoidable facts I'm afraid.

 

I really appreciate your open discussions on everything you talk about - so I thought you might appreciate a UK / EU (for now) perspective.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Distinctive]

I thought the end customer only needed to be contacted in the event that the shipment lacks a proforma invoice declaring the value of the goods for VAT payment.

In other words, the sender has done a sloppy work with his paperwork (happens all the time)!

[firedog]

Superdad - I wonder if you are seeing the whole delivery chain in these quoted figures? Here in the UK delivery is flagged by the courier as when it has landed in the UK and been cleared by customs. That is not the whole story - after that the import duty and VAT is then added and a letter is sent to the recipient to pay charges before the product is released and can be delivered by the Royal Mail - in some cases this can add weeks to the delivery time.

 

Declaring as audio product and giving any shipping value triggers customs, landing charges and VAT recovery - that will be the same across the EU. Shipping for instance as repairs and spares would have a different treatment, every product type has different considerations as you referenced in your reply.

 

The advantage in having a EU based distributor / sales agent would be the ability to ship in bulk, and amortise the costs of shipping, import and other charges across many sales.

 

Not sure if this helps - but these are unavoidable facts I'm afraid.

 

I really appreciate your open discussions on everything you talk about - so I thought you might appreciate a UK / EU (for now) perspective.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

+1

US priority mail gets to my local customs office within a few days from shipping and then disappears from the tracking for however long it takes local customs to process it - which can be one or two months. It only reappears on tracking the day it is delivered to me.

[struts]

No, no plans for that at present.

I have designed the packaging for the UltraCap LPS-1 to fit into a USPS Small Flat Rate Padded Envelope and with the discounted postage and insurance rates we get via (the terrific and time saving) ShipStation.com, we can ship the new product, with tracking and full insurance, anywhere in the world for $36 (less to Canada and here in the USA of course). I do not discuss in public the value that gets declared for customs, but let's just say you won't be paying VAT/duty on the full retail price. REGENs and power supplies get declared with harmonized commodity codes as computer peripherals rather than audio components, and that too eases the packages' passage through customs.

 

Our products are priced for direct sale, and there is no room for dealer discounts (the LPS-1 has the lowest margin of all due to its circuit complexity and 263 parts). I have always been open to and supportive of having enthusiastic overseas dealers represent our products, and have in fact given a few some token discounts for bulk order.

[Folks such as Mark Welsh at Item Audio UK, John Daly of Sublime HiFi Pty. in Australia, and Silvio Pereria of Audiopax in Brazil are fine examples.]

 

While I appreciate the convenience and service that a local dealer offer--if you had one right in your country to loan you a demo or such--I don't really get what an "EU shipping point" brings to the picture for a brand such as ours with just a few products. When I "add to cart" a Sonore MicroRendu (without PS) and include the choice for EU insurance, the cost for that item comes out to US$810. I suppose that is with some sort of standardized EU VAT percentage (or does that get adjusted further once someone enters their delivery country?), but if our product had a $640 sale price, you could receive it within about 12 days for $676, plus some local VAT (on something less).

 

Every business is different and I respect those differences. With several decades of experience selling and shipping internationally, I can reasonably say that I understand most of the pleasures and pitfalls. We can not please everyone, but we try hard to make purchasing a pleasant process.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Alex. I understand your rationale and suspect you are right that it makes sense for a smaller business like yours.

 

To try to answer your question about how VAT works in the EU (deep breath) in general VAT is charged at the prevailing rate in the country where the goods are sold. However for products sold online in one EU country for delivery in another there is an exception and VAT might be charged at the prevailing rate in the destination country. Each country has a threshold value of either €35,000 or €100,000. If a company sells product into a given country for over its threshold value it has to register for VAT in that country and charge VAT at that country's prevailing rate. In such cases the price is usually adjusted when the customer specifies the delivery address in the checkout process.

 

So if I buy something on Amazon.co.uk for delivery to Sweden the price goes up by 5% in the final stage of the checkout as VAT is adjusted from the UK's 20% to Sweden's 25% because Amazon's Swedish sales lie well over Sweden's €35k threshold. However I am guessing that Vortexbox is not selling for more than €35k in any one EU country so their products will have VAT charged at the UK's 20% rate regardless of destination.

 

Unfortunately VAT isn't the only thing that gets added when we buy from outside the EU. Import duty is added first, then a customs handling fee and then VAT on all of that plus the declared value of the product. So my microRendu (ordered from the US) cost $640+$45+$182=$867, i.e. $57 more than if I had ordered in the UK. Of course if the UK actually manages to extricate itself from the EU its role as an EU "staging post" will disappear.

[sdube]

And so the JS-2 9V output powers, via a nicely done custom cable, three units, (1) an iFi USB 3 into (2) a Regen into (3) another Regen.

 

In this scenario, would powering one of the Regens by the LPS-1 yield improved SQ? (As indicated, the LPS-1 would itself be fed from the JS-2 by the three way custom cable, which would also feed the iFi USB 3 and another Regen.) Apologies for persistently asking about this: I do so because once earlier Alex C had said that the LPS-1 after the JS-2 should barely provide any improvements, but later John S had said something about possible benefits with the LPS-1 after JS-2. Do the benefits have something to do with a breaking of "ground" issues? If so, would they still be applicable in my case? Finally, since the second Regen goes into a Berkeley Alpa USB converter -- that has its own power, but does require the 5v handshake -- could the LPS-1 power this unit?

I love music, but come a cropper with technical stuff. Hence the queries.

[Superdad]

+1

US priority mail gets to my local customs office within a few days from shipping and then disappears from the tracking for however long it takes local customs to process it - which can be one or two months. It only reappears on tracking the day it is delivered to me.

 

Well Danny, your country (I'll respect your privacy by not stating your location) is sometimes problematic, though we have shipped there about a dozen times without incident. FedEx is always listed as shipping choice at check-out on our site, and while it is not cheap, folks who live in countries where they think regular post might be excessively delayed may elect for that service. FedEx has their own "cage" in customs in all countries they operate in, and they are good at ensuring end-to-end control and delivery.

 

 

Unfortunately VAT isn't the only thing that gets added when we buy from outside the EU. Import duty is added first, then a customs handling fee and then VAT on all of that plus the declared value of the product. So my microRendu (ordered from the US) cost $640+$45+$182=$867, i.e. $57 more than if I had ordered in the UK. Of course if the UK actually manages to extricate itself from the EU its role as an EU "staging post" will disappear.

 

Thanks for all the additional data. I always enjoy learning about customs of other counties (pun intended ).

 

But honestly, for international shipments, non-delivery, customs delays, and excess fees have not been an issue for us at all. Of the 1,610 international shipments we have made since April 2015 (ShipStation.com is so great; I looked up that figure in less than 30 seconds), I'd say we have had not more than a dozen hiccups--with at least half of those being with Germany, until we changed the paperwork so they would be processed by customs at Frankfurt airport instead of at the very petty local customs offices.

 

I know that the USPS tracking system is only as good as the data link and scan regularity maintained in the destination country (often, especially for the UK, the package will show as "delivered" about 3 days before it actually is). Yet the 12-18 business days delivery time that is quoted in the shipping notifications we send has proven to be accurate. Trust me, audiophiles get anxious for there toys and if there are/were problems we hear about it!

 

Now back to the topic of the UltraCap LPS-1!

[firedog]

Alex-

 

You are right about Fed-ex - they make sure items get through customs in a prompt fashion. I've also used DHL successfully.

 

In my case it is the local post/customs office which apparently suffers from both understaffing and a lack of caring about the amount of time it takes them to process items, and apparently doesn't see any reason to put up to date info into the tracking database. I'm pretty sure that this isn't unique at many local post offices around the globe.

[Superdad]

In this scenario, would powering one of the Regens by the LPS-1 yield improved SQ? (As indicated, the LPS-1 would itself be fed from the JS-2 by the three way custom cable, which would also feed the iFi USB 3 and another Regen.) Apologies for persistently asking about this: I do so because once earlier Alex C had said that the LPS-1 after the JS-2 should barely provide any improvements, but later John S had said something about possible benefits with the LPS-1 after JS-2. Do the benefits have something to do with a breaking of "ground" issues? If so, would they still be applicable in my case? Finally, since the second Regen goes into a Berkeley Alpa USB converter -- that has its own power, but does require the 5v handshake -- could the LPS-1 power this unit?

I love music, but come a cropper with technical stuff. Hence the queries.

 

Well I think the best thing would be to wait for the LPS-1 to get out there and for everyone to experiment. But yes, the big selling point is that the output of our ultracap supply is 100% divorced from all grounds and leakage currents of the rest of one's system (the bank switching and opto-isolators is what allows that). It's like a battery, without the convenience and performance downsides.

 

Oh, and just to be clear, I am pretty sure that your Berkeley Alpha USB uses the USB cable's 5VBUS to power its entire PHY and XMOS USB front end--not just for handshake. They do that so they can maintain a separate ground/power plane without having to build in an entirely separate PS for the input side. Hence the Alpha USB is getting benefit from both the signal integrity/impedance match of the REGEN and from its new and clean 5VBUS output.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

[sdube]

Well I think the best thing would be to wait for the LPS-1 to get out there and for everyone to experiment. But yes, the big selling point is that the output of our ultracap supply is 100% divorced from all grounds and leakage currents of the rest of one's system (the bank switching and opto-isolators is what allows that). It's like a battery, without the convenience and performance downsides.

 

Oh, and just to be clear, I am pretty sure that your Berkeley Alpha USB uses the USB cable's 5VBUS to power its entire PHY and XMOS USB front end--not just for handshake. They do that so they can maintain a separate ground/power plane without having to build in an entirely separate PS for the input side. Hence the Alpha USB is getting benefit from both the signal integrity/impedance match of the REGEN and from its new and clean 5VBUS output.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

Brilliant: thanks a ton, Alex. And so, too, the Regen fed by LPS-1 would supply adequate power for the Berkeley Alpha USB, right.

[Superdad]

Brilliant: thanks a ton, Alex. And so, too, the Regen fed by LPS-1 would supply adequate power for the Berkeley Alpha USB, right.

 

Indeed.

[zilch0md]

Just now catching up to the last three or four pages...

 

Given that the LPS-1's design completely eliminates any concern for noise coming in from the energizing supply, it's nevertheless reasonable to accept that it can't possibly do anything about noise that the energizing supply backwashes onto the mains.

 

So, I don't have any problem believing that an expensive energizing supply can deliver less noise to the ears, all said and done, than a noisy, inexpensive SMPS, despite the fact that the LPS-1's output would be identical with either PS.

 

That said, an energizing battery would certainly be quiet, as Cornan had suggested (and I love batteries), but for greater convenience, without the cost of a high-quality, "low-backwash" LPS, how about using an isolation transformer that has a floating secondary?

 

I mean, why pay big bucks for an energizing supply where its low-noise output is redundant to the superior low-noise output of the LPS-1? In other words, why pay big bucks just to minimize the backwash noise that could get into the mains? There are less expensive ways to deal with the backwash noise.

 

In isolation transformers with a floating secondary, the neutral of the secondary does not go to ground, as is the case with isolation transformers that have a grounded secondary, and, of course, the safety ground still remains intact all the way from the input plug to the output plugs.

 

One of the benefits of isolation transformers having a floating secondary (and a grounded Faraday shield between the coils), is that they greatly attenuate backwash from noisy power supplies (in addition to greatly reducing incoming normal-mode noise - which would be just as redundant when energizing an LPS-1 as using an expensive LPS to energize the LPS-1).

 

The affordable Meanwell SMPS could energize the LPS-1, without concern for polluting the mains, as long as the Meanwell was plugged into one of these, for example (which has a floating secondary):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-1604A-Single-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B000LDLF3M

[chetthejet]

I've been reading this with some interest, but only a passing amount of understanding (relative newb, here). I've got all my digital stuff (dac, uRendu, DSPeaker Anti-Mode) plugged into a PS Audio Quintet. My integrated amp is plugged into the 2nd socket of a duplex outlet; the PS Audio plugged into the other. My question is: if one was to purchase the isolation transformer such as the one you've linked to, where would it go? Would you plug the Quintet into it and then the transformer into the wall, or would you plug the amp into it, or would you purchase two---one for the amp and the other for the Quintet/digital gear?

 

Also, one other question....that isolation transformer produce audible hum AND, does it produce a lot of heat that would need to be dealt with (I have some of my gear in an enclosed cabinet and that's where the transformer(s) would likely go)? Thanks!

[sdube]

Just now catching up to the last three or four pages...

 

Given that the LPS-1's design completely eliminates any concern for noise coming in from the energizing supply, it's nevertheless reasonable to accept that it can't possibly do anything about noise that the energizing supply backwashes onto the mains.

 

So, I don't have any problem believing that an expensive energizing supply can deliver less noise to the ears, all said and done, than a noisy, inexpensive SMPS, despite the fact that the LPS-1's output would be identical with either PS.

 

That said, an energizing battery would certainly be quiet, as Cornan had suggested (and I love batteries), but for greater convenience, without the cost of a high-quality, "low-backwash" LPS, how about using an isolation transformer that has a floating secondary?

 

I mean, why pay big bucks for an energizing supply where its low-noise output is redundant to the superior low-noise output of the LPS-1? In other words, why pay big bucks just to minimize the backwash noise that could get into the mains? There are less expensive ways to deal with the backwash noise.

 

In isolation transformers with a floating secondary, the neutral of the secondary does not go to ground, as is the case with isolation transformers that have a grounded secondary, and, of course, the safety ground still remains intact all the way from the input plug to the output plugs.

 

One of the benefits of isolation transformers having a floating secondary (and a grounded Faraday shield between the coils), is that they greatly attenuate backwash from noisy power supplies (in addition to greatly reducing incoming normal-mode noise - which would be just as redundant when energizing an LPS-1 as using an expensive LPS to energize the LPS-1).

 

The affordable Meanwell SMPS could energize the LPS-1, without concern for polluting the mains, as long as the Meanwell was plugged into one of these, for example (which has a floating secondary):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-1604A-Single-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B000LDLF3M

Await informed opinion, again (although Alex C has my queries sussed out).

[Superdad]

Gentlemen:

 

I think what everyone is going to discover--once UltraCap LPS-1 units are in people's hands--is that the entire issue of the "energizing" supply is going to be irrelevant to sound quality.

 

What John has been finding--and trying explain here and here, and what I have stated a couple of times recently, is that high frequency noise form an SMPS in your system--or the lower frequency harmonics that all LPS units (except the JS-2)--kick back into the already rather polluted AC mains line, are not the problem at all. Rather it is AC>DC leakage currents--which run through all hi-fi systems as a result of there being more than one power supply present--causing subtle sonic differences due to the resultant spectrum and amplitude.

 

A modern SMPS--even the cheaper ones, assuming they comply to Level V or Level VI emmisions standards--do not really "spew" a great deal of "noise" back into the wall. Their circuits are designed such that they spread their noise over a very broad bandwidth at very high frequencies. And the level and those frequencies are well below what is present on a typical home's power circuits.

 

No, the real culprit is the safety-mandated "Y" capacitor present in all SMPS units, which couples the unavoidable leakage current to its output. And depending upon the leakage coming from other supplies (SMPS or LPS) in the system, therein lie the root of associated sonic detriment.

 

But the LPS-1--via its bank-switched, opto-isolated design--completely blocks passage of the leakage current from its energizing supply. And any power supply--no matter how much leakage current it might be capable of--can not contribute/inject that into your audio system if its output is not galavanically part of the system.

 

To test this for yourselves, take any SMPS wall wart or brick, and plug it into an outlet on the same house circuit of your hi-if. If you wish, you can even put a load on it--a hard drive, a REGEN, whatever--just don't attach whatever device to your audio system in any way.

Play some music with and without such supply plugged in as above, and see if you hear any difference. Most likely you won't as the leakage from the supply has no pathway to couple or loop into your system. The same will be the case if you used that supply to power the UltraCap LPS-1.

 

I know this can be confusing. I even had a long conversation with John earlier today about methods to measure--or at least compare--the leakage currents that run around in every system. It is not hard, but it is not really possible to come up with a single number, and it is heavily dependent upon the power supplies of every other component in your system.

 

But again, for the LPS-1 it is irrelevant as it won't conduct or contribute ANY leakage currents into the system--regardless of the PS that powers it.

And if you think "noise" from an SMPS is going to be a sonic detriment, just try the experiment suggested above. If a output-unattached modern SMPS does not make any SQ difference, then you can be confident it will be perfectly fine as the supply for the LPS-1.

 

--Alex C.

[fmak]

''Rather it is AC>DC leakage currents--which run through all hi-fi systems as a result of there

being more than one power supply present--causing subtle sonic differences due to the resultant spectrum and amplitude. ''

 

I can agree with this analysis but do not exclude the issue of kickback into the mains. I have long disconnected smps s from the mains when I listen critically to gauge the SQ of a

good system. Equally I habitually power analog and digital equipment thru

separate transformer isolation mains spurs, sometimes with 2 regenerators, one for each.

 

The curious thing remains that, altering the frequency of the a regenerator such

as the PS audio P300 can alter substantially the bass and hf qualities of a dac.

 

PS: I use balanced passive attenuators to try to remove preamp colouration. One of these has constant impedance of 10k.

[One and a half]

Just now catching up to the last three or four pages...

 

Given that the LPS-1's design completely eliminates any concern for noise coming in from the energizing supply, it's nevertheless reasonable to accept that it can't possibly do anything about noise that the energizing supply backwashes onto the mains.

 

So, I don't have any problem believing that an expensive energizing supply can deliver less noise to the ears, all said and done, than a noisy, inexpensive SMPS, despite the fact that the LPS-1's output would be identical with either PS.

 

That said, an energizing battery would certainly be quiet, as Cornan had suggested (and I love batteries), but for greater convenience, without the cost of a high-quality, "low-backwash" LPS, how about using an isolation transformer that has a floating secondary?

 

I mean, why pay big bucks for an energizing supply where its low-noise output is redundant to the superior low-noise output of the LPS-1? In other words, why pay big bucks just to minimize the backwash noise that could get into the mains? There are less expensive ways to deal with the backwash noise.

 

In isolation transformers with a floating secondary, the neutral of the secondary does not go to ground, as is the case with isolation transformers that have a grounded secondary, and, of course, the safety ground still remains intact all the way from the input plug to the output plugs.

 

One of the benefits of isolation transformers having a floating secondary (and a grounded Faraday shield between the coils), is that they greatly attenuate backwash from noisy power supplies (in addition to greatly reducing incoming normal-mode noise - which would be just as redundant when energizing an LPS-1 as using an expensive LPS to energize the LPS-1).

 

The affordable Meanwell SMPS could energize the LPS-1, without concern for polluting the mains, as long as the Meanwell was plugged into one of these, for example (which has a floating secondary):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-1604A-Single-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B000LDLF3M

 

The isolation transformer also has leakage from the primary to the secondary, and will cheerfully move other noise sources (not DC though) from primary to secondary. Faraday shields are expensive to make, it's possible though but won't completely decouple the primary to the secondary. All an isolation transformer will do is to float the neutral away from the ground reference.

[Cornan]

There is power filters that adress the AC/DC leakage currents. Isol-8 powerline axis http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-accessories/isol-8-powerline-axis-mains-filter-695285/review is one example. Maybe something interesting to try out with LPS-1?

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[romaz]

Gentlemen:

 

I think what everyone is going to discover--once UltraCap LPS-1 units are in people's hands--is that the entire issue of the "energizing" supply is going to be irrelevant to sound quality.

--Alex C.

 

Alex, I am looking forward to owning an LPS-1 and am hoping I am lucky enough to be included in your first run. I'm sure it will be as good as you say and I look forward to comparing it against my Paul Hynes supply. Should it be better than my Paul Hynes supply, I will happily repurpose it for other duty. I think what bothers many of us is John's statement that when the JS-2 was used as the feeder supply for the LPS-1, it sounded better. Why should it sound better if there is complete isolation? Also, why would it matter if the Mean Well SMPS was warmed up or not? If there is complete immunity from the feeder, why should the LPS-1 care? Lastly, once the Mean Well was adequately warmed up, John still suggested the JS-2 as a feeder supply sounded better. Either there isn't complete isolation or else the Mean Well is back feeding noise into the mains line that is indeed significant. Perhaps the best feeder will be some PSU plugged into a separate circuit or else a battery of some sort.

[zilch0md]

What you have all been waiting for -- LPS-1 listening tests!

 

[snip]

 

Then I swapped out the JS-2 for the infamous 7.5V MeanWell, it wasn't quite as good, better than the JS-2 without the LPS-1, but not quite as good as the JS-2 driving the LPS-1. Who knows, it might be the infamous "SMPS" noise on the AC line getting into the power amp. Or not. But that supply was completely cold, it's getting a little better as it warms up.

 

[snip]

 

 

I feel compelled to say that I hope John never feels stifled from thinking "out loud," with candor.

[Astralark]

If fully isolation, the powering and cabling will make no difference so no SQ difference.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

Nice experiment design, Alex.