Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[Superdad]

How about other medical/engineering power solutions that also deal with current leakage and has ultra low voltage ripple noise (with clear specifications) ? such as :

 

PFS300A | Switching Power Supply | Products | DaitronPower

 

I can see the audiophile application.

 

Hi:

 

Yes, we have been aware of the few brands of medical SMPS units with modestly low noise and leakage current. If you do a forum search here (on my user name and Daitron), you will see me mentioning Daitron as early as January 2014. Yet those units are not cheap. At 100 units the 150W versions are about $200, and the 300W version you linked to is over $300. Again, that's at 100 units. About 50% higher for just a few.

 

Just to be clear, while such units may be low noise for an SMPS, they are still much worse than a well designed LPS. For example, that Daitron you linked to is specced at 10 milliVolts peak-to-peak noise (though they do not specify over what bandwidth which is critical). P-P noise from the regulators we use in the JS-2 is 0.74 milliVolts (at 10Hz to 100kHz).

 

And the 60 microAmp leakage spec of the Daitron is good for an SMPS (much better can be seen at: http://www.jeromeindustries.com/products/medical/specialty-products/ultra-low-leakage/delta-epsilon.php), this is still far greater than what comes from our big JS-2, which aside from isolating the output ground, uses an R-core transformer which has exceedingly low leakage.

 

Really the SMPS units are hampered by their design, which, in order to meet emissions standards must use the dreaded "Y" capacitor, which couples the AC to DC. So they are always balancing leakage versus emissions with the size of that cap.

 

Of course the subject of this thread, the UltraCap LPS-1, has zero leakage current, and the 1 amp TI TPS7A4700 output regulators we use have about 0.132 milliVolts of peak-to-peak output noise from 10Hz to 100kHz. Just putting the numbers in perspective here.

 

--Alex C.

[Astralark]

Hi:

 

Yes, we have been aware of the few brands of medical SMPS units with modestly low noise and leakage current. If you do a forum search here (on my user name and Daitron), you will see me mentioning Daitron as early as January 2014. Yet those units are not cheap. At 100 units the 150W versions are about $200, and the 300W version you linked to is over $300. Again, that's at 100 units. About 50% higher for just a few.

 

Just to be clear, while such units may be low noise for an SMPS, they are still much worse than a well designed LPS. For example, that Daitron you linked to is specced at 10 milliVolts peak-to-peak noise (though they do not specify over what bandwidth which is critical). P-P noise from the regulators we use in the JS-2 is 0.74 milliVolts (at 10Hz to 100kHz).

 

And the 60 microAmp leakage spec of the Daitron is good for an SMPS (much better can be seen at: http://www.jeromeindustries.com/products/medical/specialty-products/ultra-low-leakage/delta-epsilon.php), this is still far greater than what comes from our big JS-2, which aside from isolating the output ground, uses an R-core transformer which has exceedingly low leakage.

 

Really the SMPS units are hampered by their design, which, in order to meet emissions standards must use the dreaded "Y" capacitor, which couples the AC to DC. So they are always balancing leakage versus emissions with the size of that cap.

 

Of course the subject of this thread, the UltraCap LPS-1, has zero leakage current, and the 1 amp TI TPS7A4700 output regulators we use have about 0.132 milliVolts of peak-to-peak output noise from 10Hz to 100kHz. Just putting the numbers in perspective here.

 

--Alex C.

 

Thanks. The noise level of LPS-1 sounds amazing.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Superdad]

Thanks. The noise level of LPS-1 sounds amazing.

 

Well the TI TPS7A4700 is best-in-class (and over a wide bandwidth) for its current rating, but it is still just a 1A regulator. When one designs a high current supply, it is harder to keep the noise in the ultra-low range without going to a fully discrete design. But as has been discussed, low-noise is far from being the only performance spec that matters.

 

BTW, while the reg we use can be pushed as far as 1.3A or so, John has made the decision to limit it in the LPS-1 to a max of about 1.15 to 1.2A as I recall. And he is even programming a curve for how the LPS-1 behaves as it nears its current limits.

 

If we had the time and resources, the core of the LPS-1 tech could be used to develop a really amazing, fully isolated, programmable lab PS (look close and you will see a ZIF connector on the board for a display). But we are not ready to enter the test equipment business!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hi,

 

Have you set a price?

[Cornan]

Hi,

 

Have you set a price?

 

Look at post #1! [emoji848] ($395.-)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Look at post #1! [emoji848] ($395.-)

 

Thanks.

[mrmb]

We have cases for the first 250 units, but the first production board order (for which we have already bought all the circuit parts) will be for 150 units.

 

Will start taking orders--via the web page only--as soon as those first 150 production boards are on order with a known delivery date. I will never accept anyone's money until we can promise a shipment date with confidence. That's just how I roll.

 

-- Alex C.

 

When the 150 boards have arrived, and orders are then being taken, can it be assumed that this would be the best thread to follow, to learn that orders are now being accepted via the UptoneAudio.com website?

[Superdad]

When the 150 boards have arrived, and orders are then being taken, can it be assumed that this would be the best thread to follow, to learn that orders are now being accepted via the UptoneAudio.com website?

 

This will be a good thread to fine out news, though I'm sure to start a new one as well. However, our client base is worldwide and not just watching this thread or out web site. Everyone who has ever bought something from UpTone (and many that have inquired or corresponded with me) is on our mailing list.

 

So what I plan to do--the night before making the UltraCap LPS-1 web page visible and ready for orders--is to send out an e-mail blast to those 3,800 addresses on our list. At the same time, I will give notice in this thread about the pending web order activation.

This seems like the best and fairest way to give everyone the same shot at a unit from the first run.

 

This time I think 9:00 a.m. Pacific time will be the best time to make the order page active. At that time it will be noon on the East Coast, early evening in Europe, and not too early for those on the Left Coast of the USA. Only folks in Asia will might find it rough to be up at that time (though even for Hong Kong it will just be 11:00 p.m.).

 

That's the plan anyway. And again, the order taking will only begin when I can promise an exact ship date. Given that board production time runs 20 business days (Saturdays counted as a biz day), plus time for assembly, FPGA program flashing, functional test, then kitting, packing, and shipping, we are likely to start taking orders 40 days in advance of promised ship date.

 

I'll be checking in with John tonight or this weekend to see how close he is to having the final programming finished so we can get these boards on order.

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

--Alex C.

[rickca]

we are likely to start taking orders 40 days in advance of promised ship date

Hmm, 40 days and 40 nights. I'm sure I've heard that somewhere.

[Astralark]

Hi:

 

Yes, we have been aware of the few brands of medical SMPS units with modestly low noise and leakage current. If you do a forum search here (on my user name and Daitron), you will see me mentioning Daitron as early as January 2014. Yet those units are not cheap. At 100 units the 150W versions are about $200, and the 300W version you linked to is over $300. Again, that's at 100 units. About 50% higher for just a few.

 

Just to be clear, while such units may be low noise for an SMPS, they are still much worse than a well designed LPS. For example, that Daitron you linked to is specced at 10 milliVolts peak-to-peak noise (though they do not specify over what bandwidth which is critical). P-P noise from the regulators we use in the JS-2 is 0.74 milliVolts (at 10Hz to 100kHz).

 

And the 60 microAmp leakage spec of the Daitron is good for an SMPS (much better can be seen at: http://www.jeromeindustries.com/products/medical/specialty-products/ultra-low-leakage/delta-epsilon.php), this is still far greater than what comes from our big JS-2, which aside from isolating the output ground, uses an R-core transformer which has exceedingly low leakage.

 

Really the SMPS units are hampered by their design, which, in order to meet emissions standards must use the dreaded "Y" capacitor, which couples the AC to DC. So they are always balancing leakage versus emissions with the size of that cap.

 

Of course the subject of this thread, the UltraCap LPS-1, has zero leakage current, and the 1 amp TI TPS7A4700 output regulators we use have about 0.132 milliVolts of peak-to-peak output noise from 10Hz to 100kHz. Just putting the numbers in perspective here.

 

--Alex C.

 

Sorry to submit this reply especially in uptone "official" area. As soon as I see the Vpp noise specification of JS-2 and LPS-1. I can compare it with other units. First I saw Mivera Audio, they claim a 750uV Vpp and leakage current control. I can see Uptone ones are better. But when I look at Mojo Audio Joule V5.0 units, they claim a 50uV Vpp that amaze me (generally same price with JS-2). I know there may other factors to build a good power units but just could not ignore this key specification.

[Laowei Steve]

I use this set to 7VDC out: http://m.ebay.com/itm/TPS7A4700-Ultralow-noise-4-VRMS-Power-Supply-1-4-20-5V-1A-for-Audio-DAC-/252501322400?nav=SEARCH

and a 6.3VAC heater transformer. Works great powering my microRendu.

[JohnSwenson]

Sorry to submit this reply especially in uptone "official" area. As soon as I see the Vpp noise specification of JS-2 and LPS-1. I can compare it with other units. First I saw Mivera Audio, they claim a 750uV Vpp and leakage current control. I can see Uptone ones are better. But when I look at Mojo Audio Joule V5.0 units, they claim a 50uV Vpp that amaze me (generally same price with JS-2). I know there may other factors to build a good power units but just could not ignore this key specification.

 

The noise output of the LPS-1 is about 6uv (10Hz to 100KHz) at 7V, 0.5A output.

 

The JS-2 is higher, it depends on the current output, I don't remember all the numbers off the top of my head, I remember 250uv, but not at what current.

 

For almost all power supply designs the output noise is dependent on the output current, so a single number without specifying at what current is not terribly useful.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

Sorry to submit this reply especially in uptone "official" area. As soon as I see the Vpp noise specification of JS-2 and LPS-1. I can compare it with other units. First I saw Mivera Audio, they claim a 750uV Vpp and leakage current control. I can see Uptone ones are better. But when I look at Mojo Audio Joule V5.0 units, they claim a 50uV Vpp that amaze me (generally same price with JS-2). I know there may other factors to build a good power units but just could not ignore this key specification.

 

Well this is not the place to compare our choke-filtered, dual-output, user adjustable JS-2 (which comes with an exceptional 15AWG DC power cable) to the fixed-voltage, $325 more (when comparably equipped) Mojo. But it is important to remember that aside from not being the only important performance parameter, noise figures given as a single number are pretty useless (I only did so to broadly compare SMPS and others to the scale of what the LPS-1 is all about).

 

The reason a single figure is useless is because the bandwidth (and the current output) that the measurement is taken on is VERY important, and what is more interesting is what goes on at very high frequencies. We do not really listen to the power supply directly, so just knowing audio bandwidth noise is not helpful. Very high frequency noise from a PS can be just as detrimental to the circuits it feeds.

I'll defer to John to further elaborate on this topic if he feels inclined.

[Astralark]

The noise output of the LPS-1 is about 6uv (10Hz to 100KHz) at 7V, 0.5A output.

 

The JS-2 is higher, it depends on the current output, I don't remember all the numbers off the top of my head, I remember 250uv, but not at what current.

 

For almost all power supply designs the output noise is dependent on the output current, so a single number without specifying at what current is not terribly useful.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John. May I ask more details about DC cables? Are there any differences to upgrade DC power cables between LPS-1 and uR (or JS-2 to LPS-1)?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Superdad]

I use this set to 7VDC out: TPS7A4700 Ultralow Noise 4ÎœVRMS Power Supply 1 4 20 5V 1A for Audio DAC | eBay

and a 6.3VAC heater transformer. Works great powering my microRendu.

 

Neat. Thanks for sharing that.

[sdube]

So, I repeat a question that I had asked earlier: Can the LPS-1 be powered by one output of a JS-2 (the second output powers an Uptoned Mac Mini)? This output also powers an iFi USB 3 (before first Regen, to be powered now by LPS-1) and a second Regen through a three way connector? Will the LPS-1 in this configuration make a difference to the sound?

[JohnSwenson]

So, I repeat a question that I had asked earlier: Can the LPS-1 be powered by one output of a JS-2 (the second output powers an Uptoned Mac Mini)? This output also powers an iFi USB 3 (before first Regen, to be powered now by LPS-1) and a second Regen through a three way connector? Will the LPS-1 in this configuration make a difference to the sound?

 

In general the LPS-1 should be powering the last digital device before the DAC. In any specific system there might be a different location that sounds better depending on where the worst offending leakage current comes from.

 

The other issues is can the JS-2 handle both a Mac Mini AND an LPS-1 at the same time. I'm not sure. That kind of depends on how much current the Mac Mini takes and I don't know the answer to that. Alex is going to have to chime in with that.

 

John S.

[pl_svn]

JS-2, here, handling with no issue at all a Mac mini and an Auralic Aries (1.5A at 12v)

 

[Superdad]

So, I repeat a question that I had asked earlier: Can the LPS-1 be powered by one output of a JS-2 (the second output powers an Uptoned Mac Mini)? This output also powers an iFi USB 3 (before first Regen, to be powered now by LPS-1) and a second Regen through a three way connector? Will the LPS-1 in this configuration make a difference to the sound?

 

 

Sorry that I missed your question earlier Sdube:

 

Certainly you can power the UltraCap LPS-1 from one of the JS-2 outputs. Your second question (involving 2 REGENs and 1 iFi iUSB3?) has me a bit confused and would require some creative, semi-custom DC cabling, but the answer there is probably yes as well. Just remember, the LPS-1 is just a 1 amp supply (can be pushed to maybe 1.2A), yet REGENs--at least without needing to power a DAC's 5VBUS--consume only about 50mA (0.05A) each.

 

 

I have a feeling that everyone is going to find out that the problem with SMPS has more to do with leakage currents--now blocked by the LPS-1--and not much to do with the high frequency noise they kick back into the AC (which modern Level VI units--such as the Mean Wells we include--spread over a broad and very high range to meet the emission standard). There is already more crap in your AC lines than these SMPS are putting in.

 

 

I think we are within a week of placing the final production circuit board order for the first 150 units. As I've mentioned before, once that is done and we have a date for board delivery, then I'll notify everyone here (and on our mailing list) the night before making the web order page visible. Won't accept orders until we can promise a near-exact ship date.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

The other issues is can the JS-2 handle both a Mac Mini AND an LPS-1 at the same time. I'm not sure. That kind of depends on how much current the Mac Mini takes and I don't know the answer to that. Alex is going to have to chime in with that.

 

I think that will work fine. Definitely would start with both the Mac mini and the LPS-1 at 12V. I'll have to do some tests of the combo set that way versus 9V for the LPS-1.

 

The JS-2 is funny in that it can crank over 7.2(!) amps at 12V--assuming a full 120V or 240V AC input--without getting very warm at all. Yet if one does not mind some extra heat, it can do even more at 9V. But 5V is the opposite--and current units top out at about 4.5A at 5V--because there you run into the thermal dissipation limits of devices/heatsinks. The limit at the 12V end is due to droop of the raw DC--off the diode board and into the main board--under heavy load. When that voltage gets to about 12.6V, the regulators complain that they don't have enough "drop" to regulate to 12V, so they reduce output (usually to about 11.5V) to get back into regulation--until the load subsides.

 

Ah, the challenges of producing a wide-range, high-current LPS with just one set of diodes and one choke (separate regulators of course). It is a balancing act--especially when world mains power can range over 20VAC (220/230/240; same as 110/115/120; for 100V Japan it can do about 4.2A at 12V or 5A/5V)

[sdube]

Thanks a bunch, Alex and John (and pl_vsn): Sorry, that I sounded confused and confusing. At present, I use the JS-2 to power the (Uptoned) Mac Min from one 12 volt output, and use the other 9V output to power, via a nicely done custom cable, an iFi USB 3>Regen>Regen (that feeds a Berkeley Alpha USB>Metrum Pavane DAC). Now, my question was where would an LPS-1 best fit in this chain? Will it fit at all in terms of the three way custom cable? And will it make an appreciable difference to the sound? Wonder, too, if the LPS-1 can go into the last Regen (considering that the Berkeley Alpha USB requires a handshake, even if it is independently powered)? Hope this is clearer.

 

 

Sorry that I missed your question earlier Sdube:

 

Certainly you can power the UltraCap LPS-1 from one of the JS-2 outputs. Your second question (involving 2 REGENs and 1 iFi iUSB3?) has me a bit confused and would require some creative, semi-custom DC cabling, but the answer there is probably yes as well. Just remember, the LPS-1 is just a 1 amp supply (can be pushed to maybe 1.2A), yet REGENs--at least without needing to power a DAC's 5VBUS--consume only about 50mA (0.05A) each.

 

 

I have a feeling that everyone is going to find out that the problem with SMPS has more to do with leakage currents--now blocked by the LPS-1--and not much to do with the high frequency noise they kick back into the AC (which modern Level VI units--such as the Mean Wells we include--spread over a broad and very high range to meet the emission standard). There is already more crap in your AC lines than these SMPS are putting in.

 

 

I think we are within a week of placing the final production circuit board order for the first 150 units. As I've mentioned before, once that is done and we have a date for board delivery, then I'll notify everyone here (and on our mailing list) the night before making the web order page visible. Won't accept orders until we can promise a near-exact ship date.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

[sdube]

And so the JS-2 9V output powers, via a nicely done custom cable, three units, (1) an iFi USB 3 into (2) a Regen into (3) another Regen. I know, I know, my mind boggles, too.

[struts]

 

I think we are within a week of placing the final production circuit board order for the first 150 units. As I've mentioned before, once that is done and we have a date for board delivery, then I'll notify everyone here (and on our mailing list) the night before making the web order page visible. Won't accept orders until we can promise a near-exact ship date.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

Many thanks for the update Alex. Do you have any plans to offer a shipping point within the EU as Sonore do for the microRendu via VortexBox??

[Superdad]

Many thanks for the update Alex. Do you have any plans to offer a shipping point within the EU as Sonore do for the microRendu via VortexBox??

 

No, no plans for that at present.

I have designed the packaging for the UltraCap LPS-1 to fit into a USPS Small Flat Rate Padded Envelope and with the discounted postage and insurance rates we get via (the terrific and time saving) ShipStation.com, we can ship the new product, with tracking and full insurance, anywhere in the world for $36 (less to Canada and here in the USA of course). I do not discuss in public the value that gets declared for customs, but let's just say you won't be paying VAT/duty on the full retail price. REGENs and power supplies get declared with harmonized commodity codes as computer peripherals rather than audio components, and that too eases the packages' passage through customs.

 

Our products are priced for direct sale, and there is no room for dealer discounts (the LPS-1 has the lowest margin of all due to its circuit complexity and 263 parts). I have always been open to and supportive of having enthusiastic overseas dealers represent our products, and have in fact given a few some token discounts for bulk order.

[Folks such as Mark Welsh at Item Audio UK, John Daly of Sublime HiFi Pty. in Australia, and Silvio Pereria of Audiopax in Brazil are fine examples.]

 

While I appreciate the convenience and service that a local dealer offer--if you had one right in your country to loan you a demo or such--I don't really get what an "EU shipping point" brings to the picture for a brand such as ours with just a few products. When I "add to cart" a Sonore MicroRendu (without PS) and include the choice for EU insurance, the cost for that item comes out to US$810. I suppose that is with some sort of standardized EU VAT percentage (or does that get adjusted further once someone enters their delivery country?), but if our product had a $640 sale price, you could receive it within about 12 days for $676, plus some local VAT (on something less).

 

Every business is different and I respect those differences. With several decades of experience selling and shipping internationally, I can reasonably say that I understand most of the pleasures and pitfalls. We can not please everyone, but we try hard to make purchasing a pleasant process.

[d_elm]

I recently shipped a pair of used headphones to Austria. They arrived there in two days and sat in customs for six weeks. Perhaps the EU is opening everything and another problem with individual shipments to EU.