Legit Comparison of JPlay versus Other Players

[a2x024]

A plea to the community:

 

Would someone out there with access to some lab-grade test gear and a true reference DAC perform a legitimate head-to-head among JPlay and the other music players?

 

I will admit that I am a JPlay believer (please don't hate). And I am bothered that there seems to be no measurable proof of its effectiveness. (And please spare me the speech about how something does not need to be measurable to be significant.)

 

I have read some very thoughtful and clever experiments posted online that ultimately cannot demonstrate a measurable difference between, for instance, JPlay and JRiver. But I am left unconvinced because the test gear itself always seems inadequate. The last one I read was a very well-designed experiment with a write up from a guy who was obviously very smart, but the measurements were captured using a PC sound card with a specified -89dB noise floor on its ADC.

 

Don't get me wrong, I realize this is a pretty tall order. Assuming a difference does actually exist, I would expect capturing that difference would require a system with incredible resolution and repeatability.

 

But I have read online reviews from individual contributors that featured extremely expensive gear from Audio Precision, Rohde & Schwarz... my assumption is they had access to these assets at work (which is awesome).

 

So, would someone with one of these $100k analyzers sitting around the office sneak a reference DAC into their lab and perform a rigorous after-hours experiment just to satisfy the curiosity of the audio community?

 

If your boss catches you, you are welcome to throw "a2x024" under the bus...

[17629]

"(And please spare me the speech about how something does not need to be measurable to be significant.)"

 

Is cut an paste a valid alternative to a speech?

[Sal1950]

Now let me think, where did I leave that analyzer? LOL

[a2x024]

Great.

 

Instead of getting anything close to a serious reply, I get heckled by someone who needs to copy-and-paste the term "copy and paste" to avoid misspelling it and another who thinks the idea of someone actually having access to an analyzer is laugh out loud hilarious.

 

This is not the grand inrush of brainpower I was hoping for.

[Possum Jenkins]

Great.

 

Instead of getting anything close to a serious reply, I get heckled by someone who needs to copy-and-paste the term "copy and paste" to avoid misspelling it and another who thinks the idea of someone actually having access to an analyzer is laugh out loud hilarious.

 

This is not the grand inrush of brainpower I was hoping for.

 

If you believe, by which I take it you think it sounds better, then why do you need measurements? I'm not attempting to annoy, just interested.

[a2x024]

I don't think I ultimately need such measurements to validate my preference.

 

But, I think we can all agree that having measurements is always better than not. And, based on the tests I have seen, I don't think we can confidently conclude that acquiring such measurements is impossible- perhaps just prohibitively expensive.

 

So, I am asking for an appropriate test to be conducted so that we can conclude that such measurements either do exist or are technically unattainable. Either way, I will likely keep my view that JPlay actually "works".

[17629]

Great.

 

Instead of getting anything close to a serious reply, I get heckled by someone who needs to copy-and-paste the term "copy and paste" to avoid misspelling it and another who thinks the idea of someone actually having access to an analyzer is laugh out loud hilarious.

 

This is not the grand inrush of brainpower I was hoping for.

 

Sorry, but when you are so extremely subjective, its kind of hard to get results. The manner in which you ask questions is like a child pretending to be a grown up. If you're looking for a grand inrush of brainpower, lets start with you.

 

"But, I think we can all agree that having measurements is always better than not. And, based on the tests I have seen, I don't think we can confidently conclude that acquiring such measurements is impossible- perhaps just prohibitively expensive.

 

So, I am asking for an appropriate test to be conducted so that we can conclude that such measurements either do exist or are technically unattainable. Either way, I will likely keep my view that JPlay actually "works"."

 

Since you find the equipment used in past measurements to be inadequate, maybe you should provide a list so we know what not to use, and why. Then, you may as well tell us what equipment meets your standards, and go over exactly what we need to be measuring. Just asking us if we have access to really expensive measuring devices and high end dacs to measure some piece software, doesn't warrant more than just a cut and paste response. If you can do better, and are asking for someone else to invest their valuable time, then make a real case. If not, something tells me you'll be the first one to bash a lot of hard work if it doesn't live up to your standards.

[a2x024]

Since you find the equipment used in past measurements to be inadequate, maybe you should provide a list so we know what not to use, and why...

 

Although your suggestion sounds plausible, I disagree. Anyone with the equipment and knowledge to perform such a test likely does not need to be told what to use or how to use it. (It's like a ZJ: if you have to ask, you can't afford it.)

 

If you can do better, and are asking for someone else to invest their valuable time, then make a real case. If not, something tells me you'll be the first one to bash a lot of hard work if it doesn't live up to your standards.

Alright, let's not get so defensive about all the work you're clearly not about to do. I think I was actually very respectful to the tests that I referenced and did no such "bashing". Let's recall from my original post,

 

"I have read some very thoughtful and clever experiments posted online..."

"The last one I read was a very well-designed experiment with a write up from a guy who was obviously very smart..."

 

Regarding the threat of me bashing results, I think you're projecting.

[17629]

"Although your suggestion sounds plausible, I disagree. Anyone with the equipment and knowledge to perform such a test likely does not need to be told what to use or how to use it. (It's like a ZJ: if you have to ask, you can't afford it.)"

 

That's a load of BS. You're one of those posters who employ a strategy of trying to look smart with your questions and comments, but change the topic when things get difficult. Instead of admitting that you don't know something, you fabricate a response so you don't have to be wrong and look foolish. With your method, you always get to be right regardless of what the facts are.

[PopPop]

If you need someone else to tell you, because your equipment won't resolve any possible difference, how could it matter? You should really be looking at usability and features.

[Paul R]

Great.

 

Instead of getting anything close to a serious reply, I get heckled by someone who needs to copy-and-paste the term "copy and paste" to avoid misspelling it and another who thinks the idea of someone actually having access to an analyzer is laugh out loud hilarious.

 

This is not the grand inrush of brainpower I was hoping for.

 

Seriously, you can pay a lab to do those comparisons, but any negative results can and will subject anyone posting them to unending personal attacks, harrasment, and attempts by "believers"'to tarnish their rep all over the internet. Not worth the cost.

 

If you enjoy JPlay, and believe you can hear a difference, that really is all that matters. You can also explore other options and see if other software has different usbility and features you like, and of course, if it sounds the same or better for you.

 

Or not, just as you want.

 

I do not think anyone will fault you, but pushing for lab results may disappoint you, and needlessly ruin your enjoyment.

[a2x024]

If you need someone else to tell you, because your equipment won't resolve any possible difference, how could it matter? You should really be looking at usability and features.

 

To clarify, I am not saying that my ears listening to my system cannot qualitatively hear a difference; I am asking for a quantified measurement of that difference.

 

But, you do raise a tough question: How could it matter?

 

I'm not sure that it ultimately does. There is a famous quote from Kelvin that I buy into, "To measure is to know". Being able to (appropriately) quantify something, to me, makes it more-real. Not that it should be thought of as wrong, but it bothers me to think I am just enjoying a placebo.

[a2x024]

...but any negative results can and will subject anyone posting them to unending personal attacks...

Yeah, tell me about it. I thought I was making a relatively benign request but most of this chain quickly went straight to snark.

 

As the first thread I've started, this has been eye-opening. I get the impression that if someone reads a topic and is not immediately interested, they'll often start talking trash just to make it more personally interesting. It's like wagering on a sporting event that you would otherwise not care about just to make it more exciting (except the wager typically does not completely derail the sporting event).

 

 

If you enjoy JPlay, and believe you can hear a difference, that really is all that matters....

Speaking strictly in terms of enjoyment, I agree. I think the primary motivator behind my request was really just curiosity: Can this actually be measured?

 

My hypothesis is obviously that it can be measured. But I get the impression the hypothesis of most people on this chain is "That's stupid!"...

[Paul R]

Yeah, tell me about it. I thought I was making a relatively benign request but most of this chain quickly went straight to snark.

 

As the first thread I've started, this has been eye-opening. I get the impression that if someone reads a topic and is not immediately interested, they'll often start talking trash just to make it more personally interesting. It's like wagering on a sporting event that you would otherwise not care about just to make it more exciting (except the wager typically does not completely derail the sporting event).

 

That doesn't usually happen, but it can happen when a topic or question has a long and acrimonious history. I am sorry that your first experience was not as positive as it could be.

 

Speaking strictly in terms of enjoyment, I agree. I think the primary motivator behind my request was really just curiosity: Can this actually be measured?

 

My hypothesis is obviously that it can be measured. But I get the impression the hypothesis of most people on this chain is "That's stupid!"...

 

There is another old saying - be careful what you ask, you might get answers you don't like! Certainly this is one of those subjects where that can happen.

 

-Paul

[a2x024]

Thanks for the tips and feedback- duly noted. Judging by the current trajectory of the chain, I have my doubts it will eventually meander to the end I was hoping for...

[mansr]

Seriously, you can pay a lab to do those comparisons, but any negative results can and will subject anyone posting them to unending personal attacks, harrasment, and attempts by "believers"'to tarnish their rep all over the internet. Not worth the cost.

 

If you enjoy JPlay, and believe you can hear a difference, that really is all that matters. You can also explore other options and see if other software has different usbility and features you like, and of course, if it sounds the same or better for you.

 

Or not, just as you want.

 

I do not think anyone will fault you, but pushing for lab results may disappoint you, and needlessly ruin your enjoyment.

There's no need for professional lab tests. A half-decent ADC is more sensitive than any human ear.

[Paul R]

There's no need for professional lab tests. A half-decent ADC is more sensitive than any human ear.

 

I am not defending the opposite point of view, but the testing the OP is wondering about was done with a "half decent" ADC, and the results are more or less still questioned. Whether or not those results should be questioned is a different subject - if the OP wants better testing, he will probably need to pay a lab to do it.

 

-Paul

[blownsi]

One needs to capture playback from both sources and use audio diffmaker to create a file of the difference. A similar study was done here: Computer Audiophile - JRiver Mac vs JRiver Windows Sound Quality Comparison

 

OP: I would try sending a message to the author of the above post.

[a2x024]

There's no need for professional lab tests. A half-decent ADC is more sensitive than any human ear.

 

Since these software platforms are all bit-perfect, jitter is likely going to be the ultimate differentiator. If we consider 24 bit data, I would guess most systems are going to have jitter spectra measuring on the order of -140dB.

 

When comparing software platforms we would be attempting to differentiate between two jitter specta. Confidently demonstrating this difference would likely require sub-parts-per-million test repeatability or the ability to somehow take a differential measurement between two spectra.

 

Either way, can't see a common ADC getting us there (which was the entire thrust of my original post).

[mansr]

Since these software platforms are all bit-perfect, jitter is likely going to be the ultimate differentiator. If we consider 24 bit data, I would guess most systems are going to have jitter spectra measuring on the order of -140dB.

 

When comparing software platforms we would be attempting to differentiate between two jitter specta. Confidently demonstrating this difference would likely require sub-parts-per-million test repeatability or the ability to somehow take a differential measurement between two spectra.

 

Either way, can't see a common ADC getting us there (which was the entire thrust of my original post).

 

That magnitude of difference is far below what anyone can hear.

 

If an ADC is good enough to record the music in the first place, it ought to be good enough for this.

[a2x024]

That magnitude of difference is far below what anyone can hear.

 

I think you're implicitly debating an axiom of the thread (that JPlay does actually work).

 

If an ADC is good enough to record the music in the first place, it ought to be good enough for this.

 

Would you care to elaborate? I don't think that statement is as self-evident as it was presented.