T+a dac 8 dsd

[sbenyo]

I have to admit I did not use -2s filters much. I did use poly-sinc-xtr-2s shortly by mistake before I changed to ploy-sinc-xtr (my current default). For me so far the difference is significant. I feel XTR is fuller, allowing me to hear more sound nuances.

It is also different from PCM 384kHz which I also find very good. DSD XTR is more tube like and relaxed than PCM but without losing any clarity or crispness. It can be a matter of taste if you like the DSD better than PCM or not. I still think that sound wise DSD512 with XTR is superior but not by a big margin.

 

It is also important to mention that this can change between systems and setups. It is clear that you need a good setup (amp+speakers) if you want to hear all nuances and differences. It may be too subtle if your system is not capable enough. I also use ISO REGEN between PC and DAC which also helps improve the sound .

 

I think it's worth hearing more opinions. I can recommend it as it does sound best in my setup but cost is significant.

Since differences are not huge, I am sure you can also greatly enjoy DSD -2s or PCM. If you do look for the ultimate sound nuances and have the right system / budget then you should consider it.

 

As a side note, I did invest in a high-end PC not only for DSD512 XTR so I get much more from it than just the sound which made it an easier decision for me.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, sbenyo said:

I have to admit I did not use -2s filters much. I did use poly-sinc-xtr-2s shortly by mistake before I changed to ploy-sinc-xtr (my current default). For me so far the difference is significant. I feel XTR is fuller, allowing me to hear more sound nuances.

It is also different from PCM 384kHz which I also find very good. DSD XTR is more tube like and relaxed than PCM but without losing any clarity or crispness. It can be a matter of taste if you like the DSD better than PCM or not. I still think that sound wise DSD512 with XTR is superior but not by a big margin.

 

It is also important to mention that this can change between systems and setups. It is clear that you need a good setup (amp+speakers) if you want to hear all nuances and differences. It may be too subtle if your system is not capable enough. I also use ISO REGEN between PC and DAC which also helps improve the sound .

 

I think it's worth hearing more opinions. I can recommend it as it does sound best in my setup but cost is significant.

Since differences are not huge, I am sure you can also greatly enjoy DSD -2s or PCM. If you do look for the ultimate sound nuances and have the right system / budget then you should consider it.

 

As a side note, I did invest in a high-end PC not only for DSD512 XTR so I get much more from it than just the sound which made it an easier decision for me.

Can you please share the processor and motherboard you are using for dsd512 xtr?

[andru26]

2 hours ago, sbenyo said:

I have to admit I did not use -2s filters much. I did use poly-sinc-xtr-2s shortly by mistake before I changed to ploy-sinc-xtr (my current default). For me so far the difference is significant. I feel XTR is fuller, allowing me to hear more sound nuances.

It is also different from PCM 384kHz which I also find very good. DSD XTR is more tube like and relaxed than PCM but without losing any clarity or crispness. It can be a matter of taste if you like the DSD better than PCM or not. I still think that sound wise DSD512 with XTR is superior but not by a big margin.

 

It is also important to mention that this can change between systems and setups. It is clear that you need a good setup (amp+speakers) if you want to hear all nuances and differences. It may be too subtle if your system is not capable enough. I also use ISO REGEN between PC and DAC which also helps improve the sound .

 

I think it's worth hearing more opinions. I can recommend it as it does sound best in my setup but cost is significant.

Since differences are not huge, I am sure you can also greatly enjoy DSD -2s or PCM. If you do look for the ultimate sound nuances and have the right system / budget then you should consider it.

 

As a side note, I did invest in a high-end PC not only for DSD512 XTR so I get much more from it than just the sound which made it an easier decision for me.

Thanks a lot for the details.

 

Regarding the PCM/DSD differences I have to say those are mostly determined by the DAC 8 dedicated DSD chipset. 

 

I am also thinking of getting the ISO REGEN and I'd like to understand how big of a difference it makes to the sound. My expectations from it are blacker background, increased dynamics, better instrument separation and clean sibilance to name a few. I know that this is probably what everybody is looking for, but my question is how much does it improve these aspects?

 

Thanks,

Andru

[sbenyo]

For me the ISO REGEN is doing most of the improvements above, making the sound fuller.

 

It is important to say that all the impressions for ISO REGEN and XTR (vs -2s) are on nuances that for some will be more significant and for some less (depending on setup). The sound should still be great even without it and all this may just add the final edge.

PCM vs DSD is different as I thing. They have different characteristics and it's hard to define which is better. It may be that DSD is technically better but I am no expert on it. For me PCM sounds more like SS and DSD is more tube. This is a matter of taste.

 

I do think that ISO REGEN is a good investment but getting a PC for XTR is much more expensive. I would only go there if it's needed for other things and not invest in it only for this.

 

 

 

[Quadman]

I too, use an iso-regen with the T+A but find it extremely fussy.  The best sounding way to run it is in the ISO setting but for some reason static bids up (so says Alex) and the PC loses sight of the dac and music stops.  Efforts to get the pc to see the dac again can be frustrating. Alex replaced my IR with another one he called v2 but the same problem persisted.  I can run it in the non-ISO position just fine it still adds a little to the sound especially with my regen located at the PC.  As to filters I used to exclusively run the XTR-MP-2s then I added the Audiophile optimizer program to my PC and after playing a lot with the digital sound filters in that program (changes of which are not subtle) I found that with my preferred AO filter set (3B) that poly-sinc-shrt-MP became my favorite sounding filter with the XTR-mp-2s being just a little more congested than the other.  My PC runs a Ryzen 1800x and it cannot do the XTR non 2s filter even with cuda, in fact if I turn cuda offload off in HQP it won't run closed form either.  With Cuda off load the only filters I cannot run are the non-2s XTR (at 512). I do think the much higher L3 cache of the AMD processor does a sonic improvement over the older 6th and 7th gen intel's.  I haven't heard the new 8th gen with 12mb L3 which still trails the AMD's 16mb. 

 

What surprised me most with the addition of AO was the SQ difference between the digital filter settings, the are much more pronounced the any other program I have used such as HQP, change HQP filters and a non-audiophile would struggle to describe any difference, change the filter signature in AO from say 3B to 3C, not to mention 3B to 4B or another and a non-audiophile could describe some of the differences they heard.  Not sure if these differences are due to the T+A's excellent handling of 512 material, so I am curious if other non-T+A users hear the big differences in AO digital filters?

[sbenyo]

I also have issues with ISO REGEN not being recognized by Windows after it is used for sometime.
It happens only when I first turn on the DAC but when I reconnect the ISO REGEN power it is resolved. It does not drop during listening sessions so that is good. It is annoying but not in a way I cannot handle.

 

Regarding AO and filters - I understand this makes the PC optimized for Audio. If I am using the PC for other purpose, including gaming, does anyone know if it may hurt performance or will it be less optimized for uses that are not Audio?

 

 

[andru26]

2 hours ago, Quadman said:

I too, use an iso-regen with the T+A but find it extremely fussy.  The best sounding way to run it is in the ISO setting but for some reason static bids up (so says Alex) and the PC loses sight of the dac and music stops.  Efforts to get the pc to see the dac again can be frustrating. Alex replaced my IR with another one he called v2 but the same problem persisted.  I can run it in the non-ISO position just fine it still adds a little to the sound especially with my regen located at the PC.  As to filters I used to exclusively run the XTR-MP-2s then I added the Audiophile optimizer program to my PC and after playing a lot with the digital sound filters in that program (changes of which are not subtle) I found that with my preferred AO filter set (3B) that poly-sinc-shrt-MP became my favorite sounding filter with the XTR-mp-2s being just a little more congested than the other.  My PC runs a Ryzen 1800x and it cannot do the XTR non 2s filter even with cuda, in fact if I turn cuda offload off in HQP it won't run closed form either.  With Cuda off load the only filters I cannot run are the non-2s XTR (at 512). I do think the much higher L3 cache of the AMD processor does a sonic improvement over the older 6th and 7th gen intel's.  I haven't heard the new 8th gen with 12mb L3 which still trails the AMD's 16mb. 

 

What surprised me most with the addition of AO was the SQ difference between the digital filter settings, the are much more pronounced the any other program I have used such as HQP, change HQP filters and a non-audiophile would struggle to describe any difference, change the filter signature in AO from say 3B to 3C, not to mention 3B to 4B or another and a non-audiophile could describe some of the differences they heard.  Not sure if these differences are due to the T+A's excellent handling of 512 material, so I am curious if other non-T+A users hear the big differences in AO digital filters?

 

Thanks! This is great feedback.

[Quadman]

4 hours ago, sbenyo said:

Regarding AO and filters - I understand this makes the PC optimized for Audio

 

My IR was dropping every 30 minutes or so and then even in the non-Iso setting it still dropped.  Alex had me do the grounding trick but that did not work.  So he sent me V2 with works fine with no-Iso setting but drops with iso setting.  Maybe in summer with more humidity it will be fine we'll see.  My USB cable is elevated so no contact with carpeting not sure what causes the static.

 

If you use your PC for others things, gaming then I would not do AO.  It can shut down so many features that it probably will affect gaming.  It states very clearly during install use only on dedicated audio PC.  Try Fidelizer pro 8 it helps quite a bit and you can adjust filtering levels so when listening only then use Audiophile or maybe its called purist.  When gaming use consumer.  reboot required after each adjustment.

[rickca]

What is a V2 ISO REGEN and what is different from the original?

[Quadman]

16 minutes ago, rickca said:

What is a V2 ISO REGEN and what is different from the original?

 

I am not sure Alex told me that they slightly changed the circuit board to lessen the chance of static build up on the isolation chip he uses (forgot name) and that more folks should have less issues with the dropouts.  I can at least now use it with the non-iso setting just fine.  I'll try again soon with iso as it is finally warming up here in East TN and humidity levels are well north of 20% they were this winter..

[Allan F]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:09 AM, sbenyo said:

PCM vs DSD is different as I thing. They have different characteristics and it's hard to define which is better. It may be that DSD is technically better but I am no expert on it. For me PCM sounds more like SS and DSD is more tube. This is a matter of taste.

 

Many describe upsampling to DSD with the T+A as sounding more like vinyl.

[CatManDo]

On 2/21/2018 at 4:59 AM, Allan F said:

 

Many describe upsampling to DSD with the T+A as sounding more like vinyl.

 

The Filter 3 option for PCM on the DAC8 is also described like that. But I find it sounding artificially soft and smooth. Almost dull. I prefer Filter 4, which sounds more lively and firm.

 

This is how the manual explains them:

 

"Oversampling 3 (Bezier-interpolator plus IIR-filter) In this process an ideal Bezier interpolator is combined with what is known as an IIR filter. This eliminates the problematic pre-echo of the FIR method. This process produces highly „analogue“ system characteristics, with a sound quality and measured performance similar to those of good analogue record players."

 

"Oversampling 4 (pure Bezier interpolator) This process delivers a perfect reconstruction of the original music signal. It exhibits no pre- or post-echoes of any kind, and does not add coloration or timing errors to the original signal. In sonic terms this method offers an impressive blend of naturalness, good dynamics and accuracy."

 

I had the same impression of softness when upsampling 16/44 PCM to DSD128 or DSD256 (my current computer can't do DSD512) and running the T+A in DSD mode.

 

Of course this is a question of system synergy, recording type and personal taste.

[sbenyo]

For me when using PCM, I find filter 4 (Bez 2) - Pure Bézier the best for me. It is a combination of clear and crisp sound but not to much "SS" in characteristics. It just has the right bit of softness needed.

 

DSD compared to PCM is softer and even if it may be technically better, some people may not like it as much as PCM.

I think that in a very good high-end system all the options sound great and the softness of DSD or Bezier just adds the extra refinement that I like without hurting any clearness of crispness of the sound.

 

It is true that it the system itself and up sampling filters (HQP) makes major differences and how much impact the PCM filters or DSD have mainly depends on that. I do think that if the system is high-end PCM filter 4 and DSD should give the right extra edge. If they sound too soft something is wrong.

 

[simonklp]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Allan F said:

 

Many describe upsampling to DSD with the T+A as sounding more like vinyl.

 

I am not sure what vinyl sounds like exactly. But I concur that Redbook PCM conversion and upsampling to DSD512 by HQPlayer and playing through the T+A sounds very natural and lifelike with spacious soundstage.

[volpone]

On 08/02/2018 at 11:19 AM, bibo01 said:

I just spoke to the Amanero guy. 

The issue with Microsoft certificate has been finally solved. At the same time he is working on the new Windows driver (he is testing it right now) which he hopes to release by the end of the week. 

 

Hi @bibo01 , did you spoke with Amanero recently ? Still some hope ?

[FatalethaL]

Hi guys, i guess i am late for the party. But i was able to follow up with this thread, as well as the 70 pages long T+A DAC 8 DSD thread.

 

I intend to setup another PC server for possibly an incoming T+A DAC 8 DSD. The purpose of this PC server is to stream stereo music (upsampled DSD512), running Roon + HQP + AO, while being fanless at the same time.

 

Based on my idea above, what I have in mind now in terms of PC configuration would be an TOTL i7 (non-K) with windows server 2016 (GUI), with HDPlex.

 

However, I have concerns pertaining to heat/temperature when playing DSD512 music for say... more than 2 hours continuously.

1. Will the Intel i7 go beyond 80 degrees Celsius in fanless casing like HDPlex?
2. If I were to install heatsink + fan, how will it affect SQ?
3. Is there any other solution to work around the heating issue?
4. I also been told that i5 upsampling to DSD512 is not an issue, can some one verify?

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, FatalethaL said:

Hi guys, i guess i am late for the party. But i was able to follow up with this thread, as well as the 70 pages long T+A DAC 8 DSD thread.

 

I intend to setup another PC server for possibly an incoming T+A DAC 8 DSD. The purpose of this PC server is to stream stereo music (upsampled DSD512), running Roon + HQP + AO, while being fanless at the same time.

 

Based on my idea above, what I have in mind now in terms of PC configuration would be an TOTL i7 (non-K) with windows server 2016 (GUI), with HDPlex.

 

However, I have concerns pertaining to heat/temperature when playing DSD512 music for say... more than 2 hours continuously.

1. Will the Intel i7 go beyond 80 degrees Celsius in fanless casing like HDPlex?
2. If I were to install heatsink + fan, how will it affect SQ?
3. Is there any other solution to work around the heating issue?
4. I also been told that i5 upsampling to DSD512 is not an issue, can some one verify?

Many of us use Noctua fans with the low noise adapter and fan power filter from efidelity purchased on ebay. Use of an air cooling rig controls the temps nicely when up sampling for hours on end with a 6700k pegged at 4 GHz.

[FatalethaL]

19 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Many of us use Noctua fans with the low noise adapter and fan power filter from efidelity purchased on ebay. Use of an air cooling rig controls the temps nicely when up sampling for hours on end with a 6700k pegged at 4 GHz.

 

Great! thanks man! Sounds like its time to materialise this project with a NH-D15 too.

[lmitche]

10 hours ago, FatalethaL said:

 

Great! thanks man! Sounds like its time to materialise this project with a NH-D15 too.

A NH-C14S fits nicely in a Silverstone Grandia case. You don't need any case fans, so best to remove them to open things up.

[Quadman]

I use the NH-D9L fan in my Grandia 09 case and it has kept my 6700K processor very cool and now my ryzen 1800x also very cool (usually in the mid-40C while doing DSD512 for hours on end) that said I do have 5 additional case fans installed for cooling all low noise and SPL 1 meter from PC is 32 db according to a phone SPL meter.  The D9L fan is about $20-30 cheaper than the C14S and even a bit lower in profile.  I also have 4 sticks of ram in the Pc (corsair Vengeance) so it does provide enough clearance.  Even with he fans I have SQ is breathtaking.

[lmitche]

23 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I use the NH-D9L fan in my Grandia 09 case and it has kept my 6700K processor very cool and now my ryzen 1800x also very cool (usually in the mid-40C while doing DSD512 for hours on end) that said I do have 5 additional case fans installed for cooling all low noise and SPL 1 meter from PC is 32 db according to a phone SPL meter.  The D9L fan is about $20-30 cheaper than the C14S and even a bit lower in profile.  I also have 4 sticks of ram in the Pc (corsair Vengeance) so it does provide enough clearance.  Even with he fans I have SQ is breathtaking.

I hadn't realized the d9l fan is so short. Cool.

 

The trade-off, money aside, is the c14s cools the ram, and in my case, an m.2 slot as well.

 

Anyway, two great choices for you.

[dmance]

For those who believe that cpu/cache/ssd/OS alter the bit perfect nature of usb transmitted audio ...I say: you are deluded, sorry.

Don't repeat the faulty "digital is just analog" misunderstanding of what is going on. Bits are bits all the way from the algorithm to the DAC input.  Period.

 

For those willing to become enlightened, put several ferrites on your USB cable to squash the high freq noise mucking up the analog portion of your DAC. Then you will hear no difference.

 

Over on HeadFi you will find plenty of posts....

[musicbuff]

I've heard from a few skeptics on fuses, but tried Synergistic Research Blue in my Primare Pre32 and heard a fuller more nuanced sound from my music. For me it is a more simple and less costly alternative to drop-outs and static build. I am now curious about the Audiophile Optimizer program. Can anyone tell me if it is used "instead of" or "in addition to" HQPlayer? My computer is dedicated for music use only. How exactly does the AO program work?

[sdolezalek]

1 hour ago, dmance said:

For those who believe that cpu/cache/ssd/OS alter the bit perfect nature of usb transmitted audio ...I say: you are deluded, sorry.

Don't repeat the faulty "digital is just analog" misunderstanding of what is going on. Bits are bits all the way from the algorithm to the DAC input.  Period.

 

"Period" is a pretty definitive attitude for someone with 7 total posts... If you spend more time on CA you'll find that most here agree with the "bits-is-bits perspective," but also acknowledge that the analog portions of audio equipment can be affected by more than just the arriving flow of digits.  We pretty much agree that if data errors were introduced into the digital bit stream that it would cause far bigger problems in the data realm than the music realm.  But we also tend to agree that in the music realm there are other things that can affect the sound of a piece of equipment and that some of those can travel from one piece of equipment to another. 

 

Are you suggesting that a PC, NAS, or DAC cannot possibly be affected by anything other than the stream of digits it processes? If so, it would imply that there cannot be qualitative sound differences between DACs; as even the cheapest DAC can correctly decode the bit stream without error.  

[andru26]

4 minutes ago, musicbuff said:

I've heard from a few skeptics on fuses, but tried Synergistic Research Blue in my Primare Pre32 and heard a fuller more nuanced sound from my music. For me it is a more simple and less costly alternative to drop-outs and static build. I am now curious about the Audiophile Optimizer program. Can anyone tell me if it is used "instead of" or "in addition to" HQPlayer? My computer is dedicated for music use only. How exactly does the AO program work?

 

In a regular Win environment there may be hundreds or thousands  of background processes, which happen at any time. AO is a software that can be used with Window 10 or windows server 2012/2016, which basically configures Windows so that all processes which are not related to audio are disabled. This means that all your computer resources are fully concentrated on decoding your digital music and nothing else. The result is a more detailed, spatious, clean, punchy etc music reproduction. 

AO can sound best when used with Windows Server in Core Mode, where everything you do is using Win Command Prompt.

 

If you went so far as using SR Fuses, then you definitelly have to go for AO. You will find some informative videos on youtube on it.