TIDAL "Master"? Is this MQA on TIDAL?

[musickid]

set to exclusive mode i am now getting 32/96 listening to soul brothers by ray charles. does this sound correct?? MODI MULTIBIT DAC.

[tobes]

I have been playing around with Tidal's Master albums for two days now. I am using a MBP>PS Audio PWD II which is not MQA compliant.

I certainly hear a difference between the Master versions and CDs that I ripped and replayed using JRMC21 or the old HiFi versions available on Tidal.

But I think I clearly prefer the sound I hear from the Tidal standard Hifi version over the new Master version? The master version sounds muffled and blurred in comparison?

 

I've only made brief comparisons using Tidal Master version of FM Rumours/'Never going back again' to HiFi version. The Master version sounded more open, focused and detailed in this comparo.

Chain is Mac Mini(JS2 LPSU)>iFi iusb3>Grace m920>Utopia

m920 indicates a sampling rate of 96Khz for Master and 44Khz for HiFi.

[TubeDriver]

I am listening to this song as I type this. The CD version has a bit more stridency in his vocals. Vocals, horns, drum everything comes out dead center from between speakers almost like a mono recording.

 

Master version recesses vocals back but tonally I prefer it. The horns and drums have more body. I still hear everything coming from a pretty tight area dead center between speakers. Vocal reverb stands out more in the Master version.

 

In this case, I prefer the Master version.

 

Good performance.

 

Please someone listen to Wilson Pickett 'Wicked Pickett' album track 'Everybody needs somebody to love'...two versions (Master and CD) sooooo different....one of the two completely messed up with channel separation....

[ThurstonX]

set to exclusive mode i am now getting 32/96 listening to soul brothers by ray charles. does this sound correct?? MODI MULTIBIT DAC.

Briefly, no, if you're really seeing 32-bits. Schiit DACs don't support 32-bits (max. 24-bit and up to 192 kHz sample rate). So, if you're seeing that, something must be... not upsampling, but doing some bit-depth conversion (I suppose there could be upsampling going on, too, but the bit-depth is off for sure).

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ related, but separate ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I've got a Bifrost Multibit and I'm wondering where you are seeing 32/96. That may explain the above. I'm currently trying to figure out a way to test TIDAL "Master" streams, but I lack a DAC with an LED readout or anything similar. I've tried using my M-Audio Delta AP 192 soundcard in a PC via S/P-DIF Out to an even older Kenwood AVR, which will do auto-detect on incoming signals and switch over to Stereo mode when it detects 96 kHz. Unfortunately, the only way to get 96 kHz out to the AVR is by setting the M-Audio control panel to output at 96 kHz. I've done tests using Exclusive checked and unchecked, and it doesn't change.

 

The only test I can think of at this point is to run the TIDAL app on the PC connected to the Bifrost, toggle the Exclusive setting, and listen for the DAC's telltale *click* when it changes samplerates. I'm familiar with that *click* in mixed-mode playlists via foobar2000. It's easy enough to compare a HIFI to a MASTER. If I hear the *click*, at least I know the TIDAL app is decoding the Master and passing it to the Bifrost via USB. My other DACs (decidedly cheaper) can't be tested at all, at least not in a way I can think of.

[ThurstonX]

One thing that comes to mind reading about vastly different experiences between HIFI and Master streams is that they may be from different (re)masters, even mixes (which would necessitate a new master), esp. when the times of the same track differ by 5 secs.

 

I haven't seen that mentioned in this thread, so thought I'd throw it out there.

[musickid]

My schitt modi multibit shows 32bit/24 quite clearly in audiomidisetup on imac. i have also been told that my dac from schitt has a 32 bit usb receiver.??? upto 32/192 incl. 24 bit if i want.

[ThurstonX]

My schitt modi multibit shows 32bit/24 quite clearly in audiomidisetup on imac. i have also been told that my dac from schitt has a 32 bit usb receiver.??? upto 32/192 incl. 24 bit if i want.

 

Ah, so your Mac is reporting it. Not sure where on my Windows PC I'd see that info. I'll have to research it. re: Schiit DACs, unless they changed their policy recently, pretty sure they didn't implement 32-bit support in any of their DACs, even though the receivers and chips are capable. They consider that a "unicorn" format. Ditto to MQA, so don't hold your breath there, but... never say never. Schiit's documentation is pretty clear on their site. If you can cite where they say they support 32-bit, please do post it. Also, I'd be surprised if any MQA files, esp. those delivered via TIDAL, are 32-bit.

[ThurstonX]

My schitt modi multibit shows 32bit/24 quite clearly in audiomidisetup on imac. i have also been told that my dac from schitt has a 32 bit usb receiver.??? upto 32/192 incl. 24 bit if i want.

 

Schiit Audio, Headphone amps and DACs made in USA.

 

click on the Specs tab. Maybe your Mac is set to process audio in 32-bit floating point or something. I have audio editing programs that will operate in 32-bit floating point, which is fine for editing, but not really practical for distribution.

[ThurstonX]

I'm currently trying to figure out a way to test TIDAL "Master" streams...

The only test I can think of at this point is to run the TIDAL app on the PC connected to the Bifrost, toggle the Exclusive setting, and listen for the DAC's telltale *click* when it changes samplerates...

 

Well, that's embarrassing, but I figure I better address it: of course if Exclusive is not selected, the device is in Shared mode, and thus the setting in the device's properties takes over. D'oh! Too much reading and thinking about all this, I missed the obvious. My quick Bifrost test blew away the cobwebs and jogged my memory. Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy proved a good test, since the two "Deluxe" listings (HIFI and MASTER) use different sample rates (still not sure what the MASTER is, but I'll assume 24-bit 96 kHz); i.e., I heard the *click* in Exclusive mode when switching between them, but no *click* when disabling it.

 

All this MQA schiit can get quite complicated. Anyway, enough of all that. The MASTER sounds great, and even better after running Fidelizer Pro before launching TIDAL. Don't think I'll be upgrading my Stack o' Schiit (Lyr for amp, running some nice KEN-RAD 6SN7GTs ;-) anytime soon.

[ThurstonX]

My schitt modi multibit shows 32bit/24 quite clearly in audiomidisetup on imac. i have also been told that my dac from schitt has a 32 bit usb receiver.??? upto 32/192 incl. 24 bit if i want.

 

Couldn't figure out how to edit my earlier post. Just came across this: An audiophile’s look at the audio stack in Windows Vista and 7 « Trying To Be Helpful

 

and while it relates to Windows, it may point to why your iMac is reporting 32-bit output. Specifically:

 

"The new audio stack automatically upconverts all streams to a 32-bit floating-point sample depth"

 

This happened in Vista, and migrated on to Windows 7, and perhaps beyond. So, maybe your iMac is upconverting. Your Modi is not rendering at 32-bit, however (see Schiit's specs).

[musickid]

HI Thurston,

 

this is the reply i got on headfi. i am not that tech savvy but still i want to ensure my dac is operating correctly.

QU:When streaming masters on tidal my modimultibit gives me 32/96. is this okay as ive read mqa should read 24/96 or 24/88 but im getting 32/96.

 

REPLY:The bit rate being different, as long as it is the same or higher, doesn't affect anything at all. The USB receiver in the Schiit DACs is a 32 bit receiver and the computer will connect to it showing that.

[ThurstonX]

HI Thurston,

 

this is the reply i got on headfi. i am not that tech savvy but still i want to ensure my dac is operating correctly.

QU:When streaming masters on tidal my modimultibit gives me 32/96. is this okay as ive read mqa should read 24/96 or 24/88 but im getting 32/96.

 

REPLY:The bit rate being different, as long as it is the same or higher, doesn't affect anything at all. The USB receiver in the Schiit DACs is a 32 bit receiver and the computer will connect to it showing that.

 

That makes sense, just understand that the DAC chip itself (not the USB receiver) is programmed per Schiit's specs: i.e., 24-bit 192 kHz max. So if you happened to input a 32-bit file, it either won't play, or will have 8 bits truncated (I've never bothered trying). As the only way you're likely to have any 32-bit files is if you created them yourself in a music editing app, or did some foolish upconverting, the most you're going to throw at your Modi 2 Multibit are 24-bit files. So, ignore the 32-bit thing, as it has nothing to do with the music your playing, and enjoy the music. Like I said, this schiit can be confusing.

[musickid]

for 32 to show up 32/44.1 hifi or 32/96 mqa would be the same for all modimultibit owners using tidal exclusive? if the max is 24bit why is it showing the 32bit of the usb receiver then?

[ThurstonX]

for 32 to show up 32/44.1 hifi or 32/96 mqa would be the same for all modimultibit owners using tidal exclusive? if the max is 24bit why is it showing the 32bit of the usb receiver then?

 

That's a question for Apple or some knowledgeable Mac users. Also, I'll bet my house that TIDAL has no 32-bit Master streams. What you need to understand is how your DAC works, not what your iMac is telling you. Schiit makes your DAC. I gave you a link. Go for it. Also, you should try to educate yourself a bit more on digital audio and computer audio basics. It takes a lot of reading, but if you're going to participate in discussions about it, it's best to have a solid basic understanding. That isn't meant as an insult or a slight. Again, this schiit can get very confusing very fast, and no one is born knowing it. And, as fun as they are, don't rely on threads in forums for your education, or you'll never get anywhere. There are plenty of good articles on this stuff freely available on Al Gore's Amazing Internet.

 

Have fun :-)

[musickid]

thanks i hope that its normal for the 32bit to show in tidal exclusive. under normal play i set it to 16/44.1 for tidal hifi/ 32 only shows in exclusive mode.

[Cebolla]

That makes sense, just understand that the DAC chip itself (not the USB receiver) is programmed per Schiit's specs: i.e., 24-bit 192 kHz max. So if you happened to input a 32-bit file, it either won't play, or will have 8 bits truncated (I've never bothered trying). As the only way you're likely to have any 32-bit files is if you created them yourself in a music editing app, or did some foolish upconverting, the most you're going to throw at your Modi 2 Multibit are 24-bit files. So, ignore the 32-bit thing, as it has nothing to do with the music your playing, and enjoy the music. Like I said, this schiit can be confusing.

The pedant in me is contributing to this education by highlighting that DACS don't actually input audio files (let alone play them). Hence the need to be careful in the terms we use, so as to not to inadvertently perpetuate a myth.

[ThurstonX]

I'm contributing to this education by highlighting that DACS don't actually input audio files. Hence the need to be careful in the terms we use, so as to not to inadvertently perpetuate a myth.

Sorry, I thought it was clear I was referring to a file being input into a DAC so the DAC could do its job (i.e., Convert from Digital to Analog). I suppose I could have been extra pedantic and written, "So if you happened to input a 32-bit file into you DAC" ... but then that's too many "in" sounds, so I'd have written, "So if you happened to send a 32-bit file to your DAC" ... or "So if you happened to try to play a 32-bit file" ... cuz the "file" thing assumes it's in a digital format.

 

See, this is why a basic understanding of digital and computer audio helps. Instead, I have to write this post clarifying what should have been clear ;-)

[Cebolla]

Still doesn't help. Since it's the realtime digital audio signal that is actually received by the DAC (which comes from the audio file player's output further up the chain, ie, the audio file has already been decoded & played), just call it an 'audio signal' or just plain 'signal' (and definitely don't call it a 'file').

[ThurstonX]

Still doesn't help. Since it's the realtime digital audio signal that is actually received by the DAC (which comes from the audio file player's output further up the chain, ie, the audio file has already been decoded & played), just call it an 'audio signal' or just plain 'signal' (and definitely don't call it a 'file').

 

True enough. Digital Audio Signal. My brain is firmly in foobar2000 land where I'm playing digital audio files which have whatever bit-depth and sample rate. As you note, that's been decoded and "played" before it hits the DAC. All this TIDAL streaming schiit is anathema to my usual listening habits. But as you note, the principle is the same.

 

Geez, hope we didn't confuse the kid too much with all this talk ;-)

 

Question for you, since I'm looking for a straight-forward answer, and haven't come across it yet (learning a lot about Win7 audio from the Audacity wiki, though). If I'm running my audio playback in Shared mode (TIDAL won't let me choose exclusive for my M-Audio soundcard's S/P-DIF out; only lists System Default, in fact), system sounds are disabled, and no other apps are accessing the audio device, and the audio device is set to 24-bit 96000 Hz, is the Win7 mixer messing with the audio in any way IF the decoded output is also 24-bit 96000 Hz? Since the bit-depth and sample rate match, my hope is that the mixer is not touching it, but it's Windows, so ya never know.

 

Interesting anecdote re: the TIDAL Windows desktop app. My PC has multiple audio devices, with the aforementioned S/P-DIF out being the default. As noted, TIDAL doesn't show any of them (No output devices found). Just for schiits and grins I plugged in my portable HiFimeDIY Sabre U2 DAC (USB) and ran a cable to my AVR. Suddenly, all those devices (M-Audio, AMD HDMI, Realtek, et al.) showed up in TIDAL. And sure enough, when I removed the USB DAC, they all vanished. Thus, if I want my AVR to do the D/A conversion, I have to set my M-Audio card to 96000 Hz, assuming I'm listening to a MASTER stream from TIDAL, but even then it's in Shared mode (so, even TIDAL HIFI streams get sent 24/96). Thus, my question about the Win7 mixer.

 

If you can answer that, or link to a resource, I'd be much obliged. I wonder if TIDAL would consider that behavior a bug...

 

Cheers.

[musickid]

QU TO SCHITT AUDIO: modi multibit

Problem: when i stream tidal in exclusive mode (here tidal has control of dac) i get 32/44.1 for hifi streaming and 32/96 for mqa streaming. i would like to check that these readings i get on audiomidisetup on my imac are okay. the reason being the specs for modi only show 24 bit but i am getting 32 bit. someone has told me that the modi has a 32 bit usb receiver hence the readout. could you please confirm this is all ok. many thanks.

Source: imac

 

ANSWER FROM SCHITT AUDIO:

That is correct, the Modi can handle 32bit input though there is no advantage or disadvantage there.

 

[sonanceaudio]

I played around with the Tidal desktop app yesterday after reading about the master audio option (I've been a subscriber for a while), and while I thought some of the master audio options sounded good, I'm not using a MQA dac yet, so only partial benefit.

 

What I was wondering is if there's a way to tell if you are on the master version of an album, or if the album or song you're listening to is an MQA track, if you didn't browse to it from Discover > Albums > Master? Any ideas?

[ejk1]

I played around with the Tidal desktop app yesterday after reading about the master audio option (I've been a subscriber for a while), and while I thought some of the master audio options sounded good, I'm not using a MQA dac yet, so only partial benefit.

 

What I was wondering is if there's a way to tell if you are on the master version of an album, or if the album or song you're listening to is an MQA track, if you didn't browse to it from Discover > Albums > Master? Any ideas?

It should display either the Hifi logo or the Mqa logo

[jhwalker]

I played around with the Tidal desktop app yesterday after reading about the master audio option (I've been a subscriber for a while), and while I thought some of the master audio options sounded good, I'm not using a MQA dac yet, so only partial benefit.

 

What I was wondering is if there's a way to tell if you are on the master version of an album, or if the album or song you're listening to is an MQA track, if you didn't browse to it from Discover > Albums > Master? Any ideas?

Only be initializing playback. You'll see "HiFi" (normal, Redbook) or "Master" (MQA) in the bottom right hand corner of the player.

 

They need to make it easier to search for and easily identify MQA content.

[ThurstonX]

I played around with the Tidal desktop app yesterday after reading about the master audio option (I've been a subscriber for a while), and while I thought some of the master audio options sounded good, I'm not using a MQA dac yet, so only partial benefit.

 

What I was wondering is if there's a way to tell if you are on the master version of an album, or if the album or song you're listening to is an MQA track, if you didn't browse to it from Discover > Albums > Master? Any ideas?

As noted above, look for MASTER. At this point, if you're browsing an artist, you have to play a track. If there's only one version of an album listed, it's likely not a MASTER. Even when there are two versions listed, both might be HIFI. Again, gotta play a track and look at what's reported by the player to tell. They really need to improve that.

 

This is an on-going project to list MQA albums available in TIDAL. It's not complete, and obviously will need contributions as more are discovered and added to TIDAL's catalog.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VtON9VjMAt3uyHC2-Oo2MjIa3orv9DKZfwiRQKmTAA/htmlview

 

In order to contribute you just need a Google account. Remove the "htmlview" from the above URL. When editing, find the artist, add a row, and fill in the two cells. If you adjust the width of the columns, try not to make the first one too wide, as it affects the htmlview output. If you change it, try to change it back to something reasonable (so you can see a few columns in a normal web browser view) before closing the page.

 

FWIW, this seems to be centered on US TIDAL subscribers. Distribution rights mean that TIDAL users in other countries won't see all the same albums as MASTERs. There are columns (starting at 'Q') for users in other countries to verify if a MASTER listed in the main column(s) is available in their country. At this point only UK users seem to have contributed.

 

Hope that helps.

[nightenrock]

I'm running the Tidal Hi Fi app from a Mac Mini into a Mytek 192 DSD. Everything I play through the Tidal App shows as 192K on the Mytek. When I try to play the files through the Audirvana Plus App's Tidal interface, they load painfully slow and only play at 24/48.

 

Man, this is frustrating. I'd like to know what quality files are being passed through to my DAC from Tidal. Is there no way of knowing? I assume it is taking over the DAC and upsampling things to 192, right?

 

I have Tidal set to exclusive mode.