Sonicorbiter - Native DSD support

[ted_b]

Update: In DoP (Linux) there are no harsh pops/cracks at any change, just a slight audible tick when starting the playlist. I can only assume that the dac sees the PCM vehicle in DoP and stays there, even when unpackaging the DSD material? Dunno. I like the of SQ native direct Linux rather than DoP here, but it is quite a pop/crack. And my DoP only goes to DSD256 ("only" )

 

Steve, if you set HQP to DirectSDM, does the HQP/uRendu/MSB also pop at each DSD bit rate change? Mine does, as mentioned earlier.

[Mercman]

Update: In DoP (Linux) there are no harsh pops/cracks at any change, just a slight audible tick when starting the playlist. I can only assume that the dac sees the PCM vehicle in DoP and stays there, even when unpackaging the DSD material? Dunno. I like the of SQ native direct Linux rather than DoP here, but it is quite a pop/crack. And my DoP only goes to DSD256 ("only" )

 

Steve, if you set HQP to DirectSDM, does the HQP/uRendu/MSB also pop at each DSD bit rate change? Mine does, as mentioned earlier.

 

I just tried it. The answer is yes.

[JohnSwenson]

This issue of pops with DSD is a very big issue with DSD. In PCM a stream of zeros outputs ground, so if something stops the data flow you just get ground out of the DAC. But with DSD a zero is full negative voltage and a one is full positive voltage. The ONLY way to get ground is to send a pulse stream that alternates between zero and one. If the data stream stops, even for a very short period of time you wind up with full negative voltage on the output. (which produces the very loud pop)

 

Any DSD DAC should not assume that the signal coming in is never going to stop, it should implement a circuit that keeps watch on the input stream and if it ever stops either immediately switches to a stream of alternating zeros and ones, OR turns on a transistor that clamps the output to ground. An output relay is not fast enough to protect against this.

 

Having built several DSD DACs I am VERY familiar with what can happen if you don't get this right!

 

John S.

[Mercman]

Thanks for your insight John.

[Priaptor]

The only small issue I am having with the native DSD for MSB Tech is that if play Roon / HQPlayer and stream from the HQPlayer DSD256 to the microRendu, I get a "click" sound when starting a new album.

 

I had that even with using my CAPS as the NAA so I am not sure it is a uRendu issue.

 

I also had it when using the T&A DAC 8 with my caps as the NAA.

[ted_b]

Well, if the pops are a dac issue (as John alludes to, and I've heard many many times before) then I feel good, cuz Tim (distributor) and Jeff (designer) are very quick to resolve the early issues. However, I suspect is it might be more generic (or specific to HQPlayer, which I will try to test), as both the MSB and the Holo are acting exactly the same way.

[vortecjr]

Calling these native DSD updates a driver is not really proper. Native DSD support with the format we use is built into the Linux Kernel. All we are doing going going forward is adding support for specific devices. What happens is in a nut shell is the Kernel identifies your DAC as supporting the native DSD format we use and it enables it for streaming on your device. The comment above about the DAC having to mute is correct and it needs to be done very quickly or get some level of noise. Some devices use an FPGA for this task and it can delay the signal, some devices do not have anything special. Andrew from SGC calls DSD, "The Wild Wild West." Firmware updates on the devices could help and so can various sync delays within the server. Try playing with the sync delays in Roon and HQ Player.

[vortecjr]

Well, if the pops are a dac issue (as John alludes to, and I've heard many many times before) then I feel good, cuz Tim (distributor) and Jeff (designer) are very quick to resolve the early issues. However, I suspect is it might be more generic (or specific to HQPlayer, which I will try to test), as both the MSB and the Holo are acting exactly the same way.

 

Part of the complication is that the fix has come from various places such as the DAC, server, player, and the file itself. All these fixes may or may not play nice together.

[jtwrace]

Why doesn't the Latest Version available not show up in the software update page but yet if I process an update it just updated to 2.3 from 2.2?

[lmitche]

I had that even with using my CAPS as the NAA so I am not sure it is a uRendu issue.

 

I also had it when using the T&A DAC 8 with my caps as the NAA.

On Windows 10 and Linux the IFI microIDSD has the same popping issues with native DSD despite firmware updates to help improve the situation. There also seems to be various state transitions in HQplayer operation that can lead to large pops and others where state transitions are well handled. Xing out of HQplayer can produce a huge thump in the wrong circumstances.

 

It can be a bit like "walking in eggshells" to avoid these situations in HQplayer. Happily the Roon/HQplayer interface seems to avoid these cases.

 

Lastly ground loops/ leakage current, or whatever we want to call it, greatly influences the magnitude of these pops. I just re-wired my subs from using line level inputs to speaker level inputs. SQ improved and the level of pops / ticks at the start and end of play has diminished greatly, however the frequency of pops / ticks is the same.

 

The wonders never stop.

[vortecjr]

Why doesn't the Latest Version available not show up in the software update page but yet if I process an update it just updated to 2.3 from 2.2?

 

I just posted about this in the main thread:)

[Superdad]

Having built several DSD DACs I am VERY familiar with what can happen if you don't get this right!

 

Yes, and having been visited with said DACs I have the blown out woofers to be familiar with the effect!

 

Larry mentioned the iFi micro iDSD with HQ Player. I picked up one of those DACs a couple of months ago, and I too have to be very careful about starts/stops and track choices when playing a playlist with a mix of DSD and PCM tracks--even with SDM set and running DoP (though I do have Direct SDM set). I don't have any more woofers to spare!

 

[sorry for the off topic post. I do also have and enjoy a MicroRendu. Will be putting it back in this weekend and will see if my new 5K Retina iMac will do DSD 512. ]

[lotriwer]

Just got my microRendu and trying to get a DSD signal from HQPlayer to T+A Dac8 DSD. Is it compatible with this DAC? I can only send PCM for some reason.

[lotriwer]

Is it possible to play native DSD512 to T+A DAC 8 DSD?

[firedog]

Until T+A tells us otherwise, the DAC 8 DSD doesn't support Linux based units like the mR, as there are no Linux compatible drivers for the DAC. If you are managing to send PCM, apparently it is somehow interfacing with the basic audio setup. (Does it also work with PCM above 24/96?).

I don't think DSD will work at all unless drivers come along.

[ted_b]

Until T+A tells us otherwise, the DAC 8 DSD doesn't support Linux based units like the mR

 

Certainly the Amanero board firmware currently isn't updated yet to do raw DSD512 in Linux, but I assume that the T+A (and any other Amanero-based dac, like my DaisY1 in for review) will do DoP to DSD128 at least. And PCM too.

[vortecjr]

Is it possible to play native DSD512 to T+A DAC 8 DSD?

 

If it's based on the Amanero board then native DSD will first have to wait for Amanero to update their firmware.

[lotriwer]

If it's based on the Amanero board then native DSD will first have to wait for Amanero to update their firmware.

 

Thank you. Do you know if this can be expected in the near future?

[lotriwer]

Until T+A tells us otherwise, the DAC 8 DSD doesn't support Linux based units like the mR, as there are no Linux compatible drivers for the DAC. If you are managing to send PCM, apparently it is somehow interfacing with the basic audio setup. (Does it also work with PCM above 24/96?).

I don't think DSD will work at all unless drivers come along.

 

Thank you.

[lotriwer]

Certainly the Amanero board firmware currently isn't updated yet to do raw DSD512 in Linux, but I assume that the T+A (and any other Amanero-based dac, like my DaisY1 in for review) will do DoP to DSD128 at least. And PCM too.

 

Yes, it does DoP to DSD128 and PCM.

[Joaovieira]

This issue of pops with DSD is a very big issue with DSD. In PCM a stream of zeros outputs ground, so if something stops the data flow you just get ground out of the DAC. But with DSD a zero is full negative voltage and a one is full positive voltage. The ONLY way to get ground is to send a pulse stream that alternates between zero and one. If the data stream stops, even for a very short period of time you wind up with full negative voltage on the output. (which produces the very loud pop)

 

Any DSD DAC should not assume that the signal coming in is never going to stop, it should implement a circuit that keeps watch on the input stream and if it ever stops either immediately switches to a stream of alternating zeros and ones, OR turns on a transistor that clamps the output to ground. An output relay is not fast enough to protect against this.

 

Having built several DSD DACs I am VERY familiar with what can happen if you don't get this right!

 

John S.

 

I had this issue last weekend twice. And they all happened when I changed the music path from one NAS to another and Roon was still updating the tracks. I played tracks that were on the list and almost damaged my speakers. They start ok and then something is lost and loud and constant pops come.

[vortecjr]

I had this issue last weekend twice. And they all happened when I changed the music path from one NAS to another and Roon was still updating the tracks. I played tracks that were on the list and almost damaged my speakers. They start ok and then something is lost and loud and constant pops come.

 

This sounds more like a server issue. Check that the servers are within the minimum specification posted by Roon on their website.

[Joaovieira]

This sounds more like a server issue. Check that the servers are within the minimum specification posted by Roon on their website.

 

I am using Sonictransporter for Roon Core and a very high specified PC for HQPlayer.

 

once the track list is updated on Roon, no more issue.

[vortecjr]

I am using Sonictransporter for Roon Core and a very high specified PC for HQPlayer.

 

once the track list is updated on Roon, no more issue.

 

The sonicTransporter is different and lower power compared to the sonicTransporter i5. Each one has a specific limit on the size of the library. For simplicity I just recommend the sonicTransporter i5 to my customers.

[pbelo]

The sonicTransporter is different and lower power compared to the sonicTransporter i5. Each one has a specific limit on the size of the library. For simplicity I just recommend the sonicTransporter i5 to my customers.

 

Those new DAC's are supported by Rendu with native DSD playback up to 512 ?