Sonore microRendu

[earnmyturns]

Sorry but your "fair amount of development costs" is similar to the amount of work that is put into things like Volumio and Rune. No disrespect to Jesus as you are also paying for support, but the SonoreOrbiter SE is a Cubox ($150) with open source software pre-installed.

I'll tell you something about development costs. I've had a Cubox with Volumio 1.55 for almost one year, and it has had constant problems with playing albums straight through via UPnP/DLNA, with track skips and repeats being the most frequent issues, but random reboots being not unusual. I had been hoping that Volumio 2 might correct these problems, but it is not ready for prime time yet. In contrast, the SOtM sMS-100 I've had for a longer time never had any problems with UPnP/DLNA. The time I spent managing/debugging Volumio is worth a whole lot more than the difference in cost between the Cubox and the sMS-100. So, when the Sonicorbiter SE was announced, I got one right away to replace the Cubox+Volumio, and it has been working like a charm. No skips, to repeats, trivial configuration (in contrast to Volumio) just sits there moving bits reliably without interfering with my music listening. The critical difference is that Sonore's business depends on their reputation for putting out a reliable product, so they need to do a lot more integration testing between hardware and software -- and factor those costs into their pricing -- than what is practical the open-source world, where most integration testing is the work of gifted but unpaid amateurs.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Distributions come a dime a dozen. There are many out there that work reliably. Sorry you picked the wrong one.

 

SonicOrbiter may have some cool features, but the real value here is in the hardware.

Of course, as John Swenson indicated, the software has been tuned to work with the hardware (see his post about the chip's clock). But my point is, making this type of software is not rocket science and there are many out there - that is not what I, personally, would pay big bucks for.

[earnmyturns]

Distributions come a dime a dozen. There are many out there that work reliably. Sorry you picked the wrong one.

 

SonicOrbiter may have some cool features, but the real value here is in the hardware.

Of course, as John Swenson indicated, the software has been tuned to work with the hardware (see his post about the chip's clock). But my point is, making this type of software is not rocket science and there are many out there - that is not what I, personally, would pay big bucks for.

I don't know your experience with software development. Mine goes back to the late 70s, and has included much software critical to services that are used every day by orders-of-magnitude more people than any of those audio-oriented distros. My time is way more valuable than what's required to mess around with distros that have not been properly integrated with their hardware, or do not have the right features pre-configured. It's not a matter of rocket science, it's a matter of careful, deliberate packaging and testing, which are not properly appreciated, especially in the OSS world. In my (long) experience, packaging, testing, and maintenance cost a lot more than writing the relevant application-specific code. Those costs are reflected in all commercial integrations of software and hardware, at least those from companies that have not gone broke from underestimating their non-coding costs (a pretty common problem for small software-dependent companies).

[BobSherman]

How about we let this play itself out and change the topic? I'm getting close to setting the price on the micoRendu. What do you guys think it will be?

 

Jesus R

 

 

$99.95

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I don't know your experience with software development. Mine goes back to the late 70s, and has included much software critical to services that are used every day by orders-of-magnitude more people than any of those audio-oriented distros. My time is way more valuable than what's required to mess around with distros that have not been properly integrated with their hardware, or do not have the right features pre-configured. It's not a matter of rocket science, it's a matter of careful, deliberate packaging and testing, which are not properly appreciated, especially in the OSS world. In my (long) experience, packaging, testing, and maintenance cost a lot more than writing the relevant application-specific code. Those costs are reflected in all commercial integrations of software and hardware, at least those from companies that have not gone broke from underestimating their non-coding costs (a pretty common problem for small software-dependent companies).

 

I get your point, but when it comes to audio playback, the software has been out there for years, and it works well !

SonicOrbiter looks great, easy, and reliable - kudos to those who developped it. To me, it is not the selling point, that's all.

 

I understand why some would buy the SE. I personally have no interest in it, and the main attraction here, to me, is the hardware.

 

Moreover, it is hard to please all, and I wish the rendu was sold without the system, as it does not cover all bases for me (for example, as dicussed previously, the fact that you cannot run MPD with access to a network shared drive... or a local drive - that means you are stuck using upnp).

[YashN]

So you're suggesting the MicroRendu should equal the sound quality of a purpose built PC specified as you outlined?

 

The uRendu is more likely to exceed the quality of a general-purpose, even if purpose-built PC for audiophile purposes. It is a specialised device.

[YashN]

It's not a matter of rocket science, it's a matter of careful, deliberate packaging and testing, which are not properly appreciated, especially in the OSS world.

 

More a matter of economics, because OSS has a lot of volunteers working freely, but remember there are also companies which contribute.

 

Additionally, OSS is used in NASA space missions and many more mission-critical systems, including defence.

 

If you're unhappy about the quality, take the source code and contribute too. That's the spirit.

[YashN]

I really don't think there is anything unique in the microRendu concept. Sonore have come up with a custom SBC but there is nothing stopping other manufacturers going the same route.

 

Well not really. The Squeezebox (long before it was owned by Logitech) was completely bespoke software and hardware where as the SonicOrbiter SE could be copied by anyone buying CuBox or other boards off the shelf. Yes you need someone who is skilled at putting together a Linux distribution and writing scripts but that's all.

 

Eloise, you may have missed that the microRendu hardware will be built specifically for audiophile purposes, i.e. motherboard and selected components, so it's not just a question of reproducing the software stack here.

[BobSherman]

How about we let this play itself out and change the topic? I'm getting close to setting the price on the micoRendu. What do you guys think it will be?

 

Jesus R

 

Realistically... I think it will be $595.

[earnmyturns]

More a matter of economics, because OSS has a lot of volunteers working freely, but remember there are also companies which contribute.

 

Additionally, OSS is used in NASA space missions and many more mission-critical systems, including defence.

 

If you're unhappy about the quality, take the source code and contribute too. That's the spirit.

I've worked over decades at multiple places that used and contributed to OSS. Those OSS activities were supported by something else than OSS development. In NASA and DoD's case, and in my own academic grant-supported work, by taxpayers. In industry, by service revenues. In the case of audio, where's the big side revenue stream to support high-quality OSS development and integration with different hardware platforms? Yup, there isn't one, which is why the only way to get the resources to achieve good quality is for hardware vendors to support their OSS development by charging premium on the hardware they sell. Basic software development economics, which I've learned and verified many times in over 30 years in software-based R&D. As for contributing to audio OSS, I'd rather pay a premium to hardware vendors like Sonore who have specialized knowledge, tooling, and experimental platforms to contribute themselves. My experience with their software in SoTM and Sonicorbiter gear tells me that they know what they are doing, and I gladly pay to help them continue.

[vortecjr]

Eloise, your comments are in fact very disrespectful and intentionally so. We have put countless hours, late nights, long weekends, and a fair about of money into producing the microRendu and I'm very proud of what we have accomplished. I'm actually embarrassed for my team that you so quickly discount what we are doing.

 

Jesus R

[bibo01]

The Sonicorbiter SE will NOT be discontinued.

 

Jesus R

 

Then, I'd say $350 - $450

[vortecjr]

Yes, but none of this exists without the work of the originators of MPD, etc. Who should be properly acknowledged.

 

You are very good at insinuation, deception and misdirection. Let's explore the topic of MPD as it pertains to Sonicorbiter.

 

From this link on my website form the Sonicorbiter SE product page what is the name of output mode #3? It's MPD/DLNA.

From the same link on my website form the Sonicorbiter SE product page what is the name of output mode #3b? It's MPD.

From the same link under output mode #5 there is an image. What do you see? You see the DLNA/MPD icon.

SONORE Sonicorbiter SE

 

From this link on my website form the Sonicorbiter SE manual the word MPD is mentioned no less that 3 times in text and 3 times in images showing the MDP/DLNA icon.

SONORE Sonicorbiter SE Manual

 

From this link on my website form the Sonicorbiter SE manual the word MPD is mentioned 1 time as an image.

http://docs.sonore.us/sonicorbiter/Sonicorbiter%20MPD%20DLNA.png

 

From this link right here on CA the what is the topic of the post started by yours truly? It's Sonore Sonicorbiter SE - DLNA/MPD output mode.

From the same link right here on CA the word MPD is mentioned no less that 7 times in text and 1 time in an image.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f26-sonore-sponsored/sonore-sonicorbiter-se-digital-living-network-alliance-mpd-output-mode-27265/#post502316

 

Here is a great one for you. This is taken right out of the unit's GUI from the Installed Apps page. We even show the customer what version of MPD is installed on the unit.

 

Sorry Eloise, but no one is falling for your insinuations, deceptions and misdirections.

 

Jesus R

[Jud]

I'll tell you something about development costs. I've had a Cubox with Volumio 1.55 for almost one year, and it has had constant problems with playing albums straight through via UPnP/DLNA, with track skips and repeats being the most frequent issues, but random reboots being not unusual. I had been hoping that Volumio 2 might correct these problems, but it is not ready for prime time yet. In contrast, the SOtM sMS-100 I've had for a longer time never had any problems with UPnP/DLNA. The time I spent managing/debugging Volumio is worth a whole lot more than the difference in cost between the Cubox and the sMS-100. So, when the Sonicorbiter SE was announced, I got one right away to replace the Cubox+Volumio, and it has been working like a charm. No skips, to repeats, trivial configuration (in contrast to Volumio) just sits there moving bits reliably without interfering with my music listening. The critical difference is that Sonore's business depends on their reputation for putting out a reliable product, so they need to do a lot more integration testing between hardware and software -- and factor those costs into their pricing -- than what is practical the open-source world, where most integration testing is the work of gifted but unpaid amateurs.

 

Just Works is invaluable, but of course tends to be devalued by its very nature.

[vortecjr]

Yet Jesus you avoid mentioning in all your bluster that MPD is open source and licensed under GPLv2 and therefore you are required to disclose/link to the source of the software (amongst other requirements).

 

Google is your friend. If you continue to harass me I will delete your posts in full without warning and or explanation.

 

Jesus R

[lmitche]

Yes, but none of this exists without the work of the originators of MPD, etc. Who should be properly acknowledged.

 

 

Hi Eloise,

 

Your point about dependency on open source software for the Sonicorbiter product is of course spot-on. And it goes much deeper then MPD, it goes back and forth and up and down the entire Linux stack.

 

But I don't understand why you would single out Sonore in this way when there are 10 of thousands of companies that stand on the shoulders of the work done by others in the open source movement. The last time I looked, the Android OS is based on open source. It seems to me that Google, Samsung, LG etc. depend on this work for their success in the mobile business. IBM and Redhat are other prominent examples. I could go on and on.

 

Like these companies, Sonore has taken that open source, packaged it, and added value with proprietary hardware and software. Then Sonore delivers high touch product support for their customers. Jesus R and team work hard to integrate with hundred or thousands of adjacent non-Sonore hardware and software implementations, like DACs, audio based software components like minimserver, Roon . . .etc.

 

I also know first hand that Sonore maintains strong relationships with the open source community of developers. Jesus R has been key in successfully adding support for native DSD to the Linux kernel for my new Mytek Brooklyn DAC. 3 days after my request, I had the software running in my home. This took the coordinated effort of a half dozen people, across the US, Germany, the Netherlands and Poland. This was all done in the best spririt of the open source movement. Most of the work happened on the weekend. Richard Stallman would be proud!

 

So I'm not sure what you are getting at with your comments. Have you ever owned a product based on the Sonicorbiter software? I have an SMS-100 and it is bullet proof despite my constant abuse. Emails and phone calls to Sonore are most often answered in minutes, not hours or days. It justs works, day in and day out.

 

I for one, am grateful to see an innovation like the microRendu come to market. I know it will be well designed and tested by people who hold the same values as myself with high expectations about how a high-end audio product should perform. The software will be well tested. And I am assured that if I have any problems, the Sonore team will be there for me. All in all, these products are great value for the money.

 

Cheers! Larry

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Stop arguing guys, the price is going to go up. all ths time spend reading your messages..

[pipis2010]

The uRendu is more likely to exceed the quality of a general-purpose, even if purpose-built PC for audiophile purposes. It is a specialised device.

 

Wait a minute!! So you're saying/suggesting that this little box will be able to compete with the likes of Antipodes or CAD or Aurender or Auralic? If this happens in a price less than 1K-$500 it will be a true GAME CHANGER!!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

You can refer to John Swenson's explanation of the work done on the power supply and clock, leading to very low jitter. Now how it compares to the various systems we are using, we will have to find out...

 

Unfortunately, not all of us have expensive setups, and we will soon find out, hopefully, what the cost of this thing will be, and stop playing this strange guessing game/tease.

[pipis2010]

You can refer to John Swenson's explanation of the work done on the power supply and clock, leading to very low jitter. Now how it compares to the various systems we are using, we will have to find out...

 

Unfortunately, not all of us have expensive setups, and we will soon find out, hopefully, what the cost of this thing will be, and stop playing this strange guessing game/tease.

 

True! I am one of those people with the not very expensive system...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[YashN]

Wait a minute!! So you're saying/suggesting that this little box will be able to compete with the likes of Antipodes or CAD or Aurender or Auralic? If this happens in a price less than 1K-$500 it will be a true GAME CHANGER!!!

 

It's not the same kind of device IMO. It is best used in a server-to-NAA configuration with HQ Player (at least, that's my perception of it).

[YashN]

I've worked over decades at multiple places that used and contributed to OSS.

 

Very cool, man. I've had a more modest contribution until now by informing people about OSS/Free Software and the licencing for having spent many years in a Linux User Group founded by a good friend of mine.

[pipis2010]

It's not the same kind of device IMO. It is best used in a server-to-NAA configuration with HQ Player (at least, that's my perception of it).

 

Sorry I meant in terms of sound quality, not of the actual usability...

[firedog]

See, I was looking at this as a stripped down SE (i.e., USB-only, instead of USB+optical), *not* an upgrade. That's why I was interested in it *as opposed to* the SE, since I don't need optical and was hoping for a lower price.

 

Obviously, I've missed the point.

 

John, it is the opposite. It's intended as a big upgrade from the SOSE. It is a USB only ethernet renderer designed to be state of the art for USB audio. USB only so it can be the ultimate USB renderer. The design and board are proprietary, and include lots of high level electrical regulation. etc. to make the device "quiet". My understanding is that it also has many elements similar to the USB Regen built in. In that sense it is more of a parallel device to the Signature Rendu that has SPDIF and I2S, but not USB.

[firedog]

Originally Posted by Audio_ELF

Sorry but your "fair amount of development costs" is similar to the amount of work that is put into things like Volumio and Rune. No disrespect to Jesus as you are also paying for support, but the SonoreOrbiter SE is a Cubox ($150) with open source software pre-installed.

 

Sonore has never claimed much else, other than that SonicOrbiter SE has off the shelf, but slightly different HW than most of the cheap boxes of it's type so that it is better suited for audio. Read John Swenson's explanation.

 

As far as SO software, go back and read Chris' old review of the SMS-100, which uses an earlier version of the software. He talks about it as being the only bulletproof playback network playback device he'd come across. When you buy the SOSE, you paying for an off the shelf, but improved Cubox box, and for Sonore/Small Green Computer support. When I bought a USED SMS-100 Jesus still gave me support, even to the extent of twice logging on to my machine remotely to fix a problem of getting it to work with my system. I don't think you will get that kind of support when you buy your $150 Cubox box.

 

The microRendu is another kettle of fish. Bespoke hardware and design throughout, and the software adapted to work perfectly with the specific HW. Not in any way off the shelf. So I'm not sure how your various comments on this thread are in any way fair or relevant.