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Sonore microRendu

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14 minutes ago, pdickerson said:

How do bit perfect renders sound different? 

I would be nice to see Roon supports response to this question?  I may post

 

 

 

It's been discussed a lot over on the Roon forum in the past. For example, people noting UPnP or SqueezeLite sounding better than RAAT. That's with bit perfect playback.

 

Even with HQPlayer NAA - some people have even used Roon to up-sample to DSD512 and have HQPlayer just do 'passthrough' and to them it sounds better via NAA than via RAAT. Passing through the same bits to the same networked endpoint.

 

You can certainly ask Roon but don't get your expectations too high for a response. To be fair to the Roon Team also, it's a tricky question to try and tackle and I don't blame them for avoiding it to be honest. From their end, RAAT is perfect but some people still say it sounds different to other streaming architectures (different - whether better or worse than others). 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

With Room and NAA the Rendu is a pass though device. With MPD/UPnP and SqueezeLite the unit is a player or renderer.

 

What about with Audirvana playing to Rendu in UPnP mode? Does Audirvana behave similar to Roon Core and HQP Server in this case, i.e. A+ does the decoding and the Rendu acts like a pass through device?

 

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5 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

What about with Audirvana playing to Rendu in UPnP mode? Does Audirvana behave similar to Roon Core and HQP Server in this case, i.e. A+ does the decoding and the Rendu acts like a pass through device?

 

RoonReady and NAA talk to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. When you use A+ or JRiver PCM goes through MPD which then talks to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. Remember though some UPnP streams can be FLAC or MP3 so MPD stands ready to decode these. Either way there is an application which receives the data and talks to ALSA.

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1 minute ago, vortecjr said:

RoonReady and NAA talk to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. When you use A+ or JRiver PCM goes through MPD which then talks to Linux ALSA which outputs to your device. Remember though some UPnP streams can be FLAC or MP3 so MPD stands ready to decode these. Either way there is an application which receives the data and talks to ALSA.

 

Cool thanks JR. Interesting.

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I am currently getting very good results via ROON and Signature Rendu SE.  There are certainly no tonal anomalies vs. other players (I can measure that via RTA in room).  When ROON first came out, I preferred both Minimserver DLNA/MPD and Audirvana+.  But ROON has improved a lot in SQ.  Now I also oversample to DSD 256 (both for my ESS 9038 based and DSC-2 DACs) and ROON is very, nice with DSD up conversions (depends on the DAC of course).

All playback softwares do sound different though, and every system will probably respond a bit differently to different softwares, given all the variables.

Of course I need to try HQPlayer/NAA at some point, as most feel Jussi's DSD conversion and SDM is the "best".  I just do not have the hardware to handle it right now, and too many other things on my plate (DAC developments, etc).

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9 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Even with HQPlayer NAA - some people have even used Roon to up-sample to DSD512 and have HQPlayer just do 'passthrough' and to them it sounds better via NAA than via RAAT. Passing through the same bits to the same networked endpoint

 

Interesting. I have HQPlayer on a PC, and I think I prefer Roon upsampling. 

I did also purchase HQPlayer for my SonicTransporter i5. But not tested yet.

 

My question is, can you actually set up HQPlayer without any filter at all ?

Just pure pass through out to the NAA ? (Picture of setting possible ?)

 

Should we start a thread about tips and tricks how to get the best out of your Sonore products with the SW options possible ? 

 

The best SW trick one can do with Roon (or HQPlayer) is HAF 

 

I would say before you ever do any further investment, if you’re a Sonore or Roon or HQPlayer user, that’s your first step. (Assuming you done some Uptone and Ghent magic as well 😀). 

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20 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

 

OK which do people think sounds the best?

 

Reason I ask this is I trialled Roon about a year ago. Made sure all processing of the signal was swItched off. Verified this with a Roon support person. In the limited time I had to compare, LMS sounded repeatedly better than Roon. It was enough of an unexplained difference for me not to subscribe. But I had so little time with it to figure out why and the Roon client (and LMS player) have probably been rewritten since then, so the same comparison now may not give the same results.

 

Anyone else hear differences between renderer clients on the Rendu? Any preferences on the basis of audio quality experienced?

Hi,

Appreciated your post. These are questions that I've been asking for quite a while. I know how to clean, organize, rip, and maintain an uncompressed music DB. And (to me) Tidal is a junk-ass, useless, POS, program that has very little music, very few good artists, and is completely unfair to artists that are there. (As Tidal goes, so does Roon).

It seems that when discussing ROON, - no one seems to talk about the sound quality, nor comparisons to other, (free), players. I too installed ROON server on my beefed up RAM NAS, - and found that both MPD/DLNA, and LMS, sounded either the same, or slightly better than ROON with my ultraRendu. All one hears about is, "oh, - it found all my music," or, - ""it's so easy to play Britney Spears & Justin Timberlake on Tidal, oooh-oh-aahhhh"

Aside from ranting on about all the Netflix-like homogenization of unoriginal and bad music in Tidal and the unreasonably obnoxious Roon focus on Tidal, - I also hate how Roon organizes the views of music by album pictures, - instead of the very clear text list with album pictures on the side of Album Artists in the Logitech remote IF.

 

For people who are concerned about sound quality, - the constant ROON (&Tidal) sucking gets more than tiresome.

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1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

And (to me) Tidal is a junk-ass, useless, POS, program that has very little music, very few good artists, and is completely unfair to artists that are there. 

 

Would you happen to have an alternative ? Spotify maybe ?

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56 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Would you happen to have an alternative ? Spotify maybe ?

Qobuz is a bit better, - it's European, - so, - since European music and writers are considerably better, - then that can only help. As a songwriter; my biggest objection to Tidal is artist exploitation.

This is all opinion of course. With so many folks on these forums who are North Americans, - I can see where many would not subscribe to my viewpoint. 

In general, - with over 30,000 songs in my DB, - I more than enough AIFF files to listen to for the rest of my life. For new music, I listen to German, French, African, radio, sometimes Pandora, programs on KCRW & Tangents radio.

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7 hours ago, barrows said:

I am currently getting very good results via ROON and Signature Rendu SE.  There are certainly no tonal anomalies vs. other players (I can measure that via RTA in room).  When ROON first came out, I preferred both Minimserver DLNA/MPD and Audirvana+.  But ROON has improved a lot in SQ.  Now I also oversample to DSD 256 (both for my ESS 9038 based and DSC-2 DACs) and ROON is very, nice with DSD up conversions (depends on the DAC of course).

All playback softwares do sound different though, and every system will probably respond a bit differently to different softwares, given all the variables.

Of course I need to try HQPlayer/NAA at some point, as most feel Jussi's DSD conversion and SDM is the "best".  I just do not have the hardware to handle it right now, and too many other things on my plate (DAC developments, etc).

You make a good point. I certainly would find it possible that ROON could somehow improve their SQ. AND, Jesus' good point that it's very different if ROON is an endpoint and the "playing" occurs on the ROON server.

 

In our building, - we have 7 devices connected to LMS server. And even though it's now possible to run SqueezeBox Touches with ROON, - I probably would deal with a little worse sound quality and get (what I think is better) user IF of LMS.

 

For me, - in light of equality or the superiority of free LMS, - it should cost around $25 per year.

 

running DSD files with ROON + HQPlayer is another argument in ROONs favor.

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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 

Would you happen to have an alternative ? Spotify maybe ?

Not too sure why you posted an off-topic reaction to my response to HumanMedia, - as his post contained a paragraph about how LMS was better sound quality than ROON.

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China’s QQMusic beats them all.  But it’s only available in China.  I have Roon/Tidal Tidal is a bottom dweller, but does have MQA.  I compared RAAT and Logitech thru microrendu.  I could not hear any reason to switch from RAAT.  

 

I’ll compare again after my 8 KT150 tubes arrive for my amp.   If you make real system changes there is no struggle to tell a difference. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

My question is, can you actually set up HQPlayer without any filter at all ?

Just pure pass through out to the NAA ?

 

Yes, the "Direct SDM" setting in HQPe.

 

So as I mentioned before, if you have Roon do the DSD512 up-sampling, you can have HQPe essentially in pass-through mode with the Direct SDM setting.

 

This can then test RAAT vs NAA with the same chain and same endpoint and some people have still noted NAA sounds better, even though HQPe itself is doing no DSP in this specific example.

 

I learnt of this test from @Miska himself - not for SQ comparisons but we were doing some troubleshooting and it was a good troubleshooting test at the time.

 

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

To be clear I do not stream any files from the Internet (Tidal, etc), I only play files from my own, well maintained library, of music which I love.  (Bach to TOOL).

 

So are you a Perfect Circle and Puscifier fan as well?  I've only heard a little of each but enjoyed what I heard.  My prog rock roots are kind of old and moldy :P (King Crimson, Vandergraf Generator, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, some French bands I can't recall).  I guess Tool et al are more metal than I have gotten into in the past.  Plus I have to watch the volume these days.  I know how I got tinnitus...

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I have not listened to APC (except once on TV) but I probably should, Alex do you have an album recommendation (I did purchase their last Record Store Day release for collectable reasons).  I am definitely a prog guy, King Crimson, etc.  And Jazz, and lots of other stuff.

Anyway off topic!

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10 hours ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

Appreciated your post. These are questions that I've been asking for quite a while. I know how to clean, organize, rip, and maintain an uncompressed music DB. And (to me) Tidal is a junk-ass, useless, POS, program that has very little music, very few good artists, and is completely unfair to artists that are there. (As Tidal goes, so does Roon).

It seems that when discussing ROON, - no one seems to talk about the sound quality, nor comparisons to other, (free), players. I too installed ROON server on my beefed up RAM NAS, - and found that both MPD/DLNA, and LMS, sounded either the same, or slightly better than ROON with my ultraRendu. All one hears about is, "oh, - it found all my music," or, - ""it's so easy to play Britney Spears & Justin Timberlake on Tidal, oooh-oh-aahhhh"

Aside from ranting on about all the Netflix-like homogenization of unoriginal and bad music in Tidal and the unreasonably obnoxious Roon focus on Tidal, - I also hate how Roon organizes the views of music by album pictures, - instead of the very clear text list with album pictures on the side of Album Artists in the Logitech remote IF.

 

For people who are concerned about sound quality, - the constant ROON (&Tidal) sucking gets more than tiresome.

"And (to me) Tidal is a junk-ass, useless, POS, program that has very little music, very few good artists, and is completely unfair to artists that are there. "

 

It's certainly possible that Tidal is to some degree unfair to artists, I honestly don't know the details of how that works. You can also call it a POS program if you truly feel that way, although you are in the vast minority in that regard and the issues are almost certainly personal ones. I have at least six audiophile oriented friends, and myself who have been using it for years, in different systems without the slightest problem, and receiving excellent sound quality. However, when you state that Tidal "has very few good artists", I'm sorry, its clear you don't know what music of any quality is. Virtually all of the worlds greatest musical artists, of many genre's, appear on Tidal. No one can help you here.

 

JC

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12 hours ago, TubeLover said:

It's certainly possible that Tidal is to some degree unfair to artists, I honestly don't know the details of how that works. You can also call it a POS program if you truly feel that way, although you are in the vast minority in that regard and the issues are almost certainly personal ones. I have at least six audiophile oriented friends, and myself who have been using it for years, in different systems without the slightest problem, and receiving excellent sound quality. However, when you state that Tidal "has very few good artists", I'm sorry, its clear you don't know what music of any quality is. Virtually all of the worlds greatest musical artists, of many genre's, appear on Tidal. No one can help you here.

 

Yes, - if you're USA centrist. Again, - the lack of artists from the UK, Europe, Africa, the middle east, - etc. One can go on and on. And I beg to differ on SQ. SQ is a significant and clear step down from local file playback, and relying on expensive, & increasingly intermittent Internet access that is only getting worse. We could start naming individual artists that are almost entirely absent; but one can even compare to QoBuz, - where we see a significant better artist representation factor.

But hey, part of this is all opinion, - if you love copycat and bland acts like Nickelback, Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars, & Justin Timberlake, - well, - American Idol is well represented on Tidal. And, - it's going to get worse everyday. Tidal continually drops artists and is contracting under the guise of "popularity."

Outside of whether or not one's fav Genre of music is either well represented or not: it is criminal exploitation to foist DRM in conjunction with harming & exploiting artists.

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9 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

 

Yes, - if you're USA centrist. Again, - the lack of artists from the UK, Europe, Africa, the middle east, - etc. One can go on and on. And I beg to differ on SQ. SQ is a significant and clear step down from local file playback, and relying on expensive, & increasingly intermittent Internet access that is only getting worse. We could start naming individual artists that are almost entirely absent; but one can even compare to QoBuz, - where we see a significant better artist representation factor.

But hey, part of this is all opinion, - if you love copycat and bland acts like Nickelback, Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars, & Justin Timberlake, - well, - American Idol is well represented on Tidal. And, - it's going to get worse everyday. Tidal continually drops artists and is contracting under the guise of "popularity."

Outside of whether or not one's fav Genre of music is either well represented or not: it is criminal exploitation to foist DRM in conjunction with harming & exploiting artists.

I simply cannot understand some of your arguments in your recent posts. Is your argument that Tidal exploits all artists or that it exploits European artists but not those from the US? I purchase music downloads from Qobuz, but I subscribe to Tidal HIFi streaming simply because their catalogue is more to my taste than that of Qobuz and the sound quality of Tidal is better than that of Spotify. It's as simple as that - and by the way I have never listened to content from any of the artists you chose to include in your post. However, it can't be argued that they are not popular, so why should you be surprised that they can be found on Tidal, and also on Spotify and Qobuz by the way.

If you have decent equipment on which to listen, SQ (of Tidal HiFi) is not 'a significant and clear step down from local file playback of CD quality files'. The difference could be described as subtle at best in most cases. It is certainly better than that of Spotify's MP3 files. 

Finally, I assume that your reference to DRM is a dig at Tidal's use of MQA to deliver 'high resolution' files on their streaming service. The assertion that Tidal is foisting MQA (let alone DRM) on anyone is patently ludicrous. It is not necessary to have MQA decoding equipment in order to listen to Tidal MQA Masters, and in any case there is always the option not to play them or even to unsubscribe from Tidal if their catalogue is not to yours or my tastes. Similarly, if I feel at any time that the sound quality of Tidal's offering reduces in standard then I will once again simply unsubscribe. Although I subscribe to Tidal, most of my own listening is carried out using CD and hi-res files on my own local network.      

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