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What's necessary to play files and stream music: Drowning in new technology


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I bought my first high end products - a NAD receiver, turntable and wonderful speakers from a company whose name I do not recall -- in 1980. I have owned good stuff ever since. I bought the good stuff to enjoy even more the passion of my life -- music.

 

I bought my first computer, an Osborne 1, about the same time. Back then, computers were for spreadsheets and wordprocessing. The Osborne and its PC successors have been used a lot for that. I installed one of the first Novell networks in 1987 in my small CPA office betting the farm that the increased efficiency would justify the cost. My bet paid off big time. Finally, I built a music computer in the early nineties using the highest rated sound card at the time (and again its name has been forgotten). I ripped my CD collection to wav files and used iTunes to play them. (Unfortunately, a crash disconnected the files from the metadata in iTunes and the files were pretty much lost. But that's another story.)

 

The point of the foregoing is to establish that I know a little bit about both high end audio and computers.

 

I got a divorce a few years ago and pretty much lost all of my equipment.  I am only now getting back on my proverbial feet. I am installing a TV system in my house that I will hopefully also be able to listen to music on. I want to be able to play ripped CDs from an NAS as well as stream music. I am currently using Spotify which is OK. I hope to try out Apple Music and Tidal in the near future. Based on what I have read, I see Tidal as my future streaming service.

 

My new system will be centered around a Marantz AV8801 processor/preamp. My question is what additional hardware I need to play files and stream music. I have spent a fair amount of time on the Internet and particularly on this site to answer this question. But I must say that I am overwhelmed by all of the technologies discussed in this forum. I know that one way to go would be to buy a Mac Mini and a DAC and plug the analog outputs of the DAC into the Marantz unit. It also appears that I could plug the Mac Mini directly into the Marantz and use its internal DAC. Finally, the AV8801's documentation says that I can stream using the unit by using a router that supports audio streaming. But I have no idea what that means.

 

My reading seems to say that while a computer and a DAC will work fine, an "appliance" might sound a lot better and would cost about the same. I wouldn't be using the Mac for anything other that serving as a music server.

 

My budget for this project is $100k. Just kidding. Actually, if I could start off kind of inexpensively and then build more quality and capability into the system over the next year or two, that would be great.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Happy New Year!

 

Tim

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My new system will be centered around a Marantz AV8801 processor/preamp. My question is what additional hardware I need to play files and stream music.

Tim

 

You simply need a wifi router (not sure if that particular Marantz has a wired ethernet port - if so then you can be 'wired') to get to the internet with this unit, then you can stream Spotify as it has it built in as an onboard app. To stream your own files (whether they be wav rips of CD's, or high res, or MP3's, etc.) you will need a computer (or a DLNA capable NAS unit) on the same network serving up files via DLNA (I use computer running JRiver to feed my Marantz unit). Your Marantz unit already has a capable DAC (24/192 capable) so adding an external DAC into your system would simply be playing around/experimenting/upgrading, etc. (and would complicate things, as your Marantz would then become a pre-amp which would then feed the DAC, which would then need an amp, which would then power your speakers - sort of defeating the fundamental functionality of an integrated wifi router/DAC/amp such as your Marantz).

 

edit: I see now that your unit is a pre-amp, so you obviously already have an separate amp - but that does not change the fundamentals as it is still is a router/DAC/media client (DLNA and apps such as Spotify) all rolled into one...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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No DAC needed. I have an 8802a and had an 8801 before that. I used the 8801 fed via HDMI from a MacMini (and now a PC) running JRiver with the files on a NAS located remotely. This affords you the advantage of the JRiver user interface which is a huge advance on the Marantz GUI for streaming files. It also removes the Marantz' limitation in formats and channels (multichannel!). For Internet streaming, the PC's network access will supplement what the Marantz can do.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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For Internet streaming, the PC's network access will supplement what the Marantz can do.

 

Are you outputting Tidal/etc. over HDMI directly to the Marantz? What are the details of this if you don't mind me asking.

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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No DAC needed. I have an 8802a and had an 8801 before that. I used the 8801 fed via HDMI from a MacMini (and now a PC) running JRiver with the files on a NAS located remotely. This affords you the advantage of the JRiver user interface which is a huge advance on the Marantz GUI for streaming files. It also removes the Marantz' limitation in formats and channels (multichannel!). For Internet streaming, the PC's network access will supplement what the Marantz can do.

 

Kal,

 

I read your column in Stereophile regularly. I am honored to have you respond to my post.

 

The 8801 documentation has me connecting a computer via Ethernet. I am confident I can figure out how to connect a computer via HDMI. (Your advice would be greatly appreciated, however.)

 

Your post implies, however, that you replaced the Mac Mini with a PC. Can you elaborate on that?

 

Tim

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The 8801 documentation has me connecting a computer via Ethernet. I am confident I can figure out how to connect a computer via HDMI. (Your advice would be greatly appreciated, however.)

Just run an HDMI cable from the Mac/PC to the 8801. Then the Mac/PC becomes one of your sources. You will have to select the Marantz HDMI for all applications you use on the Mac/PC.

 

Your post implies, however, that you replaced the Mac Mini with a PC. Can you elaborate on that?
I tried the Mac and confirmed that I am not a Mac person. I had difficulties with 24/192 and DSD output. So, I installed BootCamp so that I can run the MacMini as a PC under Win7. I have a PC/Win7 in my other system and prefer it.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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Kal,

 

Thanks very much for your help. I think I am on the right road now. Use a computer as opposed to an appliance and use the DACs in the Marantz unit.

 

I am interested, however, in your issues with a Mac vs a PC for high quality sound. Have you written about the issues in Stereophile or elsewhere? My own experience is that the PC was always finding a way to reject an outboard DAC. It just didn't want to use anything other than was on the motherboard. This experience was under XP, however.

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I think I am on the right road now. Use a computer as opposed to an appliance and use the DACs in the Marantz unit.
You already have the streaming & music file playback 'appliance' with the AV8801 itself, so certainly no need for another appliance to stream from TIDAL, not even a more traditional computer for that matter. For example the excellent BubbleUPnP Android controller app can be used to stream from TIDAL directly to the AV8801, without the need for any other device/computer/etc to be used in the process.

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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You already have the streaming & music file playback 'appliance' with the AV8801 itself, so certainly no need for another appliance to stream from TIDAL, not even a more traditional computer for that matter. For example the excellent BubbleUPnP Android controller app can be used to stream from TIDAL directly to the AV8801, without the need for any other device/computer/etc to be used in the process.
Not in multichannel.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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Kal,

 

Thanks very much for your help. I think I am on the right road now. Use a computer as opposed to an appliance and use the DACs in the Marantz unit.

 

I am interested, however, in your issues with a Mac vs a PC for high quality sound. Have you written about the issues in Stereophile or elsewhere? My own experience is that the PC was always finding a way to reject an outboard DAC. It just didn't want to use anything other than was on the motherboard. This experience was under XP, however.

 

Similar to the problems I had with MacOS but they are too tedious to detail and, quite likely, have more to do with my unfamiliarity with Macs.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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Not in multichannel.
Agreed and would probably not support gapless playback in multichannel too even if the Marantz did stream in multichannel, going by what's currently available!

 

However, the OP hasn't mentioned being interested in multichannel streaming, as the implication seems to be the music source is strictly stereo, given that the emphasis is on streaming from TIDAL and having a current music library sourced from CDs. So going for a 'simpler' setup that doesn't require another box may be the thing to try, at least initially, don't you think?

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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Similar to the problems I had with MacOS but they are too tedious to detail and, quite likely, have more to do with my unfamiliarity with Macs.

 

That works both ways you know - you pointed out some obvious things with Macs that I at least, had a bit of tunnel blindness towards. :)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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You already have the streaming & music file playback 'appliance' with the AV8801 itself, so certainly no need for another appliance to stream from TIDAL, not even a more traditional computer for that matter. For example the excellent BubbleUPnP Android controller app can be used to stream from TIDAL directly to the AV8801, without the need for any other device/computer/etc to be used in the process.

 

Cebolla, help me out here - how does this app get Tidal to a Marantz unit? I set it up and it simply sets up another DLNA service point to my JRiver, which my Marantz already sees (in the Marantz under "media servers"). I see no Tidal service of any kind. I installed it on my PC as I don't want to stream Tidal from my phone (android)...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Hi Crenca

 

The BubbleUPnP Server application for PCs, despite its similar name, is not the same thing as the BubbleUPnP Android app as I was talking about. The BubbleUPnP Server's purpose is to provide backend enhancements to UPnP/DLNA streaming and can be used as a helper application for the BubbleUPnP Android app, though not exclusively so. I'm guessing what you (mistakenly) set up on the BubbleUPnP Server is one of its UPnP/DLNA media server helper functions, completely unrelated to TIDAL.

 

As far as TIDAL is concerned, the enhancement that the BubbleUPnP Server provides for the BubbleUPnP Android app is to proxy the TIDAL service for the Marantz, so that the TIDAL connection is made via the computer it's running on (and not via the Android device the BubbleUPnP is on). This means that it'll therefore be streaming TIDAL through the computer and not the Android device. However, the BubbleUPnP Server does not provide any user interface to TIDAL itself, so you still have to use the BubbleUPnP Android app to access your TIDAL music files and control the playback.

 

If you actually want a UPnP controller on your computer that can access TIDAL, then one option is to install an Android emulator on it, such as Bluestacks. You should then be ablle install and run the BubbleUPnP Android app from the Android emulator running on the computer.

 

I only know of one music file streamer controller that can access TIDAL and that also runs natively on a computer, Linn's Kazoo. It supports an enhanced version of UPnP streaming called OpenHome, but unfortunately it's incompatible with standard UPnP/DLNA streamers, such as the Maranatz ones, so cannot access them. However, coincidentally, one of the BubbleUPnP Server's other UPnP helper features is to provide OpenHome emulation for any standard UPnP streamer on the network. So you can setup the BubbleUPnP Server to help the Marantz appear as an OpenHome streamer to Kazoo, allowing the Marantz to stream from TIDAL controlled via Kazoo running on the computer.

 

John

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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Hi Crenca

 

The BubbleUPnP Server application for PCs, despite its similar name, is not the same thing as the BubbleUPnP Android app as I was talking about. ...

 

John

 

Thanks for the detail John. I went ahead and setup up the android UI/"control" app and I see now how it works. However, it drops in and out on the Marantz, like I don't have enough wifi bandwidth (I have more than enough - won't go into the details), so for some reason the server is struggling...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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I'll second the PC to Marantz via HDMI approach. Now if Apple can get on the stick and get an app that will run Apple Music on the PC remotely we'd have a nice streaming service fed that way also. Spotify works great that way with their "Spotify Connect" so no reason Apple can't have something similar.

David

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my unfamiliarity with Macs

 

Incidentally, let's first consider support.apple.com/en-nz/HT202968 :

Set up audio devices on iMac (Mid 2014) and later

 

Learn how to set up audio devices on your iMac (Mid 2014) and later. You can use Audio Midi Setup to select audio channel input and output devices, configure output speakers, set clock rates, and control audio levels.

 

You can use Audio MIDI Setup to configure audio input and output devices that you use with your iMac, such as microphones and multichannel audio interfaces. Audio MIDI Setup works with many types of audio and MIDI interface devices, including your computer’s built-in audio and digital multichannel audio devices. It works with devices connected to your iMac using FireWire, USB, Bluetooth, PCMCIA, and PCI.

 

The settings you can change in Audio MIDI Setup depend on the audio device you’re using. For example, if the device supports volume control, you can adjust the volume for each channel your audio output device has available by following these steps:

 

  1. Connect your audio devices to your iMac. If necessary, install any software included with the devices. See the documentation that came with your audio devices.
  2. Open Audio MIDI Setup (you can find it in Utilities, inside your computer's Applications folder).
  3. Choose an audio device from the list on the left side of the Audio Devices window.
    • To use the device for sound input, choose "Use this device for sound input" from the Action pop-up menu.
    • To use the device for sound output, choose "Use this device for sound output" from the Action pop-up menu. If you also want to use the device to play system sounds, choose "Play alerts and sound effects through this device" from the Action pop-up menu.

 

[*]On the right side of the Audio Devices window, choose the options available for the device you're setting up:

  • In most cases, leave the "Clock source" pop-up menu on the default setting.
  • To set up surround (multichannel) speaker configurations, click Configure Speakers. Then, choose the type of configuration you want to use. See Set up external speakers for stereo or surround sound for more information.
  • You can set the sample rate and bit depth in the Format pop-up menus. Make sure they match the appropriate settings for your audio device and that the input and output sample rates are set to the same value. For example, the built-in speakers of an iMac computer may appear like this:

audiomidisetup-100455983-large.png

audiochannelsetup-100455985-large.png

Additional settings

 

  • If your iMac supports the hardware sample rate converter, the Hardware Rate Converter pop-up menu is available in the Input menu. When you choose Automatic from the pop-up menu, the hardware sample rate converter is turned on if the audio samples coming in are PCM and formatted according to the international standard IEC 60958-3. The hardware sample rate converter is turned off if the input stream is encoded. You can also choose Enable or Disable from the menu to keep the hardware sample rate converter turned on or off.
    —If you choose Enable from the menu, you may not be able to stream non-LPCM or encoded audio because the audio may not be recognized.
  • If software volume control is available for your device, the Volume sliders are blue to indicate they are active. Drag the sliders to set the volume for each channel.

 

 

Learn more

 

 

 

«

an accurate picture

Sono pessimista con l'intelligenza,

 

ma ottimista per la volontà.

severe loudspeaker alignment »

 

 

 

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Incidentally' date=' let's first consider ..............[/quote']Old news. Ask them how they get 24/192 in multichannel? I wasted many hours on the phone and on-line and even let them "control" my MacMini to no avail. They said they would "elevate" the issue and then..........................................silence. Run Win7 and its easy.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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True but I am uncomfortable with the Marantz GUI.
Well, one of the 'benefits' of the Marantz's UPnP/DLNA streaming support is that you are not restricted to the Marantz app for network file streaming. There are many third party UPnP/DLNA controller apps out there to choose from. Arguably, the main issue with standard UPnP control points is to make sure they support gapless playback, see:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/truly-gapless-digital-living-network-alliance-controllers-22398/

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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Thanks for the detail John. I went ahead and setup up the android UI/"control" app and I see now how it works. However, it drops in and out on the Marantz, like I don't have enough wifi bandwidth (I have more than enough - won't go into the details), so for some reason the server is struggling...
You are going to need to say exactly what you tried and setup wrt the BubbleUPnP Server and the BubbleUPnP Android controller app when using them to stream TIDAL to your Marantz, if you are having issues and require help. As it's starting to get a bit off topic, it may be worth starting your own thread on the network and streaming section or perhaps posting the issue on this existing thread created by Bubbleguuum, developer of BubbleUPnP (it's certainly worth a read if nothing else):

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/play-qobuz-any-streamer-bubbleupnp-android-25075/

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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Will third PC to Marantz via HDMI.

 

Also recommend JRiver Media Center for lots of flexibility.

Ironically, that flexibility of JMC allows you to also use it via UPnP/DLNA network streaming with the Marantz instead of using HDMI!

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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