Help on Computer Speakers...

[mistersprinkles]

Minutes- any chance you're in Canada? Long & McQuade sells the Yorkville YSM studio monitors. About $400 gets you a pair of YSM 5's and another $170 gets you a dragonfly 1.2 and another $35. You can get the TRS to dual TS cable from Long & McQuade. I have used the YSM6's at home for awhile and they are an EXTREMELY capable speaker for the price. Very well rounded and sound good with all kinds of music. They are hard to beat for $400. Alternatively, you could go with The JBL LSR 305's which sound phenomenal. Both speakers have 5" woofers and soft dome tweeters.

 

As was mentioned, another option is a pair of ELAC B5 bookshelf speakers, a cheap desktop amp, and a DAC.

 

I have the KEF X300A but I do not suggest them for desktop use just because when you put them on stands a couple of feet away from the back wall they sound a good 2 to 3 times better than they do on a desk. It's sort of criminal to put them on a desk.

[carewser]

^Thank you for proving my point that Logitech offers some of the best speakers around for the money. My Logitech Z-623's offer a 200 watt RMS system that produces a frequency response of 35hz-20khz for $120 and yes, i'm Canadian. I have little doubt that the system you suggested sounds better but for five times the price? Bitch please.

 

It's the same thing with your KEF's, i'm sure the highs and mids sound better than my Logitech's but can your KEF's rattle my closet door like my Logitech's can? I highly doubt it and for speakers costing seven times what my Logitech's cost they should be able to do everything substantially better.

[Richard Dale]

JBL LSR305 or LSR308 as another alternative matched with the Schiit Modi (or one of the alternatives).

 

Though I like the KEF X300A too.

 

I've got a pair of JBL LSR305s and they do sound great, but I would say that they are a bit too physically large and loud for desktop use. I prefer to sit about 2m away from them - I don't think they do low sound levels so well. An IsoAcoustics stand is a great match for them.

 

I use B&W MM-1s as well as they are a bit smaller and not so 'in your face' as the JBLs. They are small enough to not dominate your desk, and I can sling them in a suitcase and take them with me when I'm working away from home. Not everyone who posts on this forum likes them, and so maybe you would need to hear them first. I think they are quite sensitive to what is driving them as they only have adaptive USB (and only go up to 16/48) - I use them with an Audioquest Cinnamon USB cable to audiophile tuned Raspberry Pi.

 

I would like to hear DigiPete's suggestion of the Genelec 8010s as they look like they're a nice size in between the JBLs and B&Ws, and would fit nicely on a desktop. I would particularly like hear them with a Chord Mojo DAC as I'm a big fan of the Chord Hugo and 2Qute.

[mistersprinkles]

^Thank you for proving my point that Logitech offers some of the best speakers around for the money. My Logitech Z-623's offer a 200 watt RMS system that produces a frequency response of 35hz-20khz for $120 and yes, i'm Canadian. I have little doubt that the system you suggested sounds better but for five times the price? Bitch please.

 

It's the same thing with your KEF's, i'm sure the highs and mids sound better than my Logitech's but can your KEF's rattle my closet door like my Logitech's can? I highly doubt it and for speakers costing seven times what my Logitech's cost they should be able to do everything substantially better.

 

....

 

Ok... First of all, Logitech speakers are junk. I have owned several. They are junk. I'm sorry. You list the wattage of the logitech setup as a positive point. Clearly, you are an audio-noob. The wattage does not determine anything. You can have a really terrible, inefficient speaker that takes 200W to sound as loud as a highly efficient well made speaker that only needs 6W to get that loud. Wattage means nothing unless you are looking at the impedance and efficiency of seperate components (speakers) when purchasing an amp to power them.

 

Moving on, yes, the system I suggested sounds better. Did you notice this is an audiophile forum? As in, sounds better is the holy grail here? Those YSM's don't just sound better, they STOMP the logitechs, which yes, I have listened to at the store. You think the highs and mids on my kefs sound better than your logi's? Dude, everything sounds better. Bass too. You list "rattling your closet door" as being a sign that you have good bass. Actually, that's bad bass. Good bass shouldn't rattle anything in a properly set up room. Don't confuse bad harmonics with good bass.

 

So yes, the KEF's can do everything substantially better. I suggest you listen to some basslines (real basslines, from a stand up bass) on your ghetto speakers. Diana Krall is good for that kind of thing. Can you hear the guy's fingers plucking the strings? Does it actually have the impact and tonality appropriate to the instrument? No. It doesn't it just sounds like plodding thumps with no particular body or tone too them because YOU HAVE LOGITECH SPEAKERS!

 

You're on the wrong forum dude, seriously.

[Paul R]

^Thank you for proving my point that Logitech offers some of the best speakers around for the money. My Logitech Z-623's offer a 200 watt RMS system that produces a frequency response of 35hz-20khz for $120 and yes, i'm Canadian. I have little doubt that the system you suggested sounds better but for five times the price? Bitch please.

 

It's the same thing with your KEF's, i'm sure the highs and mids sound better than my Logitech's but can your KEF's rattle my closet door like my Logitech's can? I highly doubt it and for speakers costing seven times what my Logitech's cost they should be able to do everything substantially better.

 

Depends - if you just want a loud noise from your computer, party music, or just background noise, Logitech computer speakers are pretty fine. If you want fine music reproduction however, there are better speakers around for just a little more money. A $100 pair of Pioneed SB speakers will make a lot better sound. Of course, you will need something to power them with, and thus you go down the long rabbit hole.

 

The Genelecs sound so good they can bring tears to your eyes. So can the KEFs and a few other speakers mentioned.

 

It's a whole different world my friend, and when it comes to speakers, there is throwaway stuff like Logitech, and keep forever stuff like the Genelecs.

 

Me? I have a set of Mini Maggies driving tunes from my normal computer workstation.

[wgscott]

What's wrong with Logitech?

 

Nothing. I adore their keyboards and remote control units.

 

To the OP: Take a look at Vanatoo.

[carewser]

Ok... First of all, Logitech speakers are junk. I have owned several.

 

If they're such junk why did you keep buying them?

 

You list the wattage of the logitech setup as a positive point.

 

Maybe i'm funny but I think volume counts for something

 

Clearly, you are an audio-noob

 

No i'm not actually, i've been into audio equipment since the early '80's although I did take a 20 year break at one point.

 

You can have a really terrible, inefficient speaker that takes 200W to sound as loud as a highly efficient well made speaker that only needs 6W to get that loud. Wattage means nothing unless you are looking at the impedance and efficiency of seperate components (speakers) when purchasing an amp to power them.

 

Yes I am aware of impedance and have a pretty good idea of how it works, but thanks.

 

You list "rattling your closet door" as being a sign that you have good bass. Actually, that's bad bass. Good bass shouldn't rattle anything in a properly set up room. Don't confuse bad harmonics with good bass.

 

You're wrong, ALL music is vibration and the deeper and louder the bass the more likely things around you are to vibrate like the woofer itself.

 

You're on the wrong forum dude, seriously.

 

This you might be right about.

[jrflanne]

I have the AudioEngine 5+ on my desktop. They sound pretty good bit could use more detail on the high end. But they are good for the desktop and fill near field well. Had the little psb alpha's with sub in my home office. They were good but I sold them. Prefer the 5+'s.

[The Computer Audiophile]

The new Audioengine HD3 look like a great option as well.

[mistersprinkles]

if they're such junk why did you keep buying them?

 

This was back in the olden days when I didn't know about audio.

 

Maybe i'm funny but I think volume counts for something

 

Yes it does, you do not understand how it works though.

 

No i'm not actually, i've been into audio equipment since the early '80's although I did take a 20 year break at one point.

 

Could have fooled me.

Yes I am aware of impedance and have a pretty good idea of how it works, but thanks.

 

I disagree

 

You're wrong, ALL music is vibration and the deeper and louder the bass the more likely things around you are to vibrate like the woofer itself.

Yes, all music is vibration. When something in your room audibly vibrates, that's because you have a bad room setup, NOT because you have good bass. Case in point, the bass farts you hear from rice rockets on any street in Anytown.

 

This you might be right about.

 

[Gonzbull]

Genelec, Adam, JBL, Presonus, Yamaha, Wharfdale are some that are worthy of consideration. KRK is crap. Thomann, Music123 or your local equivalent should have all these so you can check specs and prices.

[carewser]

Genelec, Adam, JBL, Presonus, Yamaha, Wharfdale are some that are worthy of consideration. KRK is crap. Thomann, Music123 or your local equivalent should have all these so you can check specs and prices.

 

I've heard KRK Rockit's actually sound really good. As for Genelec's i've heard they sound great too but their satellites are priced from $400-$9000 which are ALL completely out of my price range. I can only assume many of you at this site are fabulously wealthy.

[carewser]

I have the AudioEngine 5+ on my desktop. They sound pretty good bit could use more detail on the high end.

 

It seems ironic to complain about a speaker with a 5 inch woofer's lack of high end.

[solrighal]

It seems ironic to complain about a speaker with a 5 inch woofer's lack of high end.

 

Wrong in what way exactly?

 

I use a pair of Dali Zensor 1's driven by a Marantz PM6004 for my desktop set-up. It all works pretty well and the Dali's don't seem to suffer too much in being in a near-field situation with their backs to the wall. Still, for critical listening I always turn to my headphone rig. The speakers are for when alcohol is involved.

[Gonzbull]

Here's a start! Just a quick Google search. https://www.attackmagazine.com/reviews/the-best/ten-best-nearfield-studio-monitors/

First 3 speakers are in your budget.

I use the Adams A7X as a secondary set of speakers in the studio.

[PAP]

I heard a pair these the other day at a friends house and was quite impressed; xeo 2

 

High-end loudspeakers for home systems, professionals and cars

[carewser]

^And they're only $1600/pair too! What a deal!

[anwaypasible]

this forum is one of the most distorted i've ever come across.

lets face it, speakers can cost less than a single dollar to make.

if you think money rules the world, then aliens could learn about our planet and simply attack all of the richest people in the world to seriously set back our evolution efforts.

and if that doesn't happen, people other than the rich will start to go into chaos because they see people with money spending more while enjoying more on what they spent.

they might not be breaking windows and stealing things from the store and flooding the streets.

they might instead abuse people.

 

i live in an area that does a good job of proving money doesn't rule the world.

you can travel 30 miles north and people doing the same jobs get paid more because the average house is bigger.

but while they shower themselves in more money and bigger houses, they are also closer to a big city (chicago) and if a zombie situation broke out in the city (or really any cause of panic), their town would be flooded with problems before us.

 

remember when lcd televisions first came out?

they ranged in prices between $1,500 - $5,000 and it didn't matter how much you spent because the televisions still broke.

 

if all the good shows came on premium channels such as hbo or something, then there'd be hundreds of other channels nobody would pay for.

the entertainment industry would satisfy only the rich who could afford to pay for hundreds of other channels while subscribing to the premium channels and then they'd really only watch, what, a dozen channels?

 

you hang out at a mechanic shop you'll see it doesn't matter if you spend a premium on a luxury brand such as cadillac, in fact you'll see more of those premium vehicles in there needing repair than the cheaper vehicles.

same is true for the premium models within a manufacturer's brand name.

you've got money to buy a sports car, but you aren't going into details about why the vehicle is supposedly better.

you aren't learning about the front to back weight ratio, you aren't learning about the suspension balance, you aren't learning about the engine design.

a lot of people simply pay the price to expect more from their sport car.

they get in and go without practice or experience.

they assume the engine is an improvement over regular vehicles, yet they fail to understand what makes an engine more fast.

their engines get lower mpg thus the design is inefficient thus the design can't possibly be an improvement.

 

simply because you work a job that pays more, that doesn't necessarily say you are smarter because people can go to school and memorize how to do something.

as far as i'm concerned, if you are busy working then you've got less time to learn the details of vehicles and therefore when you fork out a larger amount of money you are basically proving guilt towards the category you are spending while showing innocence from the category you saved the money from.

you expect the innocence of working to grant you rights towards the improved performance of the vehicle, but with the improved performance you also improve the chances of causing an accident or somebody getting in your way causing an accident.

you say you don't drive the vehicle like a sports car? well why do you own it then, for improved gas mileage?

it's another opportunity for the twisted psychologists to prove you are stupid.

i realize some of the sports cars look good and that is reason alone to want or drive one.

but practicality as well as sensibility come into question.

you spend more on gasoline, your insurance rates are higher, and you aren't really any less in danger while driving.

you spend twice as much, but do you go twice as fast? no.

if you think you are twice as safe, then you've got real issues with anger towards innocent potential.

because not every parent puts their kids in a minivan where most people assume children are inside.

 

computers are another example, you go out and spend $2,000 - $3,000 on a prebuilt computer made to play video games.

yet you can build your own piece by piece for about half that, AND some of the pieces come with a lifetime warranty.

 

now with that said, moving on to speakers.

you do realize there's a lot of people who don't use an equalizer to calibrate their frequency response, right?

you do realize the reason they tell you to put your speakers in a specific area angled at a specific toe-in is to try to help your frequency response get a little bit more flat without using an equalizer, right?

you do realize harmonic distortion at the listening position is rather common, thus speakers can be built to work with those harmonics by basically using the harmonic distortion at the listening position - flip the distortion backwards and play it from the speaker to get a perfect waveform at the listening position, right?

with that said, you realize one speaker compared to the next is made for a different size room - right?

 

master speaker sellers know they've got a stock of speakers for different size rooms, and if you are too lazy to calibrate the frequency response they can help you by selling you a pair of speakers that will get the flattest frequency response in your room.

but you'll pay a premium price for the laziness, and you will think the price is justified because they sound like an improvement.

 

you people realize speakers are sounding better and better?

look at television speakers, look at the speakers you connect to a cellphone, listen to stock speakers in a vehicle.

those are three very good ways to realize speaker manufacturers are pushing out higher quality.

 

i had a pair of speakers that sounded good, i could literally hear a gap of air between a male actor and a female actor talking at the same time.

i paid $40 for those speakers, but i abused them and one of them blew (too much pressure from the woofer caused the midrange to bottom out more times than it liked)

 

now i've got replacement midranges that i spent about $30 each from parts express.

they don't separate the vocals as the old ones did, but the old ones also sounded shrill as if there was lots of tin to the sound.

these midranges i've got now do a good job of providing a 180 degree soundfield with some reverberant splashes on the rear wall.

am i impressed with the splashes on the rear wall? no, absolutely not.

i had a pair of car speakers from the 1990's that could project a sound source on the back wall that was louder than the sound coming from the speakers themselves and it didn't matter if you walked around the room because the sound source on the backwall remained stronger than the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

i did that with reverb, and you won't find such a good reverb from a vst plugin as i've looked for one and couldn't find one that has as many advanced controls.

do these new midranges sound shrill? not anywhere close to what the old ones sounded like.

are they totally transparent? no, not compared to a pair of sony headphones that i calibrated with a microphone (but those broke) and i only paid $70? for those from best buy.

what do i mean when i say transparent? i mean i had the calibrated headphones on my ears and i talked into the microphone and i couldn't tell if i was listening to myself talk or if i was wearing headphones.

 

i don't use a center channel, and i don't need to.

i've got sound filling the entire screen, literally on the screen as it should be rather than spewing out from a speaker - and it's just as loud as the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

 

your thoughts on speakers automatically sounding better because they are in a higher price range is simply a psychology test you are failing.

a manufacturer with a good source of materials can build a pair of three-way speakers including their cabinets for less than the cost of a meal.

then you go out there and spend 1,000x - 10,000x the price it cost to build them.

abusing people who point out there is good quality in the lower price categories, you fuel sociopathic behavior from the people making such large profits.

maybe you need to think about what it takes to fuel money and|or power crazed individuals.

from history's point of view, there's been a lot of money made in the last three decades and it's time to start filtering those people out because too much money or too much power can cause a person's character to break down.

you might not see it if they are steadily rolling along their path, but if a situation were to arise that breaks them from their normal path then there's a good chance they'll show it then.

 

i don't trust anybodies forum post claiming a speaker sounds good.

i read people say repeatedly a pair of studio monitors sounded good, they said they sounded better than a lot of other things.

yet i happened to hear a pair and they sounded worse than a lot of other speakers - in fact, i've heard stock vehicle systems sound better than those 'studio-grade' speakers.

 

you gotta remember, people might recommend speakers simply because they are somehow invested in the company and could see money going into their pocket if more of them get sold.

could be investors.

could be source material providers.

could be family or friends in a group buy saving money.

could be companies who get money invested into their business by these companies selling high priced products.

 

and for what it is worth, there shouldn't be an argument between objective sound quality versus subjective sound quality.

reference exists for a reason.

transparency is important, no different than being able to produce audio mastering effects - from panning anywhere in 180 degrees onward to 3d sound up to the massive 4d sound (turning around and seeing the back to a 3d object).

 

realize not all speakers are meant for the same purpose.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source anywhere around the speaker tower, but not fill a room with sound.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source onto an object while hidden away from sight.

some speakers are meant to fill a living room with sound.

some speakers are meant to pour out sound with a much more narrow dispersion to keep the reflections to a minimum (PA speakers).

i think PA speakers might also purposefully remove a lot of the 180 degree panning in the stereo field (though it could be the amplifiers, or a combination of the two - and it makes sense too, because the audio mastering has no idea how far away from the walls the speakers are and thus they simply cannot design the sound effects for the room)

but this holds true for all you people listening to the standard speaker placement guide, as i've said those guides are to help with room modes.

the audio mastering engineers have no idea how far away your speakers are from the walls and they simply cannot design sound effects that way.

all they know is most rooms are square or rectangle, it is up to you to care from there.

i've shown myself a stereo set of speakers can provide a solid sound source behind the listening position.

there is little stopping the audio industry from continuing to build on the number of available virtual speaker locations.

yet instead of making the amplifiers more capable, they simply ask us to buy more speakers and put them in the room to help with those virtual speaker locations (something i don't totally agree with).

i think there are bound to be circumstances were more speakers in the room simply isn't possible, especially when you consider all of those speakers are supposed to be full range into the sub harmonics regardless of a subwoofer being used.

you want the full effect, then you need to realize PRESSURE can have a source and it adds to the experience.

plus there's opportunity to apply subtle changes in the pressure of the entire room that can really make a hot or cold scene more enveloping.

 

you forget there's a whole bunch of houses that are about 100 years old and the size of the rooms are small?

for audiophiles, it can be hard enough to find a house with a living room that has four walls.

but then find a house with a living room big enough for 7 or 9 full range speakers? that is asking too much.

 

i think there are people who would rather be with a transparent sound more than the sound effects, while the others would rather hear the sound effects more than vocal accuracy, and yet there are others that want both.

for what it is worth, all of you say one speaker or the other sounds 'good' but you didn't say the reason.

you aren't helping other people, you are helping yourselves.

there is always the question, are the speakers calibrated for the listening position or are they simply a good match for the room size?

from my point of view, receivers are coming with some calibration techniques and there's additional calibration possibilities available.

that causes me to believe speakers built for specific room sizes are going to be less common.

i see a lot of speakers available for sale with lower power ratings, that tells me there is a fight going on for speakers that can play loud enough to fill a room.

if they aren't loud enough to fill the room, and they don't sound like an improvement - what is keeping the money coming in? why are these speakers still for sale instead of replacing them with something that will sell?

a good speaker can sell itself if people simply calibrate the frequency response and hear it.

when you go to a store to demo a speaker, how do you know the worst sounding speaker isn't one that is made to play with opposite distortion of the room to cancel eachother out to create a good waveform at the listening position?

i would avoid those speakers if you plan on calibrating the frequency response.

[Richard Dale]

this forum is one of the most distorted i've ever come across.

lets face it, speakers can cost less than a single dollar to make.

if you think money rules the world, then aliens could learn about our planet and simply attack all of the richest people in the world to seriously set back our evolution efforts.

and if that doesn't happen, people other than the rich will start to go into chaos because they see people with money spending more while enjoying more on what they spent.

they might not be breaking windows and stealing things from the store and flooding the streets.

they might instead abuse people.

 

i live in an area that does a good job of proving money doesn't rule the world.

you can travel 30 miles north and people doing the same jobs get paid more because the average house is bigger.

but while they shower themselves in more money and bigger houses, they are also closer to a big city (chicago) and if a zombie situation broke out in the city (or really any cause of panic), their town would be flooded with problems before us.

 

remember when lcd televisions first came out?

they ranged in prices between $1,500 - $5,000 and it didn't matter how much you spent because the televisions still broke.

 

if all the good shows came on premium channels such as hbo or something, then there'd be hundreds of other channels nobody would pay for.

the entertainment industry would satisfy only the rich who could afford to pay for hundreds of other channels while subscribing to the premium channels and then they'd really only watch, what, a dozen channels?

 

you hang out at a mechanic shop you'll see it doesn't matter if you spend a premium on a luxury brand such as cadillac, in fact you'll see more of those premium vehicles in there needing repair than the cheaper vehicles.

same is true for the premium models within a manufacturer's brand name.

you've got money to buy a sports car, but you aren't going into details about why the vehicle is supposedly better.

you aren't learning about the front to back weight ratio, you aren't learning about the suspension balance, you aren't learning about the engine design.

a lot of people simply pay the price to expect more from their sport car.

they get in and go without practice or experience.

they assume the engine is an improvement over regular vehicles, yet they fail to understand what makes an engine more fast.

their engines get lower mpg thus the design is inefficient thus the design can't possibly be an improvement.

 

simply because you work a job that pays more, that doesn't necessarily say you are smarter because people can go to school and memorize how to do something.

as far as i'm concerned, if you are busy working then you've got less time to learn the details of vehicles and therefore when you fork out a larger amount of money you are basically proving guilt towards the category you are spending while showing innocence from the category you saved the money from.

you expect the innocence of working to grant you rights towards the improved performance of the vehicle, but with the improved performance you also improve the chances of causing an accident or somebody getting in your way causing an accident.

you say you don't drive the vehicle like a sports car? well why do you own it then, for improved gas mileage?

it's another opportunity for the twisted psychologists to prove you are stupid.

i realize some of the sports cars look good and that is reason alone to want or drive one.

but practicality as well as sensibility come into question.

you spend more on gasoline, your insurance rates are higher, and you aren't really any less in danger while driving.

you spend twice as much, but do you go twice as fast? no.

if you think you are twice as safe, then you've got real issues with anger towards innocent potential.

because not every parent puts their kids in a minivan where most people assume children are inside.

 

computers are another example, you go out and spend $2,000 - $3,000 on a prebuilt computer made to play video games.

yet you can build your own piece by piece for about half that, AND some of the pieces come with a lifetime warranty.

 

now with that said, moving on to speakers.

you do realize there's a lot of people who don't use an equalizer to calibrate their frequency response, right?

you do realize the reason they tell you to put your speakers in a specific area angled at a specific toe-in is to try to help your frequency response get a little bit more flat without using an equalizer, right?

you do realize harmonic distortion at the listening position is rather common, thus speakers can be built to work with those harmonics by basically using the harmonic distortion at the listening position - flip the distortion backwards and play it from the speaker to get a perfect waveform at the listening position, right?

with that said, you realize one speaker compared to the next is made for a different size room - right?

 

master speaker sellers know they've got a stock of speakers for different size rooms, and if you are too lazy to calibrate the frequency response they can help you by selling you a pair of speakers that will get the flattest frequency response in your room.

but you'll pay a premium price for the laziness, and you will think the price is justified because they sound like an improvement.

 

you people realize speakers are sounding better and better?

look at television speakers, look at the speakers you connect to a cellphone, listen to stock speakers in a vehicle.

those are three very good ways to realize speaker manufacturers are pushing out higher quality.

 

i had a pair of speakers that sounded good, i could literally hear a gap of air between a male actor and a female actor talking at the same time.

i paid $40 for those speakers, but i abused them and one of them blew (too much pressure from the woofer caused the midrange to bottom out more times than it liked)

 

now i've got replacement midranges that i spent about $30 each from parts express.

they don't separate the vocals as the old ones did, but the old ones also sounded shrill as if there was lots of tin to the sound.

these midranges i've got now do a good job of providing a 180 degree soundfield with some reverberant splashes on the rear wall.

am i impressed with the splashes on the rear wall? no, absolutely not.

i had a pair of car speakers from the 1990's that could project a sound source on the back wall that was louder than the sound coming from the speakers themselves and it didn't matter if you walked around the room because the sound source on the backwall remained stronger than the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

i did that with reverb, and you won't find such a good reverb from a vst plugin as i've looked for one and couldn't find one that has as many advanced controls.

do these new midranges sound shrill? not anywhere close to what the old ones sounded like.

are they totally transparent? no, not compared to a pair of sony headphones that i calibrated with a microphone (but those broke) and i only paid $70? for those from best buy.

what do i mean when i say transparent? i mean i had the calibrated headphones on my ears and i talked into the microphone and i couldn't tell if i was listening to myself talk or if i was wearing headphones.

 

i don't use a center channel, and i don't need to.

i've got sound filling the entire screen, literally on the screen as it should be rather than spewing out from a speaker - and it's just as loud as the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

 

your thoughts on speakers automatically sounding better because they are in a higher price range is simply a psychology test you are failing.

a manufacturer with a good source of materials can build a pair of three-way speakers including their cabinets for less than the cost of a meal.

then you go out there and spend 1,000x - 10,000x the price it cost to build them.

abusing people who point out there is good quality in the lower price categories, you fuel sociopathic behavior from the people making such large profits.

maybe you need to think about what it takes to fuel money and|or power crazed individuals.

from history's point of view, there's been a lot of money made in the last three decades and it's time to start filtering those people out because too much money or too much power can cause a person's character to break down.

you might not see it if they are steadily rolling along their path, but if a situation were to arise that breaks them from their normal path then there's a good chance they'll show it then.

 

i don't trust anybodies forum post claiming a speaker sounds good.

i read people say repeatedly a pair of studio monitors sounded good, they said they sounded better than a lot of other things.

yet i happened to hear a pair and they sounded worse than a lot of other speakers - in fact, i've heard stock vehicle systems sound better than those 'studio-grade' speakers.

 

you gotta remember, people might recommend speakers simply because they are somehow invested in the company and could see money going into their pocket if more of them get sold.

could be investors.

could be source material providers.

could be family or friends in a group buy saving money.

could be companies who get money invested into their business by these companies selling high priced products.

 

and for what it is worth, there shouldn't be an argument between objective sound quality versus subjective sound quality.

reference exists for a reason.

transparency is important, no different than being able to produce audio mastering effects - from panning anywhere in 180 degrees onward to 3d sound up to the massive 4d sound (turning around and seeing the back to a 3d object).

 

realize not all speakers are meant for the same purpose.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source anywhere around the speaker tower, but not fill a room with sound.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source onto an object while hidden away from sight.

some speakers are meant to fill a living room with sound.

some speakers are meant to pour out sound with a much more narrow dispersion to keep the reflections to a minimum (PA speakers).

i think PA speakers might also purposefully remove a lot of the 180 degree panning in the stereo field (though it could be the amplifiers, or a combination of the two - and it makes sense too, because the audio mastering has no idea how far away from the walls the speakers are and thus they simply cannot design the sound effects for the room)

but this holds true for all you people listening to the standard speaker placement guide, as i've said those guides are to help with room modes.

the audio mastering engineers have no idea how far away your speakers are from the walls and they simply cannot design sound effects that way.

all they know is most rooms are square or rectangle, it is up to you to care from there.

i've shown myself a stereo set of speakers can provide a solid sound source behind the listening position.

there is little stopping the audio industry from continuing to build on the number of available virtual speaker locations.

yet instead of making the amplifiers more capable, they simply ask us to buy more speakers and put them in the room to help with those virtual speaker locations (something i don't totally agree with).

i think there are bound to be circumstances were more speakers in the room simply isn't possible, especially when you consider all of those speakers are supposed to be full range into the sub harmonics regardless of a subwoofer being used.

you want the full effect, then you need to realize PRESSURE can have a source and it adds to the experience.

plus there's opportunity to apply subtle changes in the pressure of the entire room that can really make a hot or cold scene more enveloping.

 

you forget there's a whole bunch of houses that are about 100 years old and the size of the rooms are small?

for audiophiles, it can be hard enough to find a house with a living room that has four walls.

but then find a house with a living room big enough for 7 or 9 full range speakers? that is asking too much.

 

i think there are people who would rather be with a transparent sound more than the sound effects, while the others would rather hear the sound effects more than vocal accuracy, and yet there are others that want both.

for what it is worth, all of you say one speaker or the other sounds 'good' but you didn't say the reason.

you aren't helping other people, you are helping yourselves.

there is always the question, are the speakers calibrated for the listening position or are they simply a good match for the room size?

from my point of view, receivers are coming with some calibration techniques and there's additional calibration possibilities available.

that causes me to believe speakers built for specific room sizes are going to be less common.

i see a lot of speakers available for sale with lower power ratings, that tells me there is a fight going on for speakers that can play loud enough to fill a room.

if they aren't loud enough to fill the room, and they don't sound like an improvement - what is keeping the money coming in? why are these speakers still for sale instead of replacing them with something that will sell?

a good speaker can sell itself if people simply calibrate the frequency response and hear it.

when you go to a store to demo a speaker, how do you know the worst sounding speaker isn't one that is made to play with opposite distortion of the room to cancel eachother out to create a good waveform at the listening position?

i would avoid those speakers if you plan on calibrating the frequency response.

 

Could you expand on that?

[Paul R]

Wow- what a sad ramble this is. Sounds to me like you have hit some hard times. Hope things work out for younand you feel better soon. Some good ideas in there, mixed in with the rants.

 

 

this forum is one of the most distorted i've ever come across.

lets face it, speakers can cost less than a single dollar to make.

if you think money rules the world, then aliens could learn about our planet and simply attack all of the richest people in the world to seriously set back our evolution efforts.

and if that doesn't happen, people other than the rich will start to go into chaos because they see people with money spending more while enjoying more on what they spent.

they might not be breaking windows and stealing things from the store and flooding the streets.

they might instead abuse people.

 

i live in an area that does a good job of proving money doesn't rule the world.

you can travel 30 miles north and people doing the same jobs get paid more because the average house is bigger.

but while they shower themselves in more money and bigger houses, they are also closer to a big city (chicago) and if a zombie situation broke out in the city (or really any cause of panic), their town would be flooded with problems before us.

 

remember when lcd televisions first came out?

they ranged in prices between $1,500 - $5,000 and it didn't matter how much you spent because the televisions still broke.

 

if all the good shows came on premium channels such as hbo or something, then there'd be hundreds of other channels nobody would pay for.

the entertainment industry would satisfy only the rich who could afford to pay for hundreds of other channels while subscribing to the premium channels and then they'd really only watch, what, a dozen channels?

 

you hang out at a mechanic shop you'll see it doesn't matter if you spend a premium on a luxury brand such as cadillac, in fact you'll see more of those premium vehicles in there needing repair than the cheaper vehicles.

same is true for the premium models within a manufacturer's brand name.

you've got money to buy a sports car, but you aren't going into details about why the vehicle is supposedly better.

you aren't learning about the front to back weight ratio, you aren't learning about the suspension balance, you aren't learning about the engine design.

a lot of people simply pay the price to expect more from their sport car.

they get in and go without practice or experience.

they assume the engine is an improvement over regular vehicles, yet they fail to understand what makes an engine more fast.

their engines get lower mpg thus the design is inefficient thus the design can't possibly be an improvement.

 

simply because you work a job that pays more, that doesn't necessarily say you are smarter because people can go to school and memorize how to do something.

as far as i'm concerned, if you are busy working then you've got less time to learn the details of vehicles and therefore when you fork out a larger amount of money you are basically proving guilt towards the category you are spending while showing innocence from the category you saved the money from.

you expect the innocence of working to grant you rights towards the improved performance of the vehicle, but with the improved performance you also improve the chances of causing an accident or somebody getting in your way causing an accident.

you say you don't drive the vehicle like a sports car? well why do you own it then, for improved gas mileage?

it's another opportunity for the twisted psychologists to prove you are stupid.

i realize some of the sports cars look good and that is reason alone to want or drive one.

but practicality as well as sensibility come into question.

you spend more on gasoline, your insurance rates are higher, and you aren't really any less in danger while driving.

you spend twice as much, but do you go twice as fast? no.

if you think you are twice as safe, then you've got real issues with anger towards innocent potential.

because not every parent puts their kids in a minivan where most people assume children are inside.

 

computers are another example, you go out and spend $2,000 - $3,000 on a prebuilt computer made to play video games.

yet you can build your own piece by piece for about half that, AND some of the pieces come with a lifetime warranty.

 

now with that said, moving on to speakers.

you do realize there's a lot of people who don't use an equalizer to calibrate their frequency response, right?

you do realize the reason they tell you to put your speakers in a specific area angled at a specific toe-in is to try to help your frequency response get a little bit more flat without using an equalizer, right?

you do realize harmonic distortion at the listening position is rather common, thus speakers can be built to work with those harmonics by basically using the harmonic distortion at the listening position - flip the distortion backwards and play it from the speaker to get a perfect waveform at the listening position, right?

with that said, you realize one speaker compared to the next is made for a different size room - right?

 

master speaker sellers know they've got a stock of speakers for different size rooms, and if you are too lazy to calibrate the frequency response they can help you by selling you a pair of speakers that will get the flattest frequency response in your room.

but you'll pay a premium price for the laziness, and you will think the price is justified because they sound like an improvement.

 

you people realize speakers are sounding better and better?

look at television speakers, look at the speakers you connect to a cellphone, listen to stock speakers in a vehicle.

those are three very good ways to realize speaker manufacturers are pushing out higher quality.

 

i had a pair of speakers that sounded good, i could literally hear a gap of air between a male actor and a female actor talking at the same time.

i paid $40 for those speakers, but i abused them and one of them blew (too much pressure from the woofer caused the midrange to bottom out more times than it liked)

 

now i've got replacement midranges that i spent about $30 each from parts express.

they don't separate the vocals as the old ones did, but the old ones also sounded shrill as if there was lots of tin to the sound.

these midranges i've got now do a good job of providing a 180 degree soundfield with some reverberant splashes on the rear wall.

am i impressed with the splashes on the rear wall? no, absolutely not.

i had a pair of car speakers from the 1990's that could project a sound source on the back wall that was louder than the sound coming from the speakers themselves and it didn't matter if you walked around the room because the sound source on the backwall remained stronger than the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

i did that with reverb, and you won't find such a good reverb from a vst plugin as i've looked for one and couldn't find one that has as many advanced controls.

do these new midranges sound shrill? not anywhere close to what the old ones sounded like.

are they totally transparent? no, not compared to a pair of sony headphones that i calibrated with a microphone (but those broke) and i only paid $70? for those from best buy.

what do i mean when i say transparent? i mean i had the calibrated headphones on my ears and i talked into the microphone and i couldn't tell if i was listening to myself talk or if i was wearing headphones.

 

i don't use a center channel, and i don't need to.

i've got sound filling the entire screen, literally on the screen as it should be rather than spewing out from a speaker - and it's just as loud as the sound coming from the speakers themselves.

 

your thoughts on speakers automatically sounding better because they are in a higher price range is simply a psychology test you are failing.

a manufacturer with a good source of materials can build a pair of three-way speakers including their cabinets for less than the cost of a meal.

then you go out there and spend 1,000x - 10,000x the price it cost to build them.

abusing people who point out there is good quality in the lower price categories, you fuel sociopathic behavior from the people making such large profits.

maybe you need to think about what it takes to fuel money and|or power crazed individuals.

from history's point of view, there's been a lot of money made in the last three decades and it's time to start filtering those people out because too much money or too much power can cause a person's character to break down.

you might not see it if they are steadily rolling along their path, but if a situation were to arise that breaks them from their normal path then there's a good chance they'll show it then.

 

i don't trust anybodies forum post claiming a speaker sounds good.

i read people say repeatedly a pair of studio monitors sounded good, they said they sounded better than a lot of other things.

yet i happened to hear a pair and they sounded worse than a lot of other speakers - in fact, i've heard stock vehicle systems sound better than those 'studio-grade' speakers.

 

you gotta remember, people might recommend speakers simply because they are somehow invested in the company and could see money going into their pocket if more of them get sold.

could be investors.

could be source material providers.

could be family or friends in a group buy saving money.

could be companies who get money invested into their business by these companies selling high priced products.

 

and for what it is worth, there shouldn't be an argument between objective sound quality versus subjective sound quality.

reference exists for a reason.

transparency is important, no different than being able to produce audio mastering effects - from panning anywhere in 180 degrees onward to 3d sound up to the massive 4d sound (turning around and seeing the back to a 3d object).

 

realize not all speakers are meant for the same purpose.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source anywhere around the speaker tower, but not fill a room with sound.

some speakers might be made to cast a phantom sound source onto an object while hidden away from sight.

some speakers are meant to fill a living room with sound.

some speakers are meant to pour out sound with a much more narrow dispersion to keep the reflections to a minimum (PA speakers).

i think PA speakers might also purposefully remove a lot of the 180 degree panning in the stereo field (though it could be the amplifiers, or a combination of the two - and it makes sense too, because the audio mastering has no idea how far away from the walls the speakers are and thus they simply cannot design the sound effects for the room)

but this holds true for all you people listening to the standard speaker placement guide, as i've said those guides are to help with room modes.

the audio mastering engineers have no idea how far away your speakers are from the walls and they simply cannot design sound effects that way.

all they know is most rooms are square or rectangle, it is up to you to care from there.

i've shown myself a stereo set of speakers can provide a solid sound source behind the listening position.

there is little stopping the audio industry from continuing to build on the number of available virtual speaker locations.

yet instead of making the amplifiers more capable, they simply ask us to buy more speakers and put them in the room to help with those virtual speaker locations (something i don't totally agree with).

i think there are bound to be circumstances were more speakers in the room simply isn't possible, especially when you consider all of those speakers are supposed to be full range into the sub harmonics regardless of a subwoofer being used.

you want the full effect, then you need to realize PRESSURE can have a source and it adds to the experience.

plus there's opportunity to apply subtle changes in the pressure of the entire room that can really make a hot or cold scene more enveloping.

 

you forget there's a whole bunch of houses that are about 100 years old and the size of the rooms are small?

for audiophiles, it can be hard enough to find a house with a living room that has four walls.

but then find a house with a living room big enough for 7 or 9 full range speakers? that is asking too much.

 

i think there are people who would rather be with a transparent sound more than the sound effects, while the others would rather hear the sound effects more than vocal accuracy, and yet there are others that want both.

for what it is worth, all of you say one speaker or the other sounds 'good' but you didn't say the reason.

you aren't helping other people, you are helping yourselves.

there is always the question, are the speakers calibrated for the listening position or are they simply a good match for the room size?

from my point of view, receivers are coming with some calibration techniques and there's additional calibration possibilities available.

that causes me to believe speakers built for specific room sizes are going to be less common.

i see a lot of speakers available for sale with lower power ratings, that tells me there is a fight going on for speakers that can play loud enough to fill a room.

if they aren't loud enough to fill the room, and they don't sound like an improvement - what is keeping the money coming in? why are these speakers still for sale instead of replacing them with something that will sell?

a good speaker can sell itself if people simply calibrate the frequency response and hear it.

when you go to a store to demo a speaker, how do you know the worst sounding speaker isn't one that is made to play with opposite distortion of the room to cancel eachother out to create a good waveform at the listening position?

i would avoid those speakers if you plan on calibrating the frequency response.

[carewser]

Could you expand on that?

 

I agree, elaborate.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Could you expand on that?

+1

[anwaypasible]

Could you expand on that?

 

'that' is grossly defined.

you've made it certain my conduct will miss, thus the misconduct.

i can't help you if you don't help yourself to help me.

[DigiPete]

this forum is one of the most distorted i've ever come across.

lets face it, speakers can cost less than a single dollar to make.

if you think money rules the world, then aliens could learn about our planet and simply attack all of the richest people in the world to seriously set back our evolution efforts.

and if that doesn't happen, people other than the rich will start to go into chaos because they see people with money spending more while enjoying more on what they spent.

 

And so on . .

 

 

1) This is an international forum, so people actually come from all walks of life and from the whole world.

I am from Denmark., nobody is poor in my country, and I'm fighting politically to keep it that way.

Consider voting for Bernie Sanders if you like that kind of egalitarian system.

 

2) The audiophile community generally prefers highly resoluted, low distorted, full range natural sound of linear frequency response.

There are variations, but it is futile to get all upset about it.

 

3) People are not evil because they have money to buy good sound equipment!

Some save for a long time, some just make a lot of money, som buy everything second hand and some of us comes from areas with no poor people.

Consider buying a set of the best equipment you can afford, new or second hand, good enough that it will never break.

I bet you'll save in the long run.

Again, consider voting for Bernie Sanders if you like the more egalitarian solution.

 

4) People are not evil because they have university degrees or other higher education.

I find that no good education is ever wasted on anybody.

Also, as you actually get paid to go to university in the Nordic countries, people here have higher education independently of parents demographics.

Again, consider putting your energy into the Bernie Sanders campaign, if that is your style.

 

5) Systems that can self calibrate are more likely to keep satisfying you in your life, thus you don't have to re-buy if you move. Changing hardware to tweak sound is so last century.

System sound in your home is also predictably more like it was in the shop or at your friend's place.

 

6) I agree that our rampaging capitalistic system is creating havoc in peoples lives and on mother earth.

Yet, yelling in somebody's window (or forum) will not change anything.

What works? Personal choices, consumer choices, carefully arguing, work choices and political work!

 

 

And a virtual audio hug, if you care for that kind of thing.

Good luck.

[Richard Dale]

'that' is grossly defined.

you've made it certain my conduct will miss, thus the misconduct.

i can't help you if you don't help yourself to help me.

 

Well one tip I can give you is to avoid saying something like "this forum is one of the most distorted i've ever come across." in the first line of your first post on joining a new forum. And try to keep your comments concise and about the topic of the thread if you actually want to engage in discussions with other members of the forum