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Discussion of LiFePO4 battery mods of REGEN and other out-of-warranty adventures


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You simply plug in the Regen power to charge the battery, and unplug it to listen via battery. It really couldn't get easier than that. Alternately you may leave it plugged in for a constant trickle charge with the aforementioned shared ground.

 

Could you use a simple timer that would turn on/off charging automatically, say during periods when you generally aren't listening to your system (e.g. 2 AM to 9 AM)?

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The USB Regen requires a constant 3.3V supply. That small 22650 battery pack, unplugged from John Kenny's recommended 3.3V regulated power supply, cannot supply 3.3V to the USB Regen continuously across six hours of discharge, without dropping in voltage. It's unlikely the battery can maintain the 3.3V required by the USB Regen for even one hour of discharge.

Have you got some experience with these batteries? You might be surprised what they are capable of

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Could you use a simple timer that would turn on/off charging automatically, say during periods when you generally aren't listening to your system (e.g. 2 AM to 9 AM)?

 

Yes, that's a great idea as long as the USB Regen can perform well at voltages between mmerrill99's stated 3.0V and 3.65V (having bypassed its 3.3V regulator), and you somehow ensure that the battery pack never falls below mmerrill99's stated 3.0V minimum between charge cycles.

 

If the load is only 100mA and the battery pack has a capacity of 3300mAh at a higher load, you would theoretically stay clear of 3.0V for at least 33 hours, but why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

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quote_icon.png Originally Posted by zilch0md viewpost-right.png

The USB Regen requires a constant 3.3V supply. That small 22650 battery pack, unplugged from John Kenny's recommended 3.3V regulated power supply, cannot supply 3.3V to the USB Regen continuously across six hours of discharge, without dropping in voltage. It's unlikely the battery can maintain the 3.3V required by the USBRegen for even one hour of discharge.

 

Have you got some experience with these batteries? You might be surprised what they are capable of

 

I have no experience using that 22650 battery pack with the load presented by the USB Regen, but given that they have a nominal rating of 3.2V and a capacity of 3300mAH, I would be really surprised to discover they can maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge, having just been unplugged from John Kenny's recommended 3.3V regulated power supply.

 

That was the contention you have quoted.

 

But now, going on the information you've since provided, where you're suggesting the USB Regen will be content with any voltage ranging from 3.0V to 3.65V, having bypassed its 3.3V regulator, I would agree that it's unlikely that a 100mA load (your estimate for the USB Regen) could discharge a 3300mAh battery pack, beginning at 3.3V, down to 3.0V, even after 17 hours of play, as proposed by ericuco, before recharging it.

 

But why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

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My first thought is it would be much ado about nothing. Just leave it charging unless you are critically listening. I find it unlikely that it would be much of a down grade if you are casually listening while doing other things. It should act like a big capacitor. This is speculation as I do not know what the charge rate and such will be. Anyone know the ESR/storage density/ect of current super capacitors vs these?

Could you use a simple timer that would turn on/off charging automatically, say during periods when you generally aren't listening to your system (e.g. 2 AM to 9 AM)?

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I have no experience using that 22650 battery pack with the load presented by the USB Regen, but given that they have a nominal rating of 3.2V and a capacity of 3300mAH, I would be really surprised to discover they can maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge, having just been unplugged from John Kenny's recommended 3.3V regulated power supply.

 

That was the contention you have quoted.

One of the characteristics of these batteries is their discharge curve which unlike in other batteries their output voltage remains very flat during discharge - it's one of the issues in using these batteries - it makes it difficult to estimate energy remaining - a necessary function required in any system relying on battery management.

 

As can be seen on the graph you posted, the voltage remains fairly constant (even more constant at 100mA current draw or 0.03C) until near 80 to 90% empty, at which stage it drops off steeply.

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One of the characteristics of these batteries is their discharge curve which unlike in other batteries their output voltage remains very flat during discharge - it's one of the issues in using these batteries - it makes it difficult to estimate energy remaining - a necessary function required in any system relying on battery management.

 

As can be seen on the graph you posted, the voltage remains fairly constant (even more constant at 100mA current draw or 0.03C) until near 80 to 90% empty, at which stage it drops off steeply.

 

All of this is fine if the USB Regen can be happy with the supply voltage dropping below 3.3V (and no further than 3.0V).

 

But would you expect to see this battery "maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge" (my original contention) even at 100mA current draw or 0.03C?

 

And why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

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My first thought is it would be much ado about nothing. Just leave it charging unless you are critically listening. I find it unlikely that it would be much of a down grade if you are casually listening while doing other things. It should act like a big capacitor. This is speculation as I do not know what the charge rate and such will be. Anyone know the ESR/storage density/ect of current super capacitors vs these?

 

I don't, but...

 

Quoting John Kenny's post to an AA thread:

 

I already answered the question about any noise coming from the charger - the battery acts a a very large capacitor effective over a wide frequency range & absorbs 99% of any noise. Try it with various chargers & see if you can hear or measure noise on the battery output.

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All of this is fine if the USB Regen can be happy with the supply voltage dropping below 3.3V (and no further than 3.0V).

 

But would you expect to see this battery "maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge" (my original contention) even at 100mA current draw or 0.03C?

 

And why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

Yes, I expect the batteries will maintain a constant 3.2V (this voltage will not be detrimental to the Regen's USB hub chip or clock) over 6 hours powering a load which only requires max of 100mA or 0.03C current.

 

But, yes, there's probably no need to run solely off battery - just use the 3.3V regulated supply as recommended

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Originally Posted by zilch0md viewpost-right.pngAll of this is fine if the USB Regen can be happy with the supply voltage dropping below 3.3V (and no further than 3.0V).

 

But would you expect to see this battery "maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge" (my original contention) even at 100mA current draw or 0.03C?

 

And why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

 

 

Yes, I expect the batteries will maintain a constant 3.2V (this voltage will not be detrimental to the Regen's USB hub chip or clock) over 6 hours powering a load which only requires max of 100mA or 0.03C current.

 

[snip]

 

 

I'll take that as a "No, I would not expect the batteries to maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge, as you had originally contented."

 

[snip]

 

But, yes, there's probably no need to run solely off battery - just use the 3.3V regulated supply as recommended.

Thanks,

 

Mike

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But why not do as John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play, so that it is never supplying the USB Regen with a voltage any higher or lower than 3.3V?

 

Keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V Linear supply during play, means that the Regen now has a minor earth loop which is best avoided if possible. Many people will not agree that power, even from a low noise Li Po battery is necessarily better than the power from a good low noise linear PSU using a Super Regulator of some kind.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V Linear supply during play, means that the Regen now has a minor earth loop which is best avoided if possible. Many people will not agree that power, even from a low noise Li Po battery is necessarily better than the power from a good low noise linear PSU using a Super Regulator of some kind.

 

You keep missing the point. It's the quality of the 3.3V regulator inside the Regen that is in question. Not an external one. Would you propose replacing or bypassing the Regen 3.3V regulator with a new "Super" one? In that case, the battery proposal seems a more simple solution and allow the Regen 3.3V regulator to do the charging when not in critical listening. So what if the battery wears out sooner in time, can always do a quick easy replacement.

For myself with the Chord Hugo and Regen in close proximity, this solution makes perfect sense and ease of use.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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I'll take that as a "No, I would not expect the batteries to maintain a constant output of 3.3V across six hours of discharge, as you had originally contented."

 

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

As I said a constant 3.3V or 3.2V will not make any material difference or be detrimental to the device being powered

 

I never made the contention about 3.3V - don't assign that to me - that was your mistaken contention, not mine!

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Keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V Linear supply during play, means that the Regen now has a minor earth loop which is best avoided if possible. Many people will not agree that power, even from a low noise Li Po battery is necessarily better than the power from a good low noise linear PSU using a Super Regulator of some kind.

Using a LPS introduces no more nor less of an earth loop than the existing power solution used with Regen

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Hi Gents:

 

I'm just beginning to plug back in after being away for a week. So I have caught up on all that has been posted here (and some on AA) with regards John Kenny's suggestion to jump after the REGEN's 3.3V reg and use a LiFePO4 battery.

 

I am going to be chatting with John Swenson later today (mostly about other things and the status of our "mystery" PS boards) and will ask about this. What does not make much sense to me is that the TI TPS7A4700 is already the lowest noise 1A chip regulator on the planet (https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/new-breed-of-ultra-low-noise-regulators/) and Kenny is suggesting instead using an unregulated battery with an SMPS trickle-charging it.

 

Without getting into the noise spectrum and impedance issues of batteries (I'm not clear on which ones do or don't have problems in these areas), if the point is to isolate the REGEN from external power supplies, then why not just run 3.7-5V battery into its input jack (assuming no need for USB 5VBUS out) and let our ultra-low-noise reg and cap network take care of the rest without mods? And why introduce some other power supply running into the battery? Maybe the battery operates as an "isolating cap," but I expect that other PS crap would creep in if another PS is concurrently charging it.

 

I'll be interested in what JS has to say about all this. Our new supply should make most of this irrelevant, but you can bet I will order in a 3.3V battery to try it myself (500 more REGEN boards arrive this week so I certainly have the luxury of screwing up a couple ;)).

 

As I have posted before, much of the fuss over powering a REGEN has eluded me in my system since my DAC, preamp, and computer are fed by isolation transformers and my REGEN's Mean Well SMPS (yes I still use it) is plugged directly into the wall on the opposite phase of the house 120/0/120V. Yes, my system sounds a little better powering the REGEN with a JS-2 (when I can spare one output or steal a second JS-2 from the production line), but it is not huge for me in comparison to what the REGEN does. Disclaimer: My DACs do not use ANY 5VBUS power.

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

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You keep missing the point. It's the quality of the 3.3V regulator inside the Regen that is in question. Not an external one. Would you propose replacing or bypassing the Regen 3.3V regulator with a new "Super" one? In that case, the battery proposal seems a more simple solution and allow the Regen 3.3V regulator to do the charging when not in critical listening. So what if the battery wears out sooner in time, can always do a quick easy replacement.

For myself with the Chord Hugo and Regen in close proximity, this solution makes perfect sense and ease of use.

 

No, you keep missing the point.Some have already powered a higher quality Xtal Oscillator using a good linear PSU and reported improved results, but the present idea from Forrest has yet to be tested by C.A. members , as far as I am aware.

There is also the risk of damage to the Regen when modifications are performed by those without good SMD device soldering skills. Damage the Regen and you will have to get on a queue to purchase a new one.

The charger should only be connected as indicated by automatic voltage supervision , perhaps using an opto coupler for isolation, to operate a relay to connect the linear PSU as required. With the charger connected permanently via a Linear PSU there will be a small earth loop as previously mentioned by John Swenson, due to capacitive coupling via the Primary and Secondary windings of the transformer via AC mains Neutral which is connected to mains Earth.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Using a LPS introduces no more nor less of an earth loop than the existing power solution used with Regen

 

I have found that using a 12V Li Ion battery regulated down to +9V followed by a Super Reg ,sounds better than a good linear +9V supply using the same Super Reg at it's output.

YMMV.

BTW, if you really want to use a 3.3V battery for the 3.3V supply, you could always use a couple of 12V 4,000mAh Li Ion batteries and chargers in conjunction with a 3.3V voltage regulator I.C. at their output to supply charging and regulation for the 3.3V battery. One of the 12V batteries could be recharging ( takes about 8 hours) while the other 12v battery is in use. This way there is no connection back to AC mains, and the 2 batteries and chargers would only cost around $30.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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As previously noted, I do not see how using the on board power supply with the battery creates any more of a ground loop than using that power supply without the battery. If I am missing something, I am open to correction. Oh, and of course there is risk, this is DIY afterall, but it all seems pretty straight forward. There may be charge current issues with the regulator, but outside of that. Anyone know the specs on that part?

 

This is not to the extent of adding a pricey clock either. The battery is about $10 USD.

No, you keep missing the point.Some have already powered a higher quality Xtal Oscillator using a good linear PSU and reported improved results, but the present idea from Forrest has yet to be tested by C.A. members , as far as I am aware.

There is also the risk of damage to the Regen when modifications are performed by those without good SMD device soldering skills. Damage the Regen and you will have to get on a queue to purchase a new one.

The charger should only be connected as indicated by automatic voltage supervision , perhaps using an opto coupler for isolation, to operate a relay to connect the linear PSU as required. With the charger connected permanently via a Linear PSU there will be a small earth loop as previously mentioned by John Swenson, due to capacitive coupling via the Primary and Secondary windings of the transformer via AC mains Neutral which is connected to mains Earth.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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As previously noted, I do not see how using the on board power supply with the battery creates any more of a ground loop than using that power supply without the battery.

4est

John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play.

Would you use a normal 3.3V linear or SMPS supply to float the 3.3V battery, or float the 3.3V battery using a very low noise 3.3V supply, preferably isolated from the mains supply ?

 

mmerill99

The onboard Xtal oscillator is best supplied using a low noise and highly stable voltage supply as discussed in another thread where they used higher quality Xtal oscillators.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I am not recommending this, but suggesting a simple solution to an earlier question. One would use whatever supply they would otherwise use. If the sound degraded appreciably when the PS was plugged in, it would suggest unplugging it during serious listening or perhaps other PS work. JK was specific about finding the battery superior vs the regulator, but there could mitigating factors.

4est

John Kenney recommends - keeping the battery connected to a regulated 3.3V supply during play.

Would you use a normal 3.3V linear or SMPS supply to float the 3.3V battery, or float the 3.3V battery using a very low noise 3.3V supply, preferably isolated from the mains supply ?

 

mmerill99

The onboard Xtal oscillator is best supplied using a low noise and highly stable voltage supply as discussed in another thread where they used higher quality Xtal oscillators.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Hi Gents:

 

I'm just beginning to plug back in after being away for a week. So I have caught up on all that has been posted here (and some on AA) with regards John Kenny's suggestion to jump after the REGEN's 3.3V reg and use a LiFePO4 battery.

 

I am going to be chatting with John Swenson later today (mostly about other things and the status of our "mystery" PS boards) and will ask about this. What does not make much sense to me is that the TI TPS7A4700 is already the lowest noise 1A chip regulator on the planet (https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/new-breed-of-ultra-low-noise-regulators/) and Kenny is suggesting instead using an unregulated battery with an SMPS trickle-charging it.

 

Without getting into the noise spectrum and impedance issues of batteries (I'm not clear on which ones do or don't have problems in these areas), if the point is to isolate the REGEN from external power supplies, then why not just run 3.7-5V battery into its input jack (assuming no need for USB 5VBUS out) and let our ultra-low-noise reg and cap network take care of the rest without mods? And why introduce some other power supply running into the battery? Maybe the battery operates as an "isolating cap," but I expect that other PS crap would creep in if another PS is concurrently charging it.

 

I'll be interested in what JS has to say about all this. Our new supply should make most of this irrelevant, but you can bet I will order in a 3.3V battery to try it myself (500 more REGEN boards arrive this week so I certainly have the luxury of screwing up a couple ;)).

 

As I have posted before, much of the fuss over powering a REGEN has eluded me in my system since my DAC, preamp, and computer are fed by isolation transformers and my REGEN's Mean Well SMPS (yes I still use it) is plugged directly into the wall on the opposite phase of the house 120/0/120V. Yes, my system sounds a little better powering the REGEN with a JS-2 (when I can spare one output or steal a second JS-2 from the production line), but it is not huge for me in comparison to what the REGEN does. Disclaimer: My DACs do not use ANY 5VBUS power.

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

 

As previously noted, I do not see how using the on board power supply with the battery creates any more of a ground loop than using that power supply without the battery. If I am missing something, I am open to correction. Oh, and of course there is risk, this is DIY afterall, but it all seems pretty straight forward. There may be charge current issues with the regulator, but outside of that. Anyone know the specs on that part?

This is not to the extent of adding a pricey clock either. The battery is about $10 USD.

 

Is this what your asking about? The onboard Regen regulator seems to output 3.3V 1amp, should work well charging the LiFePO4 battery.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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Is this what your asking about? The onboard Regen regulator seems to output 3.3V 1amp, should work well charging the LiFePO4 battery.

 

You won't be able to obtain anywhere near that amount of current from the 3.3V regulator due to it's lack of a suitable heatsink. I wouldn't want to try and charge a fully , or almost fully discharged, 3.3V battery using this internal 3.3V regulator, but I may be a little too conservative here ?

Floating the 3.3V battery when it is already close to it's nominal output voltage is an entirely different matter.

 

Perhaps John Swenson could chime in here ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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