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Mario Martinez

PlayClassics master file giveaway for CA members

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Hi Semete,

Thank you for your response in regard to the positioning of the two images in the sound field. I have listened to Mario's track again two times and found the female voice still behind. Have also compared with two other flamenco tracks and found the jaleadores cheering from behind as well. Because Mario's tracks were recorded with two microphones and did no subsequent tampering and even no adjustment of gain for left and right, I posted the question to him.

Based on the setup sketch, the correct audio reproduction should have the voice in front, positioned at the speaker plane (she is standing at the edge of the stage) and the guitar some two feet behind. I have them the other way round, voice behind and guitar in front.

I use multiple quasi ribbons for the midrange and multiple ribbons for highs, all flat facing with no toe-in. Not commercially available.

By the way, do you find the sound of the track not left and right balanced, that is, voice and guitar to one side and not in centre of the soundstage? I need to adjust the gain when listening to it, but not necessary for the Iberia piano track.

 

With my B&W CM6 S2 speakers, I hear the guitar about 1/3 of the way in from the right and the singer just left of centre. Can't say the singer appears in any way behind the guitar.

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With my B&W CM6 S2 speakers, I hear the guitar about 1/3 of the way in from the right and the singer just left of centre. Can't say the singer appears in any way behind the guitar.

Thanks Mansr.

I take it your speakers have the voice and guitar appear at about the same horizontal plane. Please refer to the setup sketch at post no. 137. I was expecting and hoping to have a correct reproduction of the voice being in front and the guitar two ft or more behind. What i got was the other way round.

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Thanks Mansr.

I take it your speakers have the voice and guitar appear at about the same horizontal plane. Please refer to the setup sketch at post no. 137. I was expecting and hoping to have a correct reproduction of the voice being in front and the guitar two ft or more behind. What i got was the other way round.

 

Yes, what I hear more or less matches the sketch. The voice isn't obviously closer, but it's definitely not behind. Knowing the setup could of course be influencing what I'm hearing, but I hadn't seen the drawing the first time I listened, and I don't recall perceiving it differently then.

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Yes, what I hear more or less matches the sketch. The voice isn't obviously closer, but it's definitely not behind. Knowing the setup could of course be influencing what I'm hearing, but I hadn't seen the drawing the first time I listened, and I don't recall perceiving it differently then.

Hi Mansr,

Good for you that what you hear more or less matches the setup sketch of the recording scene.

Perhaps I am too fastidious about layering and positioning of images. For current listening I will take the voice as being jaleadore cheering up from behind.

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I can't help but wonder why you don't record in surround.

 

With all the talk about "The Truthful Recording Technology", surround would make the most of your room conditioning.

2L consistently makes the most pristine recordings I have heard - publishing both stereo, 5.1 (sometimes 7.1) and Auro-3D 9.1.

 

I'll look forward to enjoying your stereo recording "Cabrera plays Debussy".

 

Thanks

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Haven't even listened to all of the Debussy Preludes yet, but I must say again how impressed I am by the recording. Most piano recordings today have some harshness, which I assume comes from putting mics inside the piano. That also makes the piano sound too big and too close.

 

I've never quite understood that approach - who listens with their head inside the piano, and why would you want your recording to sound like you do? I know this is oversimplifying, but that's my reaction to many piano recordings.

 

These recordings sound natural, like what you hear when you are in a room with a piano. IMO, there's no loss of detail vs. other methods, just a better, easier to listen to sound.

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Hi Mansr,

Good for you that what you hear more or less matches the setup sketch of the recording scene.

Perhaps I am too fastidious about layering and positioning of images. For current listening I will take the voice as being jaleadore cheering up from behind.

 

 

Hi Francis,

 

The purpose of our setup is to record the musical event exactly the way it happened, it is a documentary approach. This type of recording is very demanding on the musicians. Here the artists are responsible for the balance between instruments, just like they would be in an acoustic live performance without any amplification. Once we capture that performance, there is nothing we can do to alter that balance. The artists have to be able to control their dynamics to balance out the performance for themselves.

 

Classical music artists are used to doing this. They do it at every performance. But what happens when you try to record other genres?

 

Flamenco is usually recorded using close miking techniques. They are used to having the engineer balance their performance at the mixing table. They were here for just one hour trying things out. They ended up making the recording this way to try to compensate for the fact that her voice was not so big and the guitarist sound was big. So the sketch is correct, the singer was closer to the mics and the guitarist was further back. Had they been here long enough, I am sure they would have been able to balance themselves to be able to sit next to each other on the stage.

 

If your system was "flat", what you should be hearing is a not so big voice closer to you and a big guitar sound further back. Their difference in loudness should compensate for their position so, if you are not looking at the sketch, it should sound like they are more or less at the same level.

 

There also exists the possibility that the system you are on is not totally "flat". A hole on the right spot could easily through the balance off resulting on one of both instruments appearing further back than it should.

 

So which one of these things is what you are really hearing I do not know. I wished you could hear the recording on different systems to see if what you are hearing is not system related. I hope this helps.

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I can't help but wonder why you don't record in surround.

 

With all the talk about "The Truthful Recording Technology", surround would make the most of your room conditioning.

2L consistently makes the most pristine recordings I have heard - publishing both stereo, 5.1 (sometimes 7.1) and Auro-3D 9.1.

 

I'll look forward to enjoying your stereo recording "Cabrera plays Debussy".

 

As someone who finds 2L's close mic'ed recording "un-natural" sounding ("detail" is exaggerated, and the tonal balance is brighter than life) I am interested in reading what you have to say about PlayClassics' sound.

 

R

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Hi Mario,

Thank you for providing information on the recording scene and how the voice relative to the guitar in the flamenco track should be positioned when reproduced in an audio system.

As you suggested, my system may not be "flat" and indeed I have never measured it.

Anyhow, I was able to get the positioning correct in the Ideale track, with Francisco the tenor standing and singing in front of the piano as shown in your sketch.

Will explore the issue later on.

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I've been listening to the Flamenco tracks and the singer appears to be positioned closer than the guitar.

 

The higher dynamic range and "clarity" of the recording could also be responsible for giving a false impression to those that are not accustomed.

 

R

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I've been listening to the Flamenco tracks and the singer appears to be positioned closer than the guitar.

 

The higher dynamic range and "clarity" of the recording could also be responsible for giving a false impression to those that are not accustomed.

 

R

 

Good that you have the correct positioning as depicted in the sketch.

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I made a quick sketch of my listening impressions regarding space and positioning.

 

6tl2eq.jpg

 

My speakers aren't positioned symmetrically in the room and this could be skewing the position of the guitar in relation to the right speaker...

 

R

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Hello Mario, if your gift certificate offer is still available I would like to review "Cabrera play Debussy".

Many thanks, Blu

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I made a quick sketch of my listening impressions regarding space and positioning.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22422[/ATTACH]

 

My speakers aren't positioned symmetrically in the room and this could be skewing the position of the guitar in relation to the right speaker...

 

R

Hi Semente

I like your excellent sketch. Well done.

You may wish to try the Iberia piano track and the Ideale tenor/piano track.

At the same volume tuning (gain), the piano and tenor/piano should appear in the centre between your two loudspeakers, in accordance with the sketch provided by Mario. That's how I have them reproduced.

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Also, you may wish to change the channel balance when playing the flamenco track. Have the voice shift to slightly off centre to the left AND then exact centre, and see how the images of the singer and guitarist appear in relation to each other.

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Here is the weekly report.

 

We have given out 110 Gift Codes so far: 55 for Albéniz, 23 for Cabrera plays Debussy, 18 for Debussy Préludes, 9 for Chopin Polish Songs and 5 for Songs of Paolo Tosti.

 

Once again, I want to thank you for your donations: Three people reported not being able to download after their donation. That problem should be fixed now. If you do donate PayPal should automatically get you back to the album's page showing the download buttons.

 

Also, thank you for your testimonials, we have included a lot of these feedback on our web page. This is really helpful :)

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Also, you may wish to change the channel balance when playing the flamenco track. Have the voice shift to slightly off centre to the left AND then exact centre, and see how the images of the singer and guitarist appear in relation to each other.

 

Hi Francis,

 

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately my amplifier doesn't have balance controls.

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

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I have been listening to and enjoying both Iberia and Polish Songs, for which I sent in 10 euros each. Amazing sound, talented performers; what not to love? I also am intrigued by the approach toward recording the hall and not the performer. I like how this establishes a baseline of familiarity. Similar to how I enjoy listening to Chicago Symphony Orchestra recordings made in their space, because I am so familiar with its sound that I can recognize it and critique a recording by how well it reproduces that space's sound that I know so well. I can see myself learning the sound of this recording space with a similar familiarity. In any case, I would certainly enjoy a code for the Flamenco recording. Thanks for presenting us with this opportunity.

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Hi Francis,

 

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately my amplifier doesn't have balance controls.

 

Cheers,

Ricardo

 

Hi Ricardo,

I use MIDI in MacBook Pro for volume and balance controls for every track. Mark each track with them. You may wish to find it in settings or utilities somewhere.

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That's an interesting idea, thanks.

I wonder if it reduces volume through dynamic compression, though.

 

R

 

Volume control and left and right channel balance adjustment is basically gain attenuation.

Attenuating left and right channel separately in digital domain produces cleaner sound than in analogue domain.

Some years ago, I used a passive device for input selection, volume control and balance adjustment; with it plugged into DAC and amps plugged into its output.

After comparing for some time, I dispensed with it. Use MIDI instead and plug the amps directly into the DAC.

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I have been listening to and enjoying both Iberia and Polish Songs, for which I sent in 10 euros each. Amazing sound, talented performers; what not to love? I also am intrigued by the approach toward recording the hall and not the performer. I like how this establishes a baseline of familiarity. Similar to how I enjoy listening to Chicago Symphony Orchestra recordings made in their space, because I am so familiar with its sound that I can recognize it and critique a recording by how well it reproduces that space's sound that I know so well. I can see myself learning the sound of this recording space with a similar familiarity. In any case, I would certainly enjoy a code for the Flamenco recording. Thanks for presenting us with this opportunity.

 

 

Thank you very much for your feedback. I am really glad you brought this up. Creating this "baseline of familiarity" is one of the main goals of our technology.

 

The sole purpose of using a fixed setup to record everything is to make albums that consistently recreate the same space around you. It's like listening to all these artists from the same chair of the same auditorium.

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