mathaudio room EQ question

[anwaypasible]

my question is simple, my reason is a little bit more complicated.

 

 

the question: one of my speakers is about 8 inches further away than the other one, should i use time alignment after the room EQ plugin?

 

 

i've uploaded a picture of my layout, maybe it will help with confusion.

 

 

i'd like to think i could simply set the time alignment and answer the question myself, but i can't because there's like 1.5dB splash off the television next to my computer monitor.

the television is angled some towards my chair.

because of the splashing, i don't know if i'm overshooting my effort or if it is because the screen is angled.

 

 

what makes finding the answer more difficult for me..

the left speaker is by the wall .. the right side of the room doesn't have a wall.

i can see on the VU meter that room EQ has lowered the amplitude of the left side some.

makes sense to me because without the correction applied, the left side is clearly louder than the right (my balance is in the middle).

 

 

i don't know if room EQ has adjusted the delay for the left side or simply lowered the amplitude.

 

 

okay, an answer based on what i hear?

well without the time alignment vocals seem to smear from the speaker all the way to the middle.

with the time alignment, the smearing is gone and the sound is focused in the middle - plus or minus the splashing.

 

 

room EQ is supposed to fix the phase issues, but if the time alignment is wrong.. is what i'm hearing (i don't know what to call it) phase issues? cross-correlation issues? combing artifacts?

 

 

i'm SORRY because i don't know if all that ambiance is intended or not.

i know the ambiance is gone with the time alignment.

 

 

i think i'd have an answer myself if it wasn't for the television.

 

 

it's highly important to me because i plan on going around locally to calibrate people's audio and video.

i don't want to do it wrong.

 

 

as i said, i don't know if all the ambiance is a style (which would basically be THE style i guess) or artifacts.

 

 

thanks for reading my post.

 

[wgscott]

Why do you have two TVs?

 

Also, can you center the chair or center the sofa and get rid of the chair? Can you rotate everything 90° to the left, so the open wall is behind you?

 

Having said all that, can you do the time-delay compensation first, since you know the distances unambiguously, and then do the equalization?

[anwaypasible]

i have two TVs because one is a computer monitor and the other is the television for cable.

 

i can't center the chair because next to the desk the TVs are on is the desktop computer (my old one fit on the lower shelf of the table, but this new one that was given to me doesn't fit)

if i moved everything over to the right, the speaker would be right up against the desktop (or the table) and then the speaker cone wouldn't be able to disperse the sound as well.

 

i've thought about rotating everything 90° .. but i really can't because there's an in-wall air conditioner on that wall under the windows.

 

i can't do the time delay first because my receiver's time delay settings tie the front two speakers together.

(if i could i certainly wouldn't be here)

 

hmm.. now that i think about it, i might be able to set the speaker configuration to 5.1 in the realtek control panel and set the delays there.. but i dunno if it will work because nothing else in the control panel works except for the mute button.

 

i've got virtual audio cable going to liveprofessor going to asio4all.

 

--- yeah i just tried & the distance delays don't work with the way i've got it setup (the individual volumes didn't work either)

 

the only choice i've got to do time delay is with a VST plugin.

 

 

i think the sound should focus itself in the middle with no smearing on the sides, that way virtual speakers can exist on the left and right of the middle.

i mean, how are we supposed to hear virtual speakers if the air is filled with smeared audio?

 

i don't want to set the time alignment, then need to adjust the delay different than the delay based on the distance because what if doing that causes artifacts in the middle of the soundstage.

 

i chuckle at the thought of nobody knowing what those artifacts sound like because they always setup the system perfectly.

 

thanks for your attempt to bringing me additional help.

[wgscott]

Can you rotate everything 45° to the left? Sometimes having stuff at an angle can be very beneficial in a problematic room. (I do this in my room.) If you can get the room right, you won't have to ask the software to do anything extreme, and it is more likely to improve the sound.

[anwaypasible]

rotating the room 45 degrees would put me 2.5 ft away from the air conditioner (too close)

plus the speaker would need to go right in front of the air conditioner.

 

no, that wall isn't long enough to make the move happen.

[anwaypasible]

see.. the way the television is angled, it's like there's a tip of a triangle exactly where the sound wants to come from.

 

i think the angle is allowing reflections to accumulate and though it may only be .5dB louder.. the increased delay time is causing that area to be perceptually louder.

 

i believe that is a strong reason.. i believe cleaning up the air to hear virtual speakers is another strong reason.

 

but i'm prepared to hear the industry is doing something i disagree with, it wouldn't be the first time.

 

thinking about the reflections and the decay, i'm now confident enough to try the time alignment somewhere where there isn't a reflection problem near the middle of the soundstage.

 

perhaps neglect makes me want to hear the answer from somebody else.

though i'm not trying to simply hear the answer.. i would enjoy talking about what are those artifacts, what they sound like, why they sound the way they do.

 

i wonder if all the new receivers come with individual distance settings for the front speakers.

[wgscott]

Most of the people who post here are dead against any sort of DSP, and many of the rest of us (like me) are using a commercial package like Dirac on a computer, and spent a lot of time trying to get the room idealized first. I don't mean to discourage you, but you might have better luck on AVSforum or some place like that.

[Jud]

Are you sitting in the chair at the desk when you are listening, or is it possible for you to sit on the sofa (approx. centered between the speakers) with the chair pushed under the desk?

 

If the former, not trying to be a wiseass, but this seems like a perfect situation for a decent pair of headphones.

 

If the latter, then I'd have a look at the book Get Better Sound by Jim Smith and see what small movements of the various items in the room (especially the speakers out more from the corners and back wall if possible) can do for the room response *before* you start playing with DSP. If you can get things pretty well corrected without DSP, great; if not, at least you'll leave the least possible correction for DSP to do.

[anwaypasible]

i agree.. constantly listening to the splash from the television screen is really bad compared to listening with headphones.

 

i had a pillow between the sides of the monitors to keep the reflections outta there.

well i pulled the pillow out towards the front to block the side of the computer monitor with the front of the television.

that's when things got clever.

 

there was still some reflections coming off the side of the pillow that mixed with reflections coming off the front of the television.

but there wasn't any sound coming off the front of the pillow (the part facing the listening position).

what that tells me is, the time alignment isn't focused directly at that spot.

because if it was, there would be sound on the pillow from the left and right pressures holding it there.

 

i'm going to make the switch from using the computer monitor for the computer (and using the television to watch tv while being on the computer) to simply using the television as the computer monitor.

i can see the aperture grill somewhat, but if i love sound i should make the effort.

besides, i'll be able to move the chair more centered between the spekers.. and i could move the table over some more to give the speaker cone more room to radiate.

 

i should be able to center the computer chair with the sofa too, and that will give me valid time alignment for the sofa as well.

 

just a little sad though, because this computer monitor was calibrated with digital video essentials and it scores almost perfect for red, green, and blue.

the green is uber close compared to all the other monitors and televisions i've calibrated.

 

 

as far as moving the speakers out of the corners and away from the wall, i'm not really certain if you are talking about drawing them in some as well as pulling them away from the wall.

but either way, the master's know the following..

'For 3D layouts, there is unfortunately only a very limited number (five) regular layouts, the so-called platonic solids. (cube, tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedron, dodecahedron)'

 

this article is only 12 pages long, but i found it to be a decent read.

http://flo.mur.at/writings/HOA-intro.pdf

 

 

see.. some people don't comprehend the way virtual speakers work.

therefore they simply go by the dolby suggestion.

though to their defense, 30 degrees of angle from speaker to listening position might perhaps be the one valid key point as for the front speakers (or the angles of the other speakers as well).

what that translates to is how far away or how close your listening position needs to be from the corners of the wall to maintain their suggested angle.

 

 

if you think about it, and you know how virtual speakers work..

it doesn't make sense to make the situation more difficult by removing the speaker away from the corner where the multitude of soundwave programming (synthesis?) has happened for decades.

if you put the speaker cone in the corner and angle it towards the center of the room.. the cone kinda re-creates the angle of the corner doesn't it.?

 

it is utterly irrational to think dolby or dts or any sound mastering engineer knows how far away your speakers are to the side walls when you follow the typical speaker placement suggestion.

therefore they have absolutely zero idea as to how to set the timing for the virtual speakers.

 

 

once you realize all speakers go in the corner's of the room pointed towards the center of the room.. then you can move on to mastering tricks that are already programmed into the receivers.

what tricks you ask?

my receiver has the options to choose if the rear speakers are into one of three categories.

behind - give or take 20-30 degrees of angle

middle - give or take 30-60 degrees of angle

side - give or take 60-90 degrees of angle

 

basically what that does is simple.. it tells the decoding processor if your listening position is against the wall, out away from the wall, or in really big rooms; near the center of the room.

 

you can bet your ass these adjustments calibrate the timing for the 'sweet spot' based on where your listening position is in the room (together with the distance settings).

 

not too difficult to grasp. read the article i linked for your foundation.

might as well start with the master's tools and work your way down to consumer products, right?

 

 

the only question is..

are the azimuth timings recorded from the microphones, or are they simulated with virtualizing software?

(eh, i guess another good question is.. are those timings recorded with single capsule microphones or multi-capsule sound-field microphones?)

 

thanks for your time, happy listening.

[wgscott]

I have no clue how virtual speakers work. This is the first I have ever heard of them.

[anwaypasible]

i made a virtual speaker once at my old apartment.