"Pace, Rhythm, & Dynamics" [Revisited]

[徐中銳]

For anyone who wishes to reassess the whole, or parts, of Martin Colloms' substantial Stereophile '92 write-up.

 

So, to begin, extracted from the beginning of Page 2 :

Definitions

The definitions of "pace," "rhythm," and "dynamics" inevitably involve such related aspects as drive, timing, involvement, flow, and coherence. "Pace," for example, connotes speed; indeed, the concepts "fast" or "slow" have often been applied to sound reproduction.

 

Pace: At the simplest level, pace is equivalent to tempo. While a listener may well have a good awareness of absolute tempo, there is a strong subjective element in the perception of the speed at which a musical work is performed. This is determined in part by what has come before. The same is true of the perceived velocity of a vehicle in which one is traveling. Exiting from a fast expressway, the transition to the lower speed seems surprisingly abrupt—one's judgment of speed has been dramatically affected by the preceding experience. The way a conductor and/or musicians vary the tempo strongly affects the perception of pace. This is done deliberately as an element of musical expression and interpretation, and is vital to good performances. It doesn't correlate strongly with measured elapsed time, a performance that sounds rushed sometimes taking longer than one which sounds better paced.

 

What many listeners fail to note is that weaknesses in the audio chain can give rise to errors which, in combination, suggest that the musical pace has become slower; the effect is one of impaired listener interest. (Other classifiable component errors also reduce the listener's interest in the reproduced music—impaired clarity, for example—but the scope of this essay is restricted to the perception of time.) When replay is rendered less interesting, pace suffers and time may indeed appear to go more slowly.

 

Timing: This relates specifically to...

Nowadays, how do you think « the audio industry » is currently measuring up to Colloms' :

The future

Rhythmic and dynamic qualities are fragile and easily diluted. They are precious yet vital aspects of the musical experience, and demand wider recognition and greater understanding. A stronger commitment is required from the audio industry as a whole to address their manifest deficiencies in this area.

[crenca]

I read something recently where a musician was saying that terms like "pace", "rhythm" are properly applied to a playing of an instrument and music, and did not really apply to reproduction per se. I have to say that sounds more right to me.

 

Also, it is my experience that the better the reproduction/audio chain, the experience of the music time wise is actually better described as slower, not faster. I believe this is because I am paying attention, hearing more detail, and the music in all its clarity and presence is better able to keep my attention and move me emotionally.

[r_w]

Agree with much of this as long as it gets your foot tapping a bit, sometimes systems can be so slow and smooth they become boring, it's a tricky balance. Aurender seem to have managed it well.

 

 

Also, it is my experience that the better the reproduction/audio chain, the experience of the music time wise is actually better described as slower, not faster. I believe this is because I am paying attention, hearing more detail, and the music in all its clarity and presence is better able to keep my attention and move me emotionally.

[semente]

As far as I know, "Pace Rhythm and Timing" are inherent qualities of Music.

A more "transparent" equipment/system will put them in evidence.

And some "colourations", such as floor-bounce (floor-induced upper-midbass/lower-midrange cancelation) also give an impression of "speed" and low frequency "crispness" or "tightness".

 

"Soundstage" and "3D-ness" are properties of the recording but can be enhanced by judicious use of room-boundary reflections (that create a form of ghosting such as that which we use to get on analog TV) or by manipulating phase.

 

Ric

[r_w]

They absolutely are... but I've had my tracks sound as much as 5bpm faster on some Naim equipment, it can get too in your face and become a negative attribute = fatiguing.

 

As far as I know, "Pace Rhythm and Timing" are inherent qualities of Music.

A more "transparent" equipment/system will put them in evidence.

 

Ric

[semente]

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - Vladimir Lenin

 

 

[r_w]

Who's telling lies?

 

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - Vladimir Lenin

 

 

[semente]

It's not really a lie...more of an illusion.

I was just pointing out that this (extra-)ordinary ability of Naim products to produce/create/generate "PRaT" has been elevated to mythomaniac proportions.

One day, someone threw this concept at Naim's back (and at Linn, if I am not mistaken) and it stuck there...for good.

Makes for a nice advertising motto.

 

Ric

[r_w]

Yes it is a bit odd and of course it is an illusion.

 

But it certainly existed in my experience, I used to be a thoroughbred 'Naimite' (all Naim front-end with active ATC 50s) but I have since found a nicer way to present music (Aurender N100 & Auralic Vega, feeding Jeff Rowand Capri S2 pre) and even back then I had all of the Naim gear modified (by James Henriot of Whest Audio) to give a more pleasant presentation. Only the ATCs remain from my original system (before ATC I had/tried NAP180, then 250 with Acoustic Energy AE1s... got rid of that within weeks in favour of ATC).

 

(I made all of these comparisons with my own music productions).

 

PRaT is an important factor in music replay but there are limits as to how prominent (never dominant) it should be.

 

:-)

 

It's not really a lie...more of an illusion.

I was just pointing out that this (extra-)ordinary ability of Naim products to produce/create/generate "PRaT" has been elevated to mythomaniac proportions.

One day, someone threw this concept at Naim's back (and at Linn, if I am not mistaken) and it stuck there...for good.

Makes for a nice advertising motto.

 

Ric

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yes it is a bit odd and of course it is an illusion.

 

But it certainly existed in my experience, I used to be a thoroughbred 'Naimite' (all Naim front-end with active ATC 50s) but I have since found a nicer way to present music (Aurender N100 & Auralic Vega, feeding Jeff Rowand Capri S2 pre) and even back then I had all of the Naim gear modified (by James Henriot of Whest Audio) to give a more pleasant presentation. Only the ATCs remain from my original system (before ATC I had/tried NAP180, then 250 with Acoustic Energy AE1s... got rid of that within weeks in favour of ATC).

 

(I made all of these comparisons with my own music productions).

 

PRaT is an important factor in music replay but there are limits as to how prominent (never dominant) it should be.

 

:-)

 

I think often when reviewers or marketers are talking about PRAT, also about bass "speed", "microrhythms", etc., what they are really talking about is smooth, clean, articulate, extended bass or the lack of it. Often, this is really about room modal issues, which if not addressed, cause muddiness, ringing, smearing, etc. or also bass cancellation at some frequencies. Some of those effects, though inaccurate, might even be pleasurable to some people with some music. Different speaker designs at the same or different positions may excite more or less of this. So, it might be more of a room issue than an equipment issue in many cases.

 

Particularly in pop, jazz, etc., it is the bass frequencies that primarily carry the rhythm line. I am not doubting that people hear a difference or that they have a preference for the way one setup handles these bass lines. But, I think PRAT and related buzzwords are just fanciful and inaccurate ways to describe something more fundamental about the bass response of a given system in a given room.

[Daudio]

I think PRAT and related buzzwords are just fanciful and inaccurate ways to describe something more fundamental about the bass response of a given system in a given room.

 

Interesting theory ! Ripe for a controlled test, against some of the other ideas I have seen about the 'source' of PRAT qualities.

[r_w]

Yes, agreed, that needs to be factored in. I've had experiences though with the same room and speakers, where just changing bits of the front-end has eased the flow and natural groove of the music.

 

I can't really explain what would cause an illusion of 'over speed' or 'timing dominance' but it does exist and probably not with just one brand's house style, probably another thing that's hard to measure and plot?

 

I think PRAT and related buzzwords are just fanciful and inaccurate ways to describe something more fundamental about the bass response of a given system in a given room.

[Allan F]

But, I think PRAT and related buzzwords are just fanciful and inaccurate ways to describe something more fundamental about the bass response of a given system in a given room.

 

With respect, I disagree. IMO, PRAT is an essential ingredient of lively music. And it involves far more than the bass response. Percussion is often the leading element, much the same as a drummer in a live band. However, any number of instruments, from acoustic guitars to saxophones, are capable of contributing to the rhythm and pace of the music. Irresistible foot tapping is not dependent on or even necessarily related to the bass response, although that may quite often be the case.

[r_w]

@Allan F,

 

Agreed, it's certainly wider than bass and room response, possibly emphasis of attack across all instruments, which can actually be achieved by compressing with slow attack.

 

For me, it's just that some systems seem to overplay PRaT to detriment... as in the best musicians are the ones who appear to not really be trying... music seems to just flow out of them without effort (those top musicians always have the best groove and feel), that's the only way I can think of describing the natural / musical element of PRaT that ideally you would aim for in audio replay.

 

;-)

[Musicophile]

I'm absolutely no expert, but my feeling is that PRaT has a lot to do with the "grip" the amp has on the speaker.

 

My B&Ws go down to 2.6 ohm so can suck a lot of current.

 

I've tried other amps with them and only when I put in my current Exposure who is very stable even with complex loads they really started to dance. And I think this control goes beyond bass, as it works even for classical and baroque, where bass is just not that important. It is more about speeds of attack and decay (so again control of the speaker membranes) in my limited layman's understanding.

 

By the way, Exposure, similar to Naim, are well known for their emphasis of PRaT in their components.

[4est]

I am of the impression that PRaT is the sum total settling characteristic (grip) of the entire chain. Along with low level detail retrieval at lower volumes, it is a sign of "complete" power transfer.

I'm absolutely no expert, but my feeling is that PRaT has a lot to do with the "grip" the amp has on the speaker.

[sandyk]

I am of the impression that PRaT is the sum total settling characteristic (grip) of the entire chain. Along with low level detail retrieval at lower volumes, it is a sign of "complete" power transfer.

 

+1

[realhifi]

I am of the impression that PRaT is the sum total settling characteristic (grip) of the entire chain. Along with low level detail retrieval at lower volumes, it is a sign of "complete" power transfer.

 

Sounds about right. Also its the ability of the electronics to simply get out of the way and let electricity do its thing.

 

The concept of amplification ACCELERATING rythym or "prat" seems to be quite a reach.

Much like the comments made about Nordost cables being TOO fast. Huh?

[r_w]

Yes, I too would be surprised if a cable alone could give the illusion of acceleration, but the phenomena exists with some kit (comparing original masters), the point is there is a presentational balance to be had...

 

I don't want my music 'fired at me from of a cannon'

 

;-)

[realhifi]

Yes, I too would be surprised if a cable alone could give the illusion of acceleration, but the phenomena exists with some kit (comparing original masters), the point is there is a presentational balance to be had...

 

I don't want my music 'fired at me from of a cannon'

 

;-)

 

Certainly understand variations in presentation between amplifying electronics but the idea that it can SPEED UP the rhythm I find a bit hard to understand. With a mechanical source I get it. A turntable, CD player, hard drive disc, etc could all actually speed up the music.

[Teresa]

…IMO, PRAT is an essential ingredient of lively music. And it involves far more than the bass response. Percussion is often the leading element, much the same as a drummer in a live band. However, any number of instruments, from acoustic guitars to saxophones, are capable of contributing to the rhythm and pace of the music. Irresistible foot tapping is not dependent on or even necessarily related to the bass response, although that may quite often be the case.

 

I agree.

 

…The concept of amplification ACCELERATING rythym or "prat" seems to be quite a reach….

 

There is a specification to explain faster, tighter bass with a power amplifier, its called damping factor. An amp with a high damping factor has better woofer control.

 

Also, large woofers are sometimes slow to sluggish, while smaller woofers are often faster as they respond to the music signal quicker. This is why many speaker designs use two 8 or 10 inch woofers instead of a single 12 or 15 inch woofer.

[realhifi]

M

I agree.

 

 

 

There is a specification to explain faster, tighter bass with a power amplifier, its called damping factor. An amp with a high damping factor has better woofer control.

 

Also, large woofers are sometimes slow to sluggish, while smaller woofers are often faster as they respond to the music signal quicker. This is why many speaker designs use two 8 or 10 inch woofers instead of a single 12 or 15 inch woofer.

 

Yep, I get all that. But what you are explaining is not actually speeding up the music as much as getting it correct. Forgive me if I'm missing something on having an amplifier respond faster (or more correctly truer) to the original source NOT actually speeding the music or rythym FASTER than it actually was recorded. Thats where im stuck on this is that some actually have said that it has made the rythyms FASTER and therefore incorrect. Thats just not how it is. To berate a company for making things sound "faster" sounds a bit off as all they are doing is trying to reproduce the music better.

[Daudio]

having an amplifier respond faster (or more correctly truer) to the original source NOT actually speeding the music or rythym FASTER than it actually was recorded. Thats where im stuck on this is that some actually have said that it has made the rythyms FASTER and therefore incorrect.

 

I wouldn't take that too literally. Audiophiles have long struggled to describe what they hear, going to bizarre lengths to try and do so ( remember the uproar over "chocolate" ?). I would put that 'Faster PRAT' in that category

[Allan F]

Forgive me if I'm missing something on having an amplifier respond faster (or more correctly truer) to the original source NOT actually speeding the music or rythym FASTER than it actually was recorded. Thats where im stuck on this is that some actually have said that it has made the rythyms FASTER and therefore incorrect.

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that certain amplifiers may cause the rhythm to appear to be faster than others. For example, if an amplifier tends to emphasize the leading edge of transients but also tends to shorten decay time, it may appear to sound faster to the listener. Relatively speaking, of course.

[r_w]

Yes that's the one, and that's exactly what I've been saying all along hence using italics sounds faster.

 

This phenomena / illusion (call it what you want) exists beyond doubt.

 

Some like rhythm to dominate, some prefer it to be in balance.

 

It isn't ever going to be better or more accurate to me if it sounds faster than my master.

 

Beautiful, effortless music replay in balance is my goal, 'transient assault' isn't, just like it is with the performances of top end musicians.

 

;-)

 

 

QUOTE=Allan F;474866]Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that certain amplifiers may cause the rhythm to appear to be faster than others. For example, if an amplifier tends to emphasize the leading edge of transients but also tends to shorten decay time, it may appear to sound faster to the listener. Relatively speaking, of course.