Emotiva DC-1 + Crown XLS1500 (x2) + Bi-Amp'd B&W 685 S2 ???

[Gary.D.Olson]

Hello all.

 

I was all-vintage until recently purchasing a pair of B&W 685's. Seriously. I hadn't purchased new speakers since Ronald Reagan was in the White House. The difference between the B&W's ($700) and my JBL L20T's ($902 inflation adjusted) was an eye opening experience which convinced me to embrace 21st century audio electronics. Since CA is modern audio's premier community, I humbly ask its members (you) for input & opinions.

 

I'm leaning toward this bang-for-the-buck system ("*" = already own):

 

*Win7 netBook with *JRMC/*FLAC on internal hdd (connected via *Audioquest Forrest USB to...)

Emotiva DC-1 as both DAC and preamp (connected via XLR to...)

Crown XLS1500 power amps (x2, connected via Blue Jeans speaker cable to...)

*B&W 685 S2 speakers (bi-amp'd)

 

I haven't yet worked out how or if 2 stereo power amps can be connected to the DC-1, but the more immediate question is whether or not one can expect audiophile results with just $900 for a DAC, preamplifer and 2 power amplifiers in the year two thousand and fifteen.

 

Much obliged.

 

 

Gary

[speavler]

the crown amp has a fan. do you know how loud it is? I have Behringer pro amp to power my home theater sub, and its stock fan was quite loud. I could hear it even though it was closed inside an AV closet. Had to swap to a lower rpm quiet fan

[crenca]

I would be interested in what are the consequences (if any) of putting more than 3 times the rated watts into a speaker (as Gary wants to do here - if I am reading the specs on the crowns right). Perhaps someone can speak to this.

[Gary.D.Olson]

the crown amp has a fan. do you know how loud it is? I have Behringer pro amp to power my home theater sub, and its stock fan was quite loud. I could hear it even though it was closed inside an AV closet. Had to swap to a lower rpm quiet fan

 

Coming from a background or pro music, I'd always ruled out pro amps due to that reason. Suddenly I'm hearing great things about these amps, and tons of people are using them in the context of 2-channel home systems. But you're right, I'll have to be prepared to swap fans if needed.

 

Thanks.

[Gary.D.Olson]

I would be interested in what are the consequences (if any) of putting more than 3 times the rated watts into a speaker (as Gary wants to do here - if I am reading the specs on the crowns right). Perhaps someone can speak to this.

 

This, I can tell you: robust performance is the result. Assuming these amps live up to their specs, my speakers will never see a square wave due to the amp.

[Audio_ELF]

I would be interested in what are the consequences (if any) of putting more than 3 times the rated watts into a speaker (as Gary wants to do here - if I am reading the specs on the crowns right). Perhaps someone can speak to this.

There's no issue with putting too much power into a speaker so long as you're careful. In fact it's often said you are more likely to damage a speaker will an underpowered amp than an over powered one (due to clipping).

 

Just be careful with the volume control!

[bluesman]

I would be interested in what are the consequences (if any) of putting more than 3 times the rated watts into a speaker.

Few and uncommon. Speakers are damaged far more often from too little power than too much - trying to get higher SPLs than can be generated cleanly within the operating parameters of the amplification (e.g. rated output power and distortion) results in output clipping with its odd order harmonics, and that overheats and damages drivers. Many better crossovers are fused or otherwise protected against overdriving. This lesson is learned painfully by young guitarists who embark on a gigging career with an amp that's too small for pro use, and I was one of them. Fortunately, the cone and coil in my Ampeg Reverberocket decided to part ways during the last tune of the night, rather than the first. It was the summer of 1962 and I was on stage at a WMID record hop & concert at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall fronting a 4 piece rock band whose average age was 16. Within the week, I replaced that little baby with a 100W Magnatone. Since then, I've used everything from a 100W Mesa Boogie to Crown & Alesis power amps into standard guitar cabs, and I've never blown a speaker since that first one.

 

Overdriving a speaker can blow it to pieces for sure, but you'll probably hear the knocking of the woofer's or midrange driver's voice coil at the end of its travel and throttle back, if it's a traditional driver. If you do knock the coil too hard with excessive input power, you can cause it to commit wire-icide from overheating. You can physically rip the coil from the cone or cause other such mechanical disruptions. But most of us have the restraint to turn it down when that knocking starts (and it's VERRRY scary the first time you hear it). I drove my Rogers LS3/5As with a Hafler 500 for several years with no problems other than the very infrequent clunk of the B110 expressing its concern over my hearing......

[Forehaven]

I've been using the 1500 mono's for sev. weeks now. It's been a great upgrade from Bryston 7B ST mono's. Huge improvement and some of the best sound I've had. Huge soundstage ht/w/and a very notable ss depth. Same with resolution. Very clean.

Plus, you can save some cash on the 1500 as the 1502 is coming out.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Few and uncommon. Speakers are damaged far more often from too little power than too much - trying to get higher SPLs than can be generated cleanly within the operating parameters of the amplification (e.g. rated output power and distortion) results in output clipping with its odd order harmonics, and that overheats and damages drivers. Many better crossovers are fused or otherwise protected against overdriving. This lesson is learned painfully by young guitarists who embark on a gigging career with an amp that's too small for pro use, and I was one of them. Fortunately, the cone and coil in my Ampeg Reverberocket decided to part ways during the last tune of the night, rather than the first. It was the summer of 1962 and I was on stage at a WMID record hop & concert at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall fronting a 4 piece rock band whose average age was 16. Within the week, I replaced that little baby with a 100W Magnatone. Since then, I've used everything from a 100W Mesa Boogie to Crown & Alesis power amps into standard guitar cabs, and I've never blown a speaker since that first one.

 

Overdriving a speaker can blow it to pieces for sure, but you'll probably hear the knocking of the woofer's or midrange driver's voice coil at the end of its travel and throttle back, if it's a traditional driver. If you do knock the coil too hard with excessive input power, you can cause it to commit wire-icide from overheating. You can physically rip the coil from the cone or cause other such mechanical disruptions. But most of us have the restraint to turn it down when that knocking starts (and it's VERRRY scary the first time you hear it). I drove my Rogers LS3/5As with a Hafler 500 for several years with no problems other than the very infrequent clunk of the B110 expressing its concern over my hearing......

 

 

Bluesman,

 

Do you still have your Emotiva DC-1? If so, how do you feel about its performance as a DAC as well as preamp performance after a year of use?

[bluesman]

Bluesman,

 

Do you still have your Emotiva DC-1? If so, how do you feel about its performance as a DAC as well as preamp performance after a year of use?

I love it! It's in my "main" system driving the Prima Luna amp to the latest Focal 726 towers. I plug my AKG701s directly into the DC-1. My phono stage is a Parasound.

 

Unlike some here, I do believe that it's more discriminating in its work than many others and is actually revealing more about the source material than DACs that make most recordings sound the same (even if that's pleasing). It may not be SOTA, but it's mighty fine and I'd replace it immediately if it disappeared today (e.g. into my son's system.......)

 

David

[Gary.D.Olson]

I love it! It's in my "main" system driving the Prima Luna amp to the latest Focal 726 towers. I plug my AKG701s directly into the DC-1. My phono stage is a Parasound.

 

Unlike some here, I do believe that it's more discriminating in its work than many others and is actually revealing more about the source material than DACs that make most recordings sound the same (even if that's pleasing). It may not be SOTA, but it's mighty fine and I'd replace it immediately if it disappeared today (e.g. into my son's system.......)

 

David

 

 

Thanks for the response. I'm completely sold on the DC-1. The same isn't true of my B&W 685 S2's. This morning, I compared them with our big Canton CT-800's. It was the first and only comparison. When it comes to taking up less space and looking newer, the B&W's were the clear winner. The Canton's killed them in every other way, and are now the speakers that will be paired with the DC-1 & Crown power amp, while the B&W's are headed for my office.

 

Thanks again.

[gmgraves]

Hello all.

 

I was all-vintage until recently purchasing a pair of B&W 685's. Seriously. I hadn't purchased new speakers since Ronald Reagan was in the White House. The difference between the B&W's ($700) and my JBL L20T's ($902 inflation adjusted) was an eye opening experience which convinced me to embrace 21st century audio electronics. Since CA is modern audio's premier community, I humbly ask its members (you) for input & opinions.

 

I'm leaning toward this bang-for-the-buck system ("*" = already own):

 

*Win7 netBook with *JRMC/*FLAC on internal hdd (connected via *Audioquest Forrest USB to...)

Emotiva DC-1 as both DAC and preamp (connected via XLR to...)

Crown XLS1500 power amps (x2, connected via Blue Jeans speaker cable to...)

*B&W 685 S2 speakers (bi-amp'd)

 

I haven't yet worked out how or if 2 stereo power amps can be connected to the DC-1, but the more immediate question is whether or not one can expect audiophile results with just $900 for a DAC, preamplifer and 2 power amplifiers in the year two thousand and fifteen.

 

Much obliged.

 

 

Gary

 

 

I think you would find that almost any speaker would sound better than those JBLs. I can't speak to today's models, because I haven't heard JBLs in many years, but the ones they sold in the 1970's and 80's were TERRIBLE. The really sad part is that almost all recording studios standardized on JBL monitor speakers in that era. They tended to sound spectacular with R&R, but were unbelievably bad with any other kind of music (especially with acoustical - as opposed to electronic, instruments). One of the reasons, I guess, why recordings made in that era, overall, tend to sound so poor. I'm guessing, here of course, but if the speakers that you are mixing a recording on sound bad due to frequency response aberrations (which the JBL monitors certainly had), then the resultant release will only sound good when played back on those identical model speakers.

 

The Crown amps should be pretty good performers. There isn't a lot of difference between today's music reinforcement amplifiers and todays mid-fi to low-high-end amps (I know, I know!). But SR amps are generally made to be very robust due to the type of service they see (thrown in the back of trucks, dropped by indifferent stevedores, misconnected by stoned roadies, etc.). However, today's mid-fi amps perform like yesterday's high-end stuff, so that's not too shabby. The difference between the current Crown line of amps and amps by solid high-end manufacturers like Classe and Parasound, and Bryston, etc., is in subtlety. These more expensive amps might sound more "refined" (and then again, maybe not). But what you will have is plenty of good, clean, reliable power.

 

To connect your DC-1 to the Crown Amps via balanced XLRs You're gonna need a couple of XLR "Y" adapters. Basically a single XLR female (to mate with the XLR male outputs on the back of the DC-1) that terminate into two in-line XLR males. I don't know what you are doing about crossovers, but since you didn't ask, I won't comment. If you don't like the idea of the "Y" connectors, use balanced for one of the crown amps and go unbalanced for the other.

 

Don't worry about the amps' power with respect to the speakers. Speakers are rarely damaged (in a domestic setting) by too much power. To little is far more likely to damage your speakers (by clipping).

 

Also, you should get better imaging if you split your two Crowns left-to-right rather than tweeter to woofer. In other words. use one amp connected to the left speaker with one channel for the highs and the other for the lows and the other amp connected to the right speaker in the same fashion, rather that use one amp for the lows and the other for the highs.

 

Which ever method you choose, it doesn't really matter where you split the balanced cables, at the DC-1 end or the Crown amp end. If the latter, you only need one long XLR if the former, you'll need two.

 

One last thing. Someone else brought this up and it is important. Go to a Guitar Showcase or similar store and try to hear the Crown amps before buying them. I don't mean necessarily listen to music through them, but try to gauge the loudness of the fan motors in the amps. If that requires that you listen to music with the amps in the same room, then do that. But make sure the fans can't be heard when music is playing at any level at which you are likely to listen.

 

 

I hope this helps.

[Gary.D.Olson]

I think you would find that almost any speaker would sound better than those JBLs. I can't speak to today's models, because I haven't heard JBLs in many years, but the ones they sold in the 1970's and 80's were TERRIBLE. The really sad part is that almost all recording studios standardized on JBL monitor speakers in that era. They tended to sound spectacular with R&R, but were unbelievably bad with any other kind of music (especially with acoustical - as opposed to electronic, instruments). One of the reasons, I guess, why recordings made in that era, overall, tend to sound so poor. I'm guessing, here of course, but if the speakers that you are mixing a recording on sound bad due to frequency response aberrations (which the JBL monitors certainly had), then the resultant release will only sound good when played back on those identical model speakers.

 

George,

 

I greatly respect your thoughts and sincerely appreciate your response:)

 

We're 100% in agreement that JBL leans rather aggressively toward R&R (ala - gulp! - Klipsch). However, their studio monitors have always been on an entirely different level from their consumer products. If not, I would have to wonder why so many studio owners would choose their most critical piece of hardware with such a lack of discrimination. I'd also have to wonder how such FR anomalies could get past the mastering lab prior LP/CD release. On the other hand, I've never heard anything but R&R in recording studios, so I too am guessing, and perhaps with a little too much faith mixed in.

 

 

The Crown amps should be pretty good performers. There isn't a lot of difference between today's music reinforcement amplifiers and todays mid-fi to low-high-end amps (I know, I know!). But SR amps are generally made to be very robust due to the type of service they see (thrown in the back of trucks, dropped by indifferent stevedores, misconnected by stoned roadies, etc.). However, today's mid-fi amps perform like yesterday's high-end stuff, so that's not too shabby. The difference between the current Crown line of amps and amps by solid high-end manufacturers like Classe and Parasound, and Bryston, etc., is in subtlety. These more expensive amps might sound more "refined" (and then again, maybe not). But what you will have is plenty of good, clean, reliable power.

 

 

Yes, I believe Crown has a separate facility for testing equipment against stoned roadies. I imagine that would be an interesting gig.

 

Between a low budget and these old ears, I belong with today's mid-fi, and that's okay. In 1971, when I started this hobby at the age of 10, stereo shops were everywhere. I guess that's why many say the 1970's was The Golden Age of Hi-Fi. I disagree. Great sounding gear has never been so affordable and there's an endless supply of used gear everywhere. Yesterday, I heard the best sound from any audio system I've ever owned. In fact, it was so good, I'm hesitant to change a thing. The entire system (bellow) came at a grand total out-the-door cost of $1105! I believe this is right for me, though I will audition the Emotiva DC-1 in this system as DAC and preamp.

 

$270 netBook

$50 JRiver MC

$40 Audioquest Forrest USB cable

$165 Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC

$40 Audioquest Forrest RCA cable

$270 Luxman R-117 receiver (1988 top-of-the-line 160wpc rms)

$40 generic but decent 14 awg speaker cable

$250 Canton CT-800 speakers (1980's 3-way with 10" woofers)

 

 

 

Also, you should get better imaging if you split your two Crowns left-to-right rather than tweeter to woofer. In other words. use one amp connected to the left speaker with one channel for the highs and the other for the lows and the other amp connected to the right speaker in the same fashion, rather that use one amp for the lows and the other for the highs.

 

Which ever method you choose, it doesn't really matter where you split the balanced cables, at the DC-1 end or the Crown amp end. If the latter, you only need one long XLR if the former, you'll need two.

 

One last thing. Someone else brought this up and it is important. Go to a Guitar Showcase or similar store and try to hear the Crown amps before buying them. I don't mean necessarily listen to music through them, but try to gauge the loudness of the fan motors in the amps. If that requires that you listen to music with the amps in the same room, then do that. But make sure the fans can't be heard when music is playing at any level at which you are likely to listen.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thanks for the wiring & amp configuration advice! Using separate amps for each speaker cabinet as opposed to one amp for the woofers and the other for the tweeters makes a lot of sense. Without it, I undoubtedly would have taken the latter route. Plus, since each amp is powering the full frequency range, your configuration would result in a much more even load.

 

Have a great Sunday.

 

 

Gary

[Audio_ELF]

Yes, I believe Crown has a separate facility for testing equipment against stoned roadies. I imagine that would be an interesting gig.

Modern roadies don't know they've been born what with class D amplification and SMPS... :-)

 

Thanks for the wiring & amp configuration advice! Using separate amps for each speaker cabinet as opposed to one amp for the woofers and the other for the tweeters makes a lot of sense. Without it, I undoubtedly would have taken the latter route. Plus, since each amp is powering the full frequency range, your configuration would result in a much more even load.

Do the XLS1500 not have some form of mono/biamp mode so you just need a single connection to an amplifier chassis to provide signal to both channels?

[Gary.D.Olson]

Modern roadies don't know they've been born what with class D amplification and SMPS... :-)

 

 

Do the XLS1500 not have some form of mono/biamp mode so you just need a single connection to an amplifier chassis to provide signal to both channels?

 

Eloise,

 

 

I'll bet you're a lot of fun at parties.

 

All seriousness aside; since it looks like the sound I've been chasing was right right under my nose with my Luxman/Canton combo, I think this thread can be considered solved... save the DAC issue. Even there, I'm convinced the DC-1 will be a wonderful upgrade to keep the audiophile itch in the scratched position for some time. I'm particularly interested in possible improvements by connecting the DC-1 to the Luxman's Main In. Several owners have commented about the R-117's fabulous power amplifier mated with a mediocre preamp.

 

 

Happy Sunday!

[gmgraves]

George,

 

I greatly respect your thoughts and sincerely appreciate your response:)

 

We're 100% in agreement that JBL leans rather aggressively toward R&R (ala - gulp! - Klipsch). However, their studio monitors have always been on an entirely different level from their consumer products. If not, I would have to wonder why so many studio owners would choose their most critical piece of hardware with such a lack of discrimination. I'd also have to wonder how such FR anomalies could get past the mastering lab prior LP/CD release. On the other hand, I've never heard anything but R&R in recording studios, so I too am guessing, and perhaps with a little too much faith mixed in.

 

I spent a lot of time in recording studios in the 1970's and early eighties. In studios primarily doing music production, the overwhelming choice of monitor speakers were the JBL 4310. Not all studios used them, mind you, but most did, and all that I saw had a pair somewhere on premisses. The reason was because it was not unusual for the band to be laid-down in, say, Nashville, and the tape then shipped to LA where the vocal was added. It was important for the playback to sound the same in both locations; hence the standardization of monitors. Before the era of multitrack most studios had custom monitor speakers, and most of them weren't what you and I would want to listen to our music on. For Instance, Wally Heider Studios used Weslake Monitors which were huge multicellular horn behemoths that produced surprisingly little bass for their size and a resonance at roughly 700 Hz that made them sound like a klaxon! RCA's studios in Nashville and New York were made for them by RCA Labs and were called the LC9A. They were large folded horn monitors (again) and didn't sound too bad, but by the time I heard them, they were (as a design) getting pretty long in the tooth because they were designed by Harry Olsen in 1940's.

 

Yes, I believe Crown has a separate facility for testing equipment against stoned roadies. I imagine that would be an interesting gig.

 

Between a low budget and these old ears, I belong with today's mid-fi, and that's okay. In 1971, when I started this hobby at the age of 10, stereo shops were everywhere. I guess that's why many say the 1970's was The Golden Age of Hi-Fi. I disagree. Great sounding gear has never been so affordable and there's an endless supply of used gear everywhere. Yesterday, I heard the best sound from any audio system I've ever owned. In fact, it was so good, I'm hesitant to change a thing. The entire system (bellow) came at a grand total out-the-door cost of $1105! I believe this is right for me, though I will audition the Emotiva DC-1 in this system as DAC and preamp.

 

$270 netBook

$50 JRiver MC

$40 Audioquest Forrest USB cable

$165 Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC

$40 Audioquest Forrest RCA cable

$270 Luxman R-117 receiver (1988 top-of-the-line 160wpc rms)

$40 generic but decent 14 awg speaker cable

$250 Canton CT-800 speakers (1980's 3-way with 10" woofers)

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the wiring & amp configuration advice! Using separate amps for each speaker cabinet as opposed to one amp for the woofers and the other for the tweeters makes a lot of sense. Without it, I undoubtedly would have taken the latter route. Plus, since each amp is powering the full frequency range, your configuration would result in a much more even load.

 

Have a great Sunday.

 

 

Gary

 

You have a great Sunday as well!

[Gary.D.Olson]

Yesterday, I heard the best sound from any audio system I've ever owned. In fact, it was so good, I'm hesitant to change a thing. The entire system (bellow) came at a grand total out-the-door cost of $1105! I believe this is right for me, though I will audition the Emotiva DC-1 in this system as DAC and preamp.

 

$270 netBook

$50 JRiver MC

$40 Audioquest Forrest USB cable

$165 Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC

$40 Audioquest Forrest RCA cable

$270 Luxman R-117 receiver (1988 top-of-the-line 160wpc rms)

$40 generic but decent 14 awg speaker cable

$250 Canton CT-800 speakers (1980's 3-way with 10" woofers)

 

 

Oops. I failed to mention the above "best sounding system" is comprised of gear I already own, so the immediate cost is $0.00 and that includes shipping and setup:)

[Panelhead]

Hello all.

 

 

 

I'm leaning toward

Crown XLS1500 power amps (x2, connected via Blue Jeans speaker cable to...)

 

Much obliged.

 

 

Gary

 

I had to look up the Crown XLS 1500 after this review. Seems to be a giant killer, or at least punch way above it's weight.

Also looked up the new Crown XLS 1502. Looks like same amp with improved cosmetics. For almost twice the price as the discounted 1500.

Telling myself I need to try switching amps again. Owned a few 10 years ago. I am sure they have improved.