Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[Iain]

Hi,

I hope Software is the correct place for this question as I want to build a PC to run the combo of HQ Player and ROON. Software drives the hardware, right?

I want to upgrade my Server so it can easily handle the upcoming ROON/HQ Player combination. I have an Audio PC (i7, lpsu, fanless, etc) which connects my Big7 DAC via jPlay. I believe I'm in great shape there.

 

Right now I'm using an AMD Athalon PC as my control PC in jPlay streamer mode. I once used it just as a server with my music files, but when jPlay streamer became available I had to try it. Better sound. Then I decided to try jplay dual PC mode and use it as my control PC as well. Again much better sound then before.

 

Software Used on both Audio and Control PC: jRiver, Windows Server 2012 v2, jPlay, AudiophileOptimizer, Fidelizer 6, dbpoweramp, etc.

 

Future Software: Windows 10?, ROON, HQ Player

 

Its time to update the Server/Control PC.

In place now: Seasonic Fanless power supply, Corsair ATX Tower,

 

CPU: Xeon or i7? Which one? Which model? Needs to be less than 95 watts.

MOBO?

RAM: 16Gb What brand and type? Is ECC needed?

SSD: Samsung 850 Pro?

 

Or maybe I'd be better off buying a CAPS Pipeline to use as a control PC? Thus keeping the server separate from the audio and control PC?

 

Thanks for your informed suggestions.

 

I would have a go at this machine:

Tecra W50-A-115 - Toshiba

 

... as I'm a minimalist, and believe that good things come in small packages.

 

I've had this machine since early December 2014, and firmly believe it will competently handle anything anyone here will toss at it. It's attached to a 61 cm. external HD display via HDMI.

 

I couldn't live without the eSATA III port.

 

Read the system specifications, and you'll see what I mean.

[frederick184]

These are my current ingredients for Win10 machine:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22971[/ATTACH]

 

Current CPU is i5-6600T, but I may later change it to i7-6700T or 6700K when it becomes reasonably available. RAM is 32 GB of Kingston DDR4-2133 Fury HyperX (CL14) (4x DIMMs). NVIDIA Quadro M4000 graphics card for offloading is coming later.

 

What model number is the Samsung 850 Pro SSD in your picture? I planned on purchasing the Gigabyte Z170X-UD5TH mobo, and I wasn't sure which version was suitable.

 

Thanks

Colin

[Miska]

What model number is the Samsung 850 Pro SSD in your picture?

 

Not sure, but I think it is MZ-7KE512BW

 

I planned on purchasing the Gigabyte Z170X-UD5TH mobo, and I wasn't sure which version was suitable.

 

Not sure what you are asking, the SSD is normal 2.5" 512 GB SATA device, so nothing much to worry in terms of compatibility (except TRIM functionality maybe). But if you are thinking about M.2 cards, then I'm not sure, there are some documents:

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/Document/mb_m.2_support_100series.pdf

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/SSD/mb_ssd_support_100series.pdf

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/Document/mb_sata_express_100.pdf

[frederick184]

Not sure, but I think it is MZ-7KE512BW

 

 

 

Not sure what you are asking, the SSD is normal 2.5" 512 GB SATA device, so nothing much to worry in terms of compatibility (except TRIM functionality maybe). But if you are thinking about M.2 cards, then I'm not sure, there are some documents:

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/Document/mb_m.2_support_100series.pdf

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/SSD/mb_ssd_support_100series.pdf

http://download.gigabyte.eu/FileList/Document/mb_sata_express_100.pdf

 

Thank you, much appreciated. No M.2 cards, but there were a couple of different part numbers on the site I was looking at, and I just wanted to be sure. Parts ordered today for upgraded PC.

 

Colin

[sfox7076]

If Roon comes out with RoonServer on Linux, would it make sense to build a RoonServer/HQPlayer box? Can HQPlayer be run without a GUI on ArchLinux?

[Miska]

If Roon comes out with RoonServer on Linux, would it make sense to build a RoonServer/HQPlayer box? Can HQPlayer be run without a GUI on ArchLinux?

 

HQPlayer Desktop has GUI always and cannot be run without it.

 

HQPlayer Embedded doesn't have any GUI, but it has different control API (MPRIS) and is usually used together with Rygel to implement a UPnP Media Renderer. If RoonServer Linux version would utilize this API, it would be possible to use the two together.

 

Currently supported OS for HQPlayer Embedded are Ubuntu LTS and Debian Stretch.

[frederick184]

These are my current ingredients for Win10 machine:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22971[/ATTACH]

 

Current CPU is i5-6600T, but I may later change it to i7-6700T or 6700K when it becomes reasonably available. RAM is 32 GB of Kingston DDR4-2133 Fury HyperX (CL14) (4x DIMMs). NVIDIA Quadro M4000 graphics card for offloading is coming later.

 

Just built a PC to this spec last weekend. Fantastic. The OS is Win 10,and all I have on the PC is Roon and HQ Player. Works all the way to 256 and 512 without breaking a sweat. This PC is connected via fiber to my CAPS 2 server, running Win Server 2012 with AO and an NAA, which is then connected to my DAC.

 

Colin

[cjf]

Ok,

 

I'm interested but I've gotta ask the question and hopefully this isn't taken the wrong way. Where's all the documentation for getting this seemingly great audio program up and running?

 

I see a VERY short "quick start guide" on the website which covers the bare bones usage of the HQ Player program but is there any guides available on the 100+ steps that are needed to take place before one attempts to use the HQ Player software? Something that covers how one gets to that point?

 

I can't help but wonder why the creator would want to limit themselves to such a small audience of Users of this seemingly great program due to the lack of even basic documentation required to make it all work.

 

If it were me, and after seeing all the buzz about it I would drop everything in my hands and spend whatever time was required to put something together that a person capable of reading and following directions could follow to get this program up and running. I'm sure the increased sales afterwards would more than account for the time needed to create something.

 

What am I missing here?

[Elberoth]

Ok,

 

I'm interested but I've gotta ask the question and hopefully this isn't taken the wrong way. Where's all the documentation for getting this seemingly great audio program up and running?

 

I see a VERY short "quick start guide" on the website which covers the bare bones usage of the HQ Player program but is there any guides available on the 100+ steps that are needed to take place before one attempts to use the HQ Player software? Something that covers how one gets to that point?

 

I can't help but wonder why the creator would want to limit themselves to such a small audience of Users of this seemingly great program due to the lack of even basic documentation required to make it all work.

 

If it were me, and after seeing all the buzz about it I would drop everything in my hands and spend whatever time was required to put something together that a person capable of reading and following directions could follow to get this program up and running. I'm sure the increased sales afterwards would more than account for the time needed to create something.

 

What am I missing here?

 

+1

[Miska]

I see a VERY short "quick start guide" on the website which covers the bare bones usage of the HQ Player program but is there any guides available on the 100+ steps that are needed to take place before one attempts to use the HQ Player software? Something that covers how one gets to that point?

 

I'm not really sure at what detail level the documentation should be? There's manual PDF and the quick start guide from my side. But this assumes that one knows how to install an application on the platform they use so that they get the application started. Once it is running, the various aspects are explained in the manual.

 

Geoff of Sound Galleries has written a nice HQPlayer Kick-Start Guide, would that better answer to what you are looking for?

HQPlayer | soundgalleries

[Samuel T Cogley]

***deleted***

[cjf]

I'm not really sure at what detail level the documentation should be? There's manual PDF and the quick start guide from my side. But this assumes that one knows how to install an application on the platform they use so that they get the application started. Once it is running, the various aspects are explained in the manual.

 

Geoff of Sound Galleries has written a nice HQPlayer Kick-Start Guide, would that better answer to what you are looking for?

HQPlayer | soundgalleries

 

Hello Miska,

 

In terms of what kind of detail I think the documentation for HQ Player should have (IMO) it would be something similar to what is found in the link below:

 

Using VMware Workstation Pro:

http://pubs.vmware.com/workstation-12/topic/com.vmware.ICbase/PDF/workstation-pro-12-user-guide.pdf

 

Granted, I wouldn't expect 230+ pages in the case of HQ Player but if the same format was followed as seen in the .pdf but the content was substituted for HQ Player content I think we would be off and running.

 

As you may notice, this program gets installed on top of an existing operating system very much like HQ Player does. In this example, the vendor goes into detail on what the software is, how it may be used and provides various examples of that, details on Software PreReqs, Hardware PreReqs..etc..etc. Then, they talk about how the software is installed, in detail, for the various deployment scenarios that are available.

 

Being an IT guy, I read,refer to and rely on vendor supplied white papers and install guides everyday for the applications and hardware they have sold to me. I don’t know of many successful software/hardware suppliers/vendors these days who offer their product without detailed documentation on how it should be implemented.

 

As an added bonus to documentation similar to above, I think it would be great to have someone like yourself provide what you would consider "The Ideal Build", in detail, for a Linux based system and a Windows based system using the HQ Player product. This could be a sort of template used by potential customers to follow either exactly or using equivalent hardware.

 

Thanks

[Samuel T Cogley]

Miska is one person. It's just not fair to point to documentation made by a multinational corporation (VMware/EMC) who no doubt have people on the payroll who only write technical manuals as the way Miska should be doing it.

 

I'm in IT too. The era of huge multinationals making audio software (Apple comes to mind) is over. All the fun, bleeding edge stuff will be made by enthusiasts/hobbyists/whatever.

 

Personally, I would like to understand better how the poly-sinc filters work, but not if it means that Miska would have to reveal his own "trade secret" information. I would also like a place that I can just send my money and they send me Signalyst DSC1 in a case ready to do.

 

But in the absence of those things, I'm content with how HQPlayer works for me and mostly how it sounds.

[Miska]

In terms of what kind of detail I think the documentation for HQ Player should have (IMO) it would be something similar to what is found in the link below

 

I would love to have such manual for Windows 10, Apple products and Android devices. But there's nothing at all!

 

Granted, I wouldn't expect 230+ pages in the case of HQ Player but if the same format was followed as seen in the .pdf but the content was substituted for HQ Player content I think we would be off and running.

 

The manual is at the moment 38 pages. I'm trying to improve it on areas where I perceive need for improvements. Do you have some example of manual for some other competing music player application that you consider good, and what are the things in it that are good which my manual is lacking?

 

It is also not unusual for people to ignore manuals completely, and for 230+ pages it easily turns into mode "too long - didn't read".

 

As an added bonus to documentation similar to above, I think it would be great to have someone like yourself provide what you would consider "The Ideal Build", in detail, for a Linux based system and a Windows based system using the HQ Player product.

 

There is no such thing as ideal system for everyone, there are so different needs. Someone wants to run 4-way digital cross-overs with digital room correction and DSD256 upsampling, while someone else just needs upsampling to 192 kHz stereo PCM. And my hope is that people could use the computers they already have.

 

Another problem is that hardware is constantly developing and changing, I don't have time to keep such hardware recipes fresh. On this thread I just posted what I selected for my new Win10 desktop that I needed and I'm happy with that machine.

[4est]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think you are not looking at the full manual, but only the quick start guide. Included in your download was a PDF manual. It should still be in the HQPlayer folder on your machine.

Ok,

 

I'm interested but I've gotta ask the question and hopefully this isn't taken the wrong way. Where's all the documentation for getting this seemingly great audio program up and running?

 

I see a VERY short "quick start guide" on the website which covers the bare bones usage of the HQ Player program but is there any guides available on the 100+ steps that are needed to take place before one attempts to use the HQ Player software? Something that covers how one gets to that point?

 

I can't help but wonder why the creator would want to limit themselves to such a small audience of Users of this seemingly great program due to the lack of even basic documentation required to make it all work.

 

If it were me, and after seeing all the buzz about it I would drop everything in my hands and spend whatever time was required to put something together that a person capable of reading and following directions could follow to get this program up and running. I'm sure the increased sales afterwards would more than account for the time needed to create something.

 

What am I missing here?

[cjf]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think you are not looking at the full manual, but only the quick start guide. Included in your download was a PDF manual. It should still be in the HQPlayer folder on your machine.

 

Hello, I wish that were the case but I have indeed read the full manual and while it is great for the usage of the application itself it misses the critical information needed BEFORE the application is installed.

 

Look, any monkey can fumble their way thru the use of the application but if they don't have any info about installing the application and on what type of hardware needed to make the application run than the software itself is a paperweight.

 

I get that the the HQ player is installed on a heavy lifting primary desktop but there is nothing that talks about the NAA hardware or what to do in terms of its software setup.

 

I see mention of a "Daemon" but that terminology doesn't fall into line with NAA. Is the daemon the NAA component? Does one simply install any flavor of Linux found on the web on the NAA, then download the drivers for the libsound2 component, then install the daemon on top of it all? If so, why not say that? Why leave anything to the imagination?

 

I've already got a heavy lifting desktop with Ubuntu Studio installed. I've already got a lightweight ALIX 2D2 piece of hardware with Voyage Linux on it. I suspect this is enough to get things rolling but personally it's not worth the effort to blow away an already perfectly working Voyage Linux setup on a gamble with HQ Player if I need to guess if my current equipment will work or not.

 

All I can say is that I have my doubts that I'm alone in my opinion of the lack of documentation for this program and that's its a real shame the creator is too busy to bother writing up something useful but as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink it. Or in this case, there is a money bags worth of potential customers being left on the table but no one can force them to grab it because their too busy writing code

 

I've said my peace at this point, if the message is not understood then I don't think it ever will be.

[kravi4ka]

Hj cjf,

 

I did feel exactly the same way as you do, in fact you probably know more than me about computers. I didn't know what Debian is, what is Jessie, deamon, image... In fact I asked several times if this or that piece of HW was going to work for a NAA and I got no reply but that is OK, I took the time to read a bit more on forums and I was able to do it all myself. It would have been easier, a lot easier for many people if there was a list of equipment, then a 1.2.3 of what to push and write in weird windows popping up but I guess a man can do only a few things at a time, Miska has done a great job of the software and it more important for me as the HQplayer sounds wonderful. You are in no hurry,I guess it is only going to get better with time, you should have seen it in the beginning

 

At least for me the delay in DSC2 development is more painful than figuring out which filter to use, and choosing the filter is a PITA as well

[bibo01]

cjf,

 

If it can be of any help, on Italian NextHardware.com I have prepared a Guide on HQPlayer and various other aspects. There is also an Index with various subjects. You can all easily translate it with Chrome.

Please look at the first three posts:

HQPlayer: Introduzione e Indice argomenti

[Miska]

I get that the the HQ player is installed on a heavy lifting primary desktop but there is nothing that talks about the NAA hardware or what to do in terms of its software setup.

 

I consider NAA installation an advanced topic left for users who are happy to tinker and experiment with their computers. For others, there are devices on the market that have NAA functionality built-in (from exaSound, Sonore and SOtM).

 

At one point I created a step-by-step screenshot series of example NAA setup, but it is now badly outdated (from Sep 2014)...

 

For certain pieces of hardware I've provided easy to use ready-made images. I could probably expand this set a bit to MinnowBoard MAX and Intel Galileo. But generic "any PC" is better left to Debian-based installs to handle the mess with all the drivers for possible hardware configurations.

 

I see mention of a "Daemon" but that terminology doesn't fall into line with NAA. Is the daemon the NAA component?

 

Yes...

 

Does one simply install any flavor of Linux found on the web on the NAA, then download the drivers for the libsound2 component, then install the daemon on top of it all?

 

Yes...

 

On Windows and Mac OS X, it is very easy, you unzip the package and run the provided executable and you are done.

 

If so, why not say that? Why leave anything to the imagination?

 

Because I thought that it is obvious... Just like what to do when you get an application as DMG package for Mac or .exe installer for Windows. Hardware and software requirements are stated on the web page.

 

I've already got a lightweight ALIX 2D2 piece of hardware with Voyage Linux on it. I suspect this is enough to get things rolling but personally it's not worth the effort to blow away an already perfectly working Voyage Linux setup on a gamble with HQ Player if I need to guess if my current equipment will work or not.

 

It should, although the networkaudiod package for 32-bit x86 is left at Jessie level older release at the moment. I'll try to find time to update it to most recent version, but I need to install Debian Stretch on a virtual machine first, or the multi-lib build environment on my 64-bit platform.

 

In any case, NAA doesn't need much space, so for Alix you don't need to touch your existing OS installation, just create a new flash card with the NAA installation. For others using more typical PC's, one can install the OS and networkaudiod on a USB memory stick for experimentation and use.

[kravi4ka]

Dear Miska,

 

I hope I did not sound disrespectful, I just felt the frustration that cjf experienced. But it is not supposed to be easy, is it? I have spent countless hours exchanging speaker cables and power cords to no significant effect, relative to that trying to understand what is a NAA and what is Debian was actually fun and in the end ultimately rewarding.

 

You gave us more than we were hoping for - those images are great for example are great, being spoon fed is nice sometimes And let it not sound as criticism but it would be nice if there is a line in the NAA description - NAA is a device that has to be able to run "this" software, basic requirements are "that". As well as - HQplayer requires CPU/RAM/HDD to run, best results obtained by CPUs with X number of cores and Y speed, CUDA video cards needs to have Z parameter higher than..., the more RAM the better(for example). I hope to be able to buy the freaking i7 6700K but in the mean time if there is an old working station with some kind of Xeon that is out of fashion and is not a million dollars that would be great, I just don't know what is important for the math in HQplayer- speed, number of cores, speed of RAM or some kind of bus... I think it was naughtyboy whose advice was that the CPU needs to score more than 8000 on a certain scale - is that OK because that was a great advice and I could easily check what is on the market locally and wait for a good deal?

 

You will not believe how profoundly uneducated some people like me are regarding computers. But as a friend of mine put it - I have no experience in shooting squirrels and I do not intend to gain any, I am a bit old to learn Linux though I tend to believe I am not so stupid

 

All that with deepest respect for your generosity to provide the HQplayer to the public.

[sydlow]

This is my build, designed to run headless Roon server + HG Player. Its fanless.

Streacom FC5 Alpha Fanless Case

Gigibyte GA-H170N-WIFI

6th Gen Intel Core i7-6700 Processor;

Streacom ZeroFlex 240;

Corsair Vengeance 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 2400MHz ;

Samsung 850 Evo 250Gb M.2 SSD; Samsung 850 Evo 2Tb SSD;

TP Link PCIe GbE Fiber Network Card w/ Open SFP - yup fiber - Merging Nadac via FMC & SNP transreceivers.

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit OEM;

 

Thanks mate - awesome specs for a Roon+HQP machine.

Building one right now!

[itguy61]

It is amazing to me how much money you can spend to get small performance increases. I run an iMac with an i5 2.7 ghz quad core chip and it runs about 45% processor utilization with Roon and HQ player up sampling PCM to DSD 256. These newer processors get that down to 35-40% but cost a lot. How much more powerful is a newest generation i7 than a recent i5 or i7 quad core? is it 20%, 25% increase in power?

[EuroDriver]

It is amazing to me how much money you can spend to get small performance increases. I run an iMac with an i5 2.7 ghz quad core chip and it runs about 45% processor utilization with Roon and HQ player up sampling PCM to DSD 256. These newer processors get that down to 35-40% but cost a lot. How much more powerful is a newest generation i7 than a recent i5 or i7 quad core? is it 20%, 25% increase in power?

 

The benchmark differences between comparable Haswell and Skylake processors is small, but Skylake works significantly better for HQP due to Hyperthreading being implemented much better. Hyperthreaded cores on the same physical core have equal performance in Skylake, which not the case previously. It means that Pipeline mode in works better on Skylake than it did on Haswell

 

We had a definite SQ improvement with HQP when we switched from a 4790K to 6700K on the Sound Galleries Music Server

[MikeJazz]

The benchmark differences between comparable Haswell and Skylake processors is small, but Skylake works significantly better for HQP due to Hyperthreading being implemented much better. Hyperthreaded cores on the same physical core have equal performance in Skylake, which not the case previously. It means that Pipeline mode in works better on Skylake than it did on Haswell

 

We had a definite SQ improvement with HQP when we switched from a 4790K to 6700K on the Sound Galleries Music Server

 

this is exactly what worries me so much about computer audio...

[EuroDriver]

this is exactly what worries me so much about computer audio...

 

But it also gives us the opportunity to improve the sound quality of the playback to levels we never dreamed was possible :-)