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stutter at start when rendering wav 24 bit 192kHz on CA 851N from NAS DS214play


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Though my Cambridge Audio 851N is specced to stream WAV PCM 16-24 bit 32-192kHz, problem occurs when playing back WAV 24 bit 192kHz; i.e. at beginning of track playback stumbles and stutters very shortly once - or twice. After that initial failing no more gaps further on.

 

From NAS DS214play audio is streamed over Ethernet cable and Netgear JGS516 switch (16-Port 10/100/1000 Mbps Gigabit). LAN is not loaded apart from audio streaming. Problem does not occur with smaller files e.g. 24 bit 96kHz tracks is rendered without any hesitation. I have tested playback of same WAV 24 bit 192kHz files thru USB stick plugged in the 851N and they playback convincingly without stutter.

 

I also did test rendering on other devices and the results are:

a. Playback of identical WAV 24 bit 192kHz tracks from very same NAS DS214play through same LAN (id ethernet connected to same switch) on macbook early 2009 OS X 10.10.5 and UPnP media player VLC version 2.2.1 happens flawlessly without any stumble.

b. Moreover, simultaneous replay - again id tracks from id NAS, through id switch and additionally router + wireless AP TL-ER604W from TP Link - on iPhone 5 with DS Audio UPnP app (from Synology), also very convincingly without hesitation - admittedly optimal location of iPhone 5 and no use at all on wifi other than subject streaming.

 

DS214play is generously specced (see attached) and from testing it does not look like a NAS issue and points IMHO to an issue with the Cambridge Audio 851N streamer.

What can be done to cure drop-out? Any experience, opinions, help, advice out there?

 

Thanks in advance

Eric

DS214play - Products - Synology - Network Attached Storage (NAS).pdf

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Try transcoding the files to FLAC (just for testing).

 

How did you create the WAV files? Do they contain any metadata?

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I have a similar issue with you but with 192Khz FLAC files. I am using the CXN with DS214 play with minimserver using ethernet. I previously used QNAP TS251C and had similar issues. Another (more troubling) issue I have is occasionally when I start a track there is loud static, I then need to pause, then play, then it is fine again.

 

Wifi, and using USB stick seems to be better. I have other devices which have network playback functionality (blu-ray player and AV receiver) and there is no problem at all.

 

I raised this with tech support in April and after some back and forth, they could not figure this out and eventually closed the ticket. I just raised this issue with my local service centre (which happens to be CA) and they are looking into it.

 

I’m surprised not to have seen this issue in the forums since these streamers are quite well reviewed and popular.

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Try transcoding the files to FLAC (just for testing).

 

How did you create the WAV files? Do they contain any metadata?

 

I did not create much if anything at all. The music was downloaded from qobuz (against payment), first in wav and after experiencing the stutter problem then also in flac and alac - mind i did not transcode anything myself, i downloaded flac and alac versions straight from qobuz.

Metadata is i suppose standard qobuz - if they apply a standard, i don't know. In any case i did not mingle with the metadata as i still need to find out what editor would suit me. So the whole shebang - wav, flac, alac and metadata - comes straight out of qobuz including the cover art files. Which, I initially thought could cause problems but with or without cover.jpg, 851n reproduces stutter with high fidelity... (i did notice that without cover.jpg 851n does not display cover art, hence i presume covers are not embedded in the metadata)

 

So, after having tried over and over again the different versions of wav, flac and alac (always 192 kHz), the results are:

- wav and flac do not make any difference at all and stutter once (or twice) at the beginning of each track is very convincingly and persistently performed

- alac, i would say makes a slight difference in that initial stutter appears on 4 out of 5 tracks

 

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So it sounds like the problem is with 24/192 file from the NAS to the Cambridge Audio, rather than specifically 24/192 WAV files.

 

I assume you have a computer (PC or MAC) available. Can you try downloading MinimServer and putting that on your computer. Then copy a few tracks which have caused stutter to your computer and use MinimServer to serve them to the Cambridge Audio.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment
So it sounds like the problem is with 24/192 file from the NAS to the Cambridge Audio, rather than specifically 24/192 WAV files.

 

I assume you have a computer (PC or MAC) available. Can you try downloading MinimServer and putting that on your computer. Then copy a few tracks which have caused stutter to your computer and use MinimServer to serve them to the Cambridge Audio.

 

Agree with you: the problem is with 24/192 files (and not only wav) and... many thanks for the advice

Will attempt to implement minimserver on my macbook + test the new scenario hopefully by tomorrow

As i have outcome of testing the minimserver approach i will post

Eric

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So it sounds like the problem is with 24/192 file from the NAS to the Cambridge Audio, rather than specifically 24/192 WAV files.

 

I assume you have a computer (PC or MAC) available. Can you try downloading MinimServer and putting that on your computer. Then copy a few tracks which have caused stutter to your computer and use MinimServer to serve them to the Cambridge Audio.

 

Installing MinimServer was a breeze and I was hopeful and enthusiastic to eventually consider MinimServer as the solution of my woes. Alas, it was not. Here are the results of testing of 176 and 192 kHz files - wav, alac and flac:

 

a) NAS DS214play + Synology Media Server (over ethernet) --> 851n: stutter at beginning of playback

 

b) NAS DS214play + Synology Media Server (over ethernet) --> Macbook with VLC media player: no stutter at all

 

c) NAS DS214play + Synology Media Server (over ethernet + wifi) --> iPhone5 with DS Audio: no stutter at beginning

 

d) Macbook + MinimServer (over ethernet) --> 851n: stutter at beginning of playback

 

As a matter of fact there was no improvement at all of 851n rendering be it streamed from the NAS DS214play or Macbook (+ MinimServer). I also noticed that 851n control operations are slowed down when playing back 176 and 192 kHz and the network player appears busy and stressed.

 

What now? Any advice, recommendation to get me out of this tangle? What are the options?

Many thanks for your attention and help!

 

Eric

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What now? Any advice, recommendation to get me out of this tangle? What are the options?

Many thanks for your attention and help!

Might be worth checking there is no problem with your network cables. You said that you have a good quality switch didn't you?

 

Failing that it sounds like the 851n has a problem with 192 files.

 

Can't think of anything else sorry.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment
Might be worth checking there is no problem with your network cables. You said that you have a good quality switch didn't you?

 

Failing that it sounds like the 851n has a problem with 192 files.

 

Can't think of anything else sorry.

 

I believe that Netgear JGS516 switch (16-Port 10/100/1000 Mbps Gigabit) is state of the art but i'm no network expert. I noticed that 851n has 100Mbps port (not a Gigabit port). I presume that at CA they did their maths and that 100 Mbps port is sufficient to sustain flows of 176 / 192 kHz files (?)

 

For what concerns the cabling, i have no clue how to check (technician who installed cables did the check). What I can still do is to stream over another ethernet cable and report back on that test, but this might take a bit more time.

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I believe that Netgear JGS516 switch (16-Port 10/100/1000 Mbps Gigabit) is state of the art but i'm no network expert. I noticed that 851n has 100Mbps port (not a Gigabit port). I presume that at CA they did their maths and that 100 Mbps port is sufficient to sustain flows of 176 / 192 kHz files (?)

Yes, 100Mbps is more than sufficient.

 

For what concerns the cabling, i have no clue how to check (technician who installed cables did the check). What I can still do is to stream over another ethernet cable and report back on that test, but this might take a bit more time.

Thats what I was thinking, try a different cable - its unlikely to be the problem but worth checking.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment

Do you experience this stutter when playing tracks sequentially in a queue? I experience the stutter when I interrupt the queue i.e. when I skip tracks or when i replace the queue. When I turn on the player and play the first track it stutters. When I leave the player streaming tracks in a queue I don’t experience stutter.

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Does it happen more with longer tracks (= larger files)?

 

If file size is an issue, using FLAC would reduce the problem, since the files are only half as large as WAV.

 

I had such a stuttering problem with my Oppo 93, and I found out it was due to large (>1MB) image files being used as cover pics in FLAC tags. Replacing them with small images fixed the problem. The player was probably too busy loading and displaying the large image files while starting playback at the same time, which lead to drop-outs.

Claude

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CatManDo's suggestion of checking the size of artwork is a good one.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment
Does it happen more with longer tracks (= larger files)?

 

If file size is an issue, using FLAC would reduce the problem, since the files are only half as large as WAV.

 

I had such a stuttering problem with my Oppo 93, and I found out it was due to large (>1MB) image files being used as cover pics in FLAC tags. Replacing them with small images fixed the problem. The player was probably too busy loading and displaying the large image files while starting playback at the same time, which lead to drop-outs.

 

can you please tell me how to check the size of the image file? i understand the image is embedded in the music file. i am using audivarna plus on a mac and cannot see any option to look at the image size, only to replace it with a new one. Thanks

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Does it happen more with longer tracks (= larger files)?

 

If file size is an issue, using FLAC would reduce the problem, since the files are only half as large as WAV.

 

 

i followed the same line of thinking but the result of my tests did not corroborate this logic

 

indeed, stutter persistently occurs at the beginning of 176 / 192 kHz tracks never mind if the music is streamed in wav, flac or alac

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can you please tell me how to check the size of the image file? i understand the image is embedded in the music file. i am using audivarna plus on a mac and cannot see any option to look at the image size, only to replace it with a new one. Thanks

The easiest thing would be to use something like XLD to convert the file into a new file, but make sure you don't add any artwork.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment
I had such a stuttering problem with my Oppo 93, and I found out it was due to large (>1MB) image files being used as cover pics in FLAC tags. Replacing them with small images fixed the problem. The player was probably too busy loading and displaying the large image files while starting playback at the same time, which lead to drop-outs.

 

for the music i did test large cover art file was loaded in cover.jpg in the album directory

i removed the cover.jpg and:

- no cover art was displayed

- stutter still there

 

i assumed that as cover art was not anymore displayed - after having removed the cover.jpg - there was no cover art stored in the tags but now not so sure this is a correct conclusion???

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ok, mine only stutters when skipping and when playing random tracks and not sequential in the queue. anyway i'm asking the service centre and if there is any progress i will let you know.

 

many thanks tony

yes please keep me posted

what and where is this service center?

would it be possible that i contact the service center staff?

i have posted my whereabouts on the CA techsupport site - request #22013 - but to no avail till now

 

KR

eric

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can you please tell me how to check the size of the image file? i understand the image is embedded in the music file. i am using audivarna plus on a mac and cannot see any option to look at the image size, only to replace it with a new one. Thanks

 

I'm a Windows user only. I use MP3Tag (which supports all common music files, despite the outdated name), which displays the size of the cover image file (see screenshot) and can replace the image file with a smaller one (I usually get them from allmusic.com)

 

mp3tag-en.png

Claude

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I'm a Windows user only. I use MP3Tag (which supports all common music files, despite the outdated name), which displays the size of the cover image file (see screenshot) and can replace the image file with a smaller one (I usually get them from allmusic.com)

 

scanned - admittedly very quickly - through the mp3tag supported audio formats and wav is not supported, nor aiff and alac. If this is the case it will unfortunately not work for me

what about kid3, is this a valid tag editor?

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many thanks tony

yes please keep me posted

what and where is this service center?

would it be possible that i contact the service center staff?

i have posted my whereabouts on the CA techsupport site - request #22013 - but to no avail till now

 

KR

eric

i previously raised my issue with tech support - my ticket number was 14905 but they closed it with no resolution.

i'm based in hong kong and i contacted the local service center as the machine is still under warranty. they passed my issue to UK and are following up.

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Solved! or so i would like to believe... I think i got it somehow nailed, and here is the story

 

I did take out of the shed my old 3com hub - which is gear from the previous century... - solely equipped with 10 / 100 Mbps ports, hooked the old thing between the ethernet ports of the brand new 851n & Netgear switch (without changing ports nor substituting ethernet cable that plugs into the streamer) and restarted the whole shebang. Instead of streaming from gigabit port, now audio was streaming from a 100 Mbps port to 851n. And the result is: no more stutter! mp3 at 320 kbps (or lower), wav, flac, aiff or alac at 44 / 88 / 96 / 176 or 192 kHz are all very pleasingly served

 

My suspicion arose when rethinking for the umpteenth time the LAN connectivity. At this point i started to wonder if little 851n did manage to properly link up with gigabit ethernet devices. The Netgear switch which interconnects DS214play, 851n (and other devices) is of course capable of switching 10 / 100 / 1000 Mbps as most state of the art network switches do. But what about 851n? CA specced 851n with a 100 Mbps port - or at least this is what is stated in the product sheet. Now, 100 Mbps devices work very well with Netgear switches; indeed, it is no bother at all for my older TP router, HP printer, Apple Airport, etc: all are equipped with 100 Mbps ports and all work happily with Netgear switch. So it should work but... does it actually work with 851n?

 

From this case my preliminary conclusion is that 851n does not manage properly streaming of 176 / 192 kHz on gigabit LAN. To me it looks like 851n is somehow overwhelmed and does not process properly when a gigabit source is hitting its 100 Mbps port with 176 or 192 kHz streams. Perhaps 851n does not know how to signify his partner to slowdown? Or whatever the true root cause might be, i do not know...

 

In conclusion: its the network, dummy! Or how state of the art network equipment (or marketed as such) is saved by an unassuming 16 years old (obsolete) hub...

 

Now, I'm no network / IT geek and I might be totally wrong in my analysis. Anyway, finally there is progress and since yesterday evening 851n renders without stumbling. In the coming days I will further test the partnering between 851n, LAN & server and hopefully my preliminary findings will be corroborated. I wouldn't say all is well because that cannot be the end of the story

hence, I would very much appreciate if you confront and challenge my reasoning & testing

 

Many thanks to all

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