Bugs, Regens, Words...Hilarity!

[mmerrill99]

The biggest damage that Amir has done in that WBF thread is his report on his meeting John Swenson & Alex C & their chat in RMAF. This is damning in that the impression is given (no, sorry, he states it outright) that JohnS doesn't have the equipment to do the Regen tests & that they don't seem willing to buy such equipment.

 

This looks very bad for Uptone on so many fronts & something that should be addressed & corrected if it isn't a true account of what was said.

 

Amir measurements are laughable & amateur, but this report throws significant doubt on Uptone's credibility, I'm sorry to say.

Sure. First the funny part. He is NOT the John Swanson that I knew from audio world. His day job is actually a chip designer unrelated to audio. He does have some specific expertise here in having designed a USB interface. On that basis, he thought that the poor quality of USB can cause additional activity in the receiver and hence lead to more noise and in turn poorer fidelity. As I have explained repeatedly, I don't think this problem is something we have or needs solving.

 

As to the core of the discussion in the thread, they were in principal accepting the issue. That new 8 Khz tones are generated with Regen that don't exist without. I say "in principal" because he doesn't have high resolution audio test equipment to verify what we are seeing. Like all electronics designers, he has access to very high speed digital scopes that sample and 2 billion times/second (compare that to 384 thousand for audio) with FFT math function. Unfortunately as he realized, these are useless for audio because the ADCs that run at 2 Gigasamples/second, have only 8 or so bits of resolution. That is fine for most design work. But not for this. 8 bits gives you only 67 db or so of signal to noise ratio in the instrument. The spikes we are talking about are tens of dB lower level so wind up getting lost in the noise floor of the scope.

 

He also has an analog spectrum analyzer but its minimum resolution is 10 Hz which is also insufficient. They had gone to the Audio Precision booth but got the sticker shock when they found out the top of the line unit retails for $28,000. Hard to justify such capital equipment investment on backs of this little product.

 

I offered to run tests for them remotely with my AP but John rightly expressed concern that this would be too slow of a process to debug and fix anything.

 

Alex talked about designing tests that would better correlate to what we hear. We discussed that a bit but I told them that for now, we had a specific problem to fix for which we have instrumentation. What he wants to do is the equiv. of achieving world peace. It is not something we can tackle in this context with the amount of resources and time we all have. But that I would be interested in what ideas there might be.

 

As I noted, we both are zooming in on the same theory that I have been describing. I will try to run the test he suggested but it requires instrumenting the DAC internally and while John is confident the measurement works to show ground bounce, I am not so sure.

 

Anyway, I offered to help in any way I can for them to resolve the issue.

[Superdad]

The biggest damage that Amir has done in that WBF thread is his report on his meeting John Swenson & Alex C & their chat in RMAF. This is damning in that the impression is given (no, sorry, he states it outright) that JohnS doesn't have the equipment to do the Regen tests & that they don't seem willing to buy such equipment.

 

This looks very bad for Uptone on so many fronts & something that should be addressed & corrected if it isn't a true account of what was said.

 

Amir measurements are laughable & amateur, but this report throws significant doubt on Uptone's credibility, I'm sorry to say.

 

It is true that we have yet to purchase the $16K Audio Precision APX525 with BW52 Ultra-high bandwidth option--the ONLY test system that can do a 1.2 million point FFT with 24-bit resolution and wide bandwidth--required to properly look at noise down that low.

 

Yet John is convinced that the very audible affect of the improved signal integrity (proved with our own and J. Westlake's eye-pattern tests) is not due to the subtle, extremely low-level variations seen with FFTs of noise (which is what Amir measured--and he admits it is not jitter). Rather we believe the answers may be found in transient testing. The the USB packet data rate has a lot of empty space and then a bunch of spiky activity every 8KHz (125uSec). That activity could be hammering on the power supply of the DAC's USB input and causing problems. Such would explain a lot (including why a very few DACs and the Aurender streamers don't benefit as much from the REGEN).

 

John is working up some new tests for this, and if successful they would go a long way towards explaining a lot of things in USB audio that people readily hear but which traditional measurements to-date have not revealed. He proposed one to Amir, but that is the one that Amir dismissed as "the equivalent of achieving world peace," and he seemed more interested in trying what John suggested to compare ground-plane noise from within the DAC at two points. He seemed pretty fixated on finding the source of the low level spurie at the 8Khz packet rate, and since he has an AP test system to look at that, why not check it out. John does not see that with the DACs he has (and despite claims to the contrary, it is not limitations of his test gear preventing such).

 

But again, I don't believe answers regarding the audibility of the REGEN (or of a bunch of well regarded tweaks which the measurement folks keep applying the same old tests to, and, not measuring a difference, declare that one can not be) are going to be found with static measures.

Our ear/brain system recognizes instrumental timbres in the first fractions of a millisecond of the attack. Isn't it suspicious that many "unmeasurable" but audible refinements in audio and musical realism clearly fall in the realm of transient ability and distinction?

 

Power supplies are one very relevant example (because they may even be at the heart of REGEN effect since during development John improved the device's "hierarchy of charge" circuit and that's when I heard the promise of the piece):

How many of you really think that all performance (and sonic) differences between power supplies (internal, external, whatever) come down to which supply has the absolute lowest noise? You all know there is much more to it than that, and testing a PS' recovery speed and the ability to keep up with multiple transients is key. Yet all we ever see are low level noise measures.

 

Frankly I view the call for us to purchase a megabuck test suite as a straw man argument skirting the issue. One does not need an MRI machine to tell a finger is broken--an X-ray read by a good radiologist will do. And the MRI machine is useless in identifying a virus. The audible changes wrought by the REGEN on a majority of people's systems are large enough to not require looking for clues in the dirt floor with a magnifying glass. Everyone's ears are not lying, but they are not hearing things down at the microscopic level where the measurement people are looking.

 

Believe me, I am as anxious as anyone for John (Swenson) or John (Westlake) or John (Atkinson) or Amir to put forth a dynamic test that will visually reveal (or at least give better clues) to what we hear. But until that day comes, we will continue to do as every other high-end audio manufacturer does, and combine measurements with listening--to offer products that are meaningful in people's music systems.

 

To those that view this as "snake oil," please do not buy our products. What I don't quite understand is why, with so many truly dubious audio products out there--many selling for 10x the REGEN's price--is why so much attention and vitriolic criticism has been aimed at our little device. Is the product a threat to some people's belief system?

 

Some people are rather stuck in the camp of "If it can't be measured, it can't be heard." I think more open and scientific minds would think "If it can be heard, then perhaps we are measuring the wrong things." Yet anytime that is brought up--as I did when we met Amir (who is actually a VERY nice fellow!)--the argument turns to "Well you have not proven that people are hearing anything" (ABX testes, etc.). That's where I get off the merry-go-round. Most designers get off there too. Ask any if they needed definitive measurements or a full double-blind ABX study to choose the film capacitors or resistors they use in their speakers or preamp, or if that wonderfully measuring OPAMP conveys music the way their refined-for-years discrete stage does.

 

By the way, what do the famous Bascom King, Paul McGowan, and Arnie Nudell all have in common besides well over a combined century designing and listening to audio gear (currently for PS Audio)? They all own and love the USB REGEN in their music systems. No measures there, just a verifiable fact.

 

Regards,

--Alex Crespi

UpTone Audio LLC

 

P.S. Since iFi Audio are now selling their iUSB3.0 product (a much more expensive, more elaborate version of a REGEN, though with USB 3.0 hub chips--and many more marketing claims than I ever made), perhaps the measurement folks will soon focus on that "snake oil" component by another competent designer.

[mmerrill99]

Alex,

I don't want to give you a hard time but some things you say contradict previous statements made by Uptone about the Regen:

- The Regen was stated as never being designed to deal with the 8KHz USB protocol noise so I'm not sure what this means

"The the USB packet data rate has a lot of empty space and then a bunch of spiky activity every 8KHz (125uSec). That activity could be hammering on the power supply of the DAC's USBinput and causing problems. Such would explain a lot (including why a very few DACs and the Aurender streamers don't benefit as much from the REGEN)."

 

- The Regen seems to increase this 8KHz noise (in JohnW's & Amir & BE718 measurements) - is this not a useful avenue to research?

- I think many here were under the impression that the original issue the Regen was purported to address was the issue of weak USB SI causing ground noise in the USB PHY? Has this changed?

- I think many here, I certainly was, were under the impression that JohnS had already measured some issues & we were awaiting refinement & posting of these measurements.

 

Again, sorry if this hits hard but I believe it's for the best

 

Could you possibly expand on this new test JohnS is proposing & tell us more about this test approach as keeping it to oneself is of no value & once the measurements are out the measurement technique will have to be explained anyway? By releasing this information it may spur others to find some ways to do such a test?

 

John is working up some new tests for this, and if successful they would go a long way towards explaining a lot of things in USB audio that people readily hear but which traditional measurements to-date have not revealed. He proposed one to Amir, but that is the one that Amir dismissed as "the equivalent of achieving world peace,"

 

I believe many are on your side here but you have to reciprocate with information & set the agenda for measurements. Leaving it upto John Westlake, Amir or John Atkinson, is allowing all sorts of misdirection to take place & frankly an erosion of Uptone's credibility.

 

I doubt iFi will be entangled in measurements as they will be seen as just another audio company producing "a nice little earner" as has already been stated on forums. Being the first to introduce the concept the focus will remain on Uptone, I suspect.

[plissken]

If Amir's measurements are independently reproducible the Jitterbug and ReGen represent problems being added. Not subtracted.

 

I've been asking for UpTone to just show me some measurements. Because I don't believe that when you have a hardware engineer designing something that they are doing it from the hip or without stated resolution to some issue in mind.

[mmerrill99]

If Amir's measurements are independently reproducible the Jitterbug and ReGen represent problems being added. Not subtracted.

Not necessarily but this is what happens when the measurements are focussed in one area. Firstly, the amplitude level of the 8Hz noise spike & its harmonics are agreed by all who measured it to be far below audibility. Fact of the matter is that there may well be other areas where improvements are being made by the Regen & where the audible improvement of the Regen will be seen but the problem is that we currently don't have these measurements so it's difficult point to argue without data. Nevertheless, such a possibility has to be borne in mind.

[BobSherman]

Idiots will bother with no measurements....

 

 

lol smh...

[plissken]

Not necessarily but this is what happens when the measurements are focussed in one area. Firstly, the amplitude level of the 8Hz noise spike & its harmonics are agreed by all who measured it to be far below audibility. Fact of the matter is that there may well be other areas where improvements are being made by the Regen & where the audible improvement of the Regen will be seen but the problem is that we currently don't have these measurements so it's difficult point to argue without data. Nevertheless, such a possibility has to be borne in mind.

 

In reading the WBF thread two people have measured and shown like components being introduced. Now they are incredibly buried in the noise floor and, IMO, inconsequential. But why pay for something that is negatively inconsequential?

 

I'm certainly not going for any faith based testimonials. Well unless they want to submit to 'wearing the blindfold'.

 

I think UpTone is going to have ongoing 'issues' from here. They either didn't measure (which is a problem) or they measured and didn't post those results (which is a damnable problem).

[plissken]

lol smh...

 

If you don't shoot your room with pink noise, sweeps etc and you are striving for good audio. Yes you are an idiot for trying to get there with out it.

 

There's another thread here about Pro Audio and Audiophiles and why guys at a forum like Gearslutz look down on audiophiles.

 

You have your answer in smh.

[Jud]

I had the opportunity to meet and speak with both Amir and John Swenson at RMAF. As Alex says, Amir is very nice. What I don't understand is how Amir apparently got the impression that John either doesn't care about or is clueless concerning measurements and design. I am not an engineer, but I have been responsible for selection and preparation of direct (and cross) examination of many expert witnesses on highly technical issues in major litigations. One develops a sense of who has command of a subject and who doesn't. John impressed me as decidedly one of the former.

[Superdad]

I think UpTone is going to have ongoing 'issues' from here. They either didn't measure (which is a problem) or they measured and didn't post those results (which is a damnable problem).

 

Really? Then please point me to all the high-end digital and analog manufacturers (selling products for $2,000 to $60,000+) who are publishing detailed measures proving each claim for each aspect of their design.

 

UpTone is more open and honest than most audio firms with regards to products, operations, etc.--even admitting not yet having analog measures showing the benefits of measurably improved USB signal integrity--but there are sensible limits to how much we "live" in public, and frankly there is no obligation on our part to "prove" anything to people who are entrenched in their own worldview and not curious enough to step outside the box once in a while.

Very sorry if my tone comes off as bitter. I shouldn't be, sales are great, the Stereophile review just hit, and we have other new products in the works. But after a while the mis- and dis-information gets wearisome.

 

Cheers,

ALEX

[plissken]

Really? Then please point me to all the high-end digital and analog manufacturers (selling products for $2,000 to $60,000+) who are publishing detailed measures proving each claim for each aspect of their design.

 

UpTone is more open and honest than most audio firms with regards to products, operations, etc.--even admitting not yet having analog measures showing the benefits of measurably improved USB signal integrity--but there are sensible limits to how much we "live" in public, and frankly there is no obligation on our part to "prove" anything to people who are entrenched in their own worldview and not curious enough to step outside the box once in a while.

Very sorry if my tone comes off as bitter. I shouldn't be, sales are great, the Stereophile review just hit, and we have other new products in the works. But after a while the mis- and dis-information gets wearisome.

 

Cheers,

ALEX

 

We aren't talking about other manufacturers here. And I don't purchase on faith based only commentary. There are handful of USB regeneration type devices, there's a handful of audiophile Ethernet cables out there.

 

Here's the difference: I can purchase a BJC or Tripplite Ethernet cable with Fluke measurements. I can't purchase an audiophile Ethernet cable or USB regen product with the same.

 

If my world view is of the 'Due Diligence' variety I'll take it.

 

You're tone is bitter because someone's somewhere else measured your own device. And the results are troubling.

 

This potential storm is of your own making for not getting some credible measurements to backup the claims. Get the measurements out there. Work with a lab that has the proper Audio Precision hardware. Produce independently verifiable results showing improvements and you'll sell another 4000 in addition to the 2000 you've already moved.

[plissken]

I had the opportunity to meet and speak with both Amir and John Swenson at RMAF. As Alex says, Amir is very nice. What I don't understand is how Amir apparently got the impression that John either doesn't care about or is clueless concerning measurements and design. I am not an engineer, but I have been responsible for selection and preparation of direct (and cross) examination of many expert witnesses on highly technical issues in major litigations. One develops a sense of who has command of a subject and who doesn't. John impressed me as decidedly one of the former.

 

BTW Amir is the MS VP that architected the MS transition from KMixer to WASAPI.

 

He's also the author of college text's on both Unix and EE.

 

He has the credentials to be performing the testing he is doing.

[YashN]

He has the credentials to be performing the testing he is doing.

 

Really?

 

So you thought his measurements were well-made?

[plissken]

Really?

 

So you thought his measurements were well-made?

 

They are certainly reproducible. They are also all made in the audio band. So yes his measurements seem totally copacetic.

 

I've yet to see anyone knock him off that particular perch.

[YashN]

They are certainly reproducible. They are also all made in the audio band. So yes his measurements seem totally copacetic.

 

I've yet to see anyone knock him off that particular perch.

 

I didn't ask if they were reproducible, I asked if you thought they were well-made.

[al210]

The 2qute is around 1800 vs 2250 or so for the Yggy so 400-500 bucks not 1K .Price is pretty close. I'm in the U.S>

 

My bad your correct, that was an initial price I was thinking from way back. So it's really 22 percent more then. Would you say its worth the 22 % more than.

[Jud]

BTW Amir is the MS VP that architected the MS transition from KMixer to WASAPI.

 

He's also the author of college text's on both Unix and EE.

 

He has the credentials to be performing the testing he is doing.

 

Yes, I'm not among those who questioned Amir's qualifications.

[plissken]

I didn't ask if they were reproducible, I asked if you thought they were well-made.

 

I've seen nothing circumspect about how he tested. I don't believe the data to be debatable.

 

If it was I think there has been more than enough time for holes to be poked.

[al210]

UpTone is more open and honest than most audio firms with regards to products, operations, etc.--even admitting not yet having analog measures showing the benefits of measurably improved USB signal integrity--but there are sensible limits to how much we "live" in public, and frankly there is no obligation on our part to "prove" anything to people who are entrenched in their own worldview and not curious enough to step outside the box once in a while.

Very sorry if my tone comes off as bitter. I shouldn't be, sales are great, the Stereophile review just hit, and we have other new products in the works. But after a while the mis- and dis-information gets wearisome.

 

Cheers,

ALEX

 

Uptone is definitely fair, open and honest in my experience.

They will let you return the product no questions asked in 30 days.

I was a few days over the 30 day limit and had no problem getting it returned.

 

Thats pretty fair and honest IMO.

[sandyk]

How many start up firms have the capital behind them to initially start out with such expensive high tech test equipment ?

It is readily seen that Alex C is ploughing back much of the profit made so far into better test equipment for John Swenson.

 

Get real !!! Rome wasn't built in a day either.

 

Alex

[BobSherman]

As Alex says, Amir is very nice. What I don't understand is how Amir apparently got the impression that John either doesn't care about or is clueless concerning measurements and design.

 

Hi Jud,

 

The answer to your question is... He wanted to believe that about John and convey such a message to help support the cause.

 

I value your opinion and know what you are saying about John is true. .

 

It is always great when one feels they have to start the sentence with... Someone is a nice guy. We've heard that one before…

 

It can often be put in the same category as when one try to explain away racism with the claim they have a black friend. Since the beginning of time lots of "nice guys" have done allot of not nice things.

 

Regards

Bob

[plissken]

How many start up firms have the capital behind them to initially start out with such expensive high tech test equipment ?

 

Alex

 

You don't. You work with a place that can either vet with their equipment or you rent it.

[Daudio]

I don't purchase on faith based only commentary...

I can purchase a BJC or Tripplite Ethernet cable with Fluke measurements. I can't purchase an audiophile Ethernet cable or USB regen product with the same.

...my world view is of the 'Due Diligence' variety .

 

Snake,

 

Sounds like you would be a lot happier on the gasbag forum

 

If you won't accept the overwhelming positive 'subjective' evaluations of the UpTone device, fine, don't buy one. Bitching about not having measurements is a waste of your, and everyone else's, time here. There are very few measurements posted to this forum, and massively outnumbered by listening reports. That is just the way it is here. So quit complaining, produce your own measurements and publish them. Or move on...

[mmerrill99]

By & large, measurements on digital source devices do not define how they sound.

Amir's use of measurements solely on the analogue out of a DAC shows his bias & lack of scientific approach to characterising a device via measurement - something he claimed he would be doing prior to receiving the Regen.

 

He may be a nice guy, have some measurement experience from his MS days & some equipment but his approach & his categorical statements were the stuff of tabloid reporting

 

He jumped to wrong conclusions about the 8KHz noise spikes which result from the high-speed USB protocol. He reported that they were 4KHz jitter side spurs.

He was wrong about PLLs in DACs which eliminate jitter & couldn't even show this was true for his Meridien DAC

He was wrong about USB isolation when high speed USB is involved

 

PLLs & USB isolation were reasons he gave for why devices like the Regen were of no benefit & why he measured the DAC's analogue output

 

So in 3 major areas & statements he was wrong & his focus on measuring only the analogue outs of a single DAC "before declaring a rock from the garden would be better" show a very biased & amateur approach to measurements.

 

One question that should be asked - The Meridien DAC he used is powered from 5V USB - when the Regen was used, this 5V was now being supplied by a different (cleaner?) PS. How come his measurements don't show a significant difference with the Regen's PS & how come it doesn't sound different. I don't have experience of the Meridien DAC but in all my experience with such USB powered DACs (& my reading of others reports) when the 5V USB is changed for a different PS there is usually a significant difference in sound which I expect would show on measurements also.

 

So, despite Amir being a nice guy, his measurements can & should be queried

 

But this would be solved or at least addressed somewhat if Uptone saw fit to produce their own measurements or indeed even spoke about what measurements are considered to be required to characterise the Regen!!

[sandyk]

You don't. You work with a place that can either vet with their equipment or you rent it.

 

My point was that Alex C was already ploughing proceeds back into more expensive test equipment for John BEFORE this current nastiness, and my understanding is that he would continue to do so as funds permitted.

I can fully understand why Alex C as an experienced person in this area from the Hovland days, would wish to go this route.