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I am doing preliminary planning for a dedicated audio computer to replace my modified laptop. My W4S DAC accepts I2S input. From postings here I2S sound quality is at least as good as USB and probably better. Pink Faun and maybe others make an I2S out board. So I am thinking of using I2S and maybe building in a good USB output to make direct comparisons. Anyone have experience using I2S out and into their DAC, comments on SQ, tech issues, etc. Thanks.

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I'm going down this path as well.

 

I'm building a CAPS Pipeline to replace my CAPS Zuma (with SOtM LPS + JCAT BPS).

The CAPS Zuma will then be changed to use the Pink Faun I2S board.

 

It'll likely be a few weeks before I have both done. Sound quality is my main goal too.

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I'm going down this path as well.

 

I'm building a CAPS Pipeline to replace my CAPS Zuma (with SOtM LPS + JCAT BPS).

The CAPS Zuma will then be changed to use the Pink Faun I2S board.

 

It'll likely be a few weeks before I have both done. Sound quality is my main goal too.

 

I'm looking at a Micro Zuma but in a larger case perhaps and also found the Pink Faun board.

 

Not sure of your location but I'm looking for a USA source if possible.

 

Would be very interested in hearing back on your results. Thanks.

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+1

 

Anyone out there compared IS2 to USB in the same system?

 

I have a W4S DSD DAC which has an IS2/HDMI connector input and might consider switching if there were folks experiencing of an improvement over USB.

 

Thanks for starting this thread.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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+1

 

Another W4S Dac2 dsd se user that would love to hear about how this compares to usb.

Bob

 

Mac Mini M1 12 volt dc > Roon > HQ Player to DSD 256 > Fibre to EtherRegen w/LPS1.2 and BG7TBL OCXO > Sonore microRendu v1.3 > IsoRegen > Denafrips Iris > i2s  > Denafrips Pontus II > Schiit Freya+ w/ Linlai E-6SN7's >  Nord One Up NCore 500 monoblocks REV D w/SI990Enh op amps > Martin Logan Impression 11A w/ dual Rythmik E15HP2 subs. Supra Cat8, JPS Labs Superconductor+ cables

 

 

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Not sure of your location but I'm looking for a USA source if possible.

 

Pink Faun has no NA distributors but they will sell direct for €227.27 excluding shipping.

 

I'm also seeing that this unit will not pass DSD, which may throw a wrench into my plans as I prefer to upconvert to DSD in the software player before passing to the DAC.

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I contacted Wyred4Sound and asked about it since my DAC has that input available. They said that most of the users that they were aware of were using it to connect to their W4S M2 music server.

 

My guess is that there are very few folks using it so not much anecdotal reporting or comparisons...


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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I contacted Wyred4Sound and asked about it since my DAC has that input available. They said that most of the users that they were aware of were using it to connect to their W4S M2 music server.

 

My guess is that there are very few folks using it so not much anecdotal reporting or comparisons...

 

The Pink Faun site has a page discussing some of the technical aspects. I also exchanged a few emails with Jord who seems to be a Pink Faun principal, here is an unedited excerpt from one email to me. I had explained how I currently upsample PCM to DSD in JRiver with USB out to my DSD se, and his response:

 

"I2S can only handle PCM signals, because I2S is a multi bit signal. The up-sampling in JRiver to DSD can definitely sound better if you use an USB connection to the DAC. I noticed this by my self, when I was using an USB connection.

Before we launched the I2S-bridge, I did some serious testing with PCM and DSD files over USB. Because I know, if we choose for the I2S-bridge, there's no room for DSD. The sound quality of DSD is absolutely not bad, and I think in some situations DSD will sound better than PCM. However, when playing PCM files over the I2S-bridge the quality is by far better than upsampling the files to DSD."

 

Intriguing.

 

 

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The Pink Faun site has a page discussing some of the technical aspects. I also exchanged a few emails with Jord who seems to be a Pink Faun principal, here is an unedited excerpt from one email to me. I had explained how I currently upsample PCM to DSD in JRiver with USB out to my DSD se, and his response:

 

"I2S can only handle PCM signals, because I2S is a multi bit signal. The up-sampling in JRiver to DSD can definitely sound better if you use an USB connection to the DAC. I noticed this by my self, when I was using an USB connection.

Before we launched the I2S-bridge, I did some serious testing with PCM and DSD files over USB. Because I know, if we choose for the I2S-bridge, there's no room for DSD. The sound quality of DSD is absolutely not bad, and I think in some situations DSD will sound better than PCM. However, when playing PCM files over the I2S-bridge the quality is by far better than upsampling the files to DSD."

 

Intriguing.

 

 

 

Very intriguing. Although my DAC with handle DSD natively I find that 99% of the time I am listening to Redbook or hi-res 24 bit downloads. I have tried upsampling to DSD but my i3 processor which I chose for its low heat in my fan-less case does not seem up to the task. I get dropouts or garbled output. I am tempted to try the i2S card.

 

To be honest this is just fun play as I am very happy with my current system even playing 16\44.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm planning the same and will report if ever my Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC arrives. I'm guessing about the time that happens Phil will have released Optimizer for W10. I've been threatening to just buy the W4S if the Black Dragon doesn't arrive soon,but I like the idea of the HPA on the Dragon which the W4S lacks.

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I'm planning the same and will report if ever my Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC arrives. I'm guessing about the time that happens Phil will have released Optimizer for W10. I've been threatening to just buy the W4S if the Black Dragon doesn't arrive soon,but I like the idea of the HPA on the Dragon which the W4S lacks.

 

Cool. Not familiar with this DAC, what is HPA?

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I contacted Wyred4Sound and asked about it since my DAC has that input available. They said that most of the users that they were aware of were using it to connect to their W4S M2 music server.

 

My guess is that there are very few folks using it so not much anecdotal reporting or comparisons...

 

I'm using the I2S interface on my W4S DAC2 DSD-se via an Empirical Audio OR5. I vastly prefer the I2S input but I have to admit that I'm not sure if it's the interface or the OR5 that's making the difference. Probably both.

2012 MBP (OSX 10.11 and Amarra Symphony w/IRC)-> Revelation Dual Conduit USB -> Berkeley Alpha USB -> Verastarr Silver Signature AES -> Devialet D250-> Siltech 550L -> KEF 104/2 (Steve Nugent Custom).

 

Power conditioning Audience Adept AR2p -> Verastarr Grand Illusion, Siltech Explorer 270p and Crystal Cable Standard Diamond

Analog: VPI Classic 3, Sumiko Pearwood Celebration ii, Siltech 770i RCA

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I'm planning the same and will report if ever my Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC arrives. I'm guessing about the time that happens Phil will have released Optimizer for W10. I've been threatening to just buy the W4S if the Black Dragon doesn't arrive soon,but I like the idea of the HPA on the Dragon which the W4S lacks.

 

I'm using the I2S interface on my W4S DAC2 DSD-se via an Empirical Audio OR5. I vastly prefer the I2S input but I have to admit that I'm not sure if it's the interface or the OR5 that's making the difference. Probably both.

 

Great to get some feedback. In looking up the Black Dragon I noticed they have the Hydra Z with is a sort of swiss army knife adapter for USB to different digital outputs, one of which is i2s via HDMI. Not too many reviews about it online though. Also the Sonore Rendu has an i2s output option although it is a network renderer and so would replace my local USB server altogether or at least use it as a streamer instead.

 

It is hard to evaluate a purchase of an i2s interface as there are few folks out there comparing them to a somewhat tricked out CAPS box which is what I use now.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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What you have to understand about i2s is that it is the native interface to the DAC chip inside your DAC. It was designed by Phillips (IIRC) in the mid 80s (and later developed in the mid 90s) to standardise interfacing between digital audio ICs (i2s or iis stands for Inter-IC Sound) and was designed for a few mm between devices on a circuit board. At some point various manufacturers extended this outside the box to connect transports to DACs.

 

When PS Audio created their PWD DAC and PWT Transport (in the late 2000s) they developed an LVDS (low voltage differential signalling) version of i2s which utilised HDMI cabling (please note this is not a HDMI protocol just uses the cabling). If you are not using an LVDS version of i2s; please be aware that the device is using i2s in a way it is not designed for, and which may be of lesser quality even if it measures well.

 

Now in most cases your USB interface on your DAC will convert to i2s internally, the same for inputs such as Ethernet.

 

Right now thats cleared up you have to look at how to implement i2s for connection to a computer in the real world.

 

A computer does not output i2s. That is that if you wish utilise the i2s connection to your DAC you are going to have to use some form of interface. That may connect via USB (such as the OffRoad or they Hydra) or may be a PCI card such as the Pink Faun. This in itself is no guarantee of improvement over the USB input of a DAC; it is simply moving the interface from one location (inside the DAC) to another (in a separate box or into the PC). There is potential for improvement in quality because of a higher quality USB interface, better isolation, etc.

 

None of this is about sound quality; just explaining what i2s is and why its no guarantee of improvement of quality.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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What you have to understand about i2s is that it is the native interface to the DAC chip inside your DAC. It was designed by Phillips (IIRC) in the mid 80s (and later developed in the mid 90s) to standardise interfacing between digital audio ICs (i2s or iis stands for Inter-IC Sound) and was designed for a few mm between devices on a circuit board. At some point various manufacturers extended this outside the box to connect transports to DACs.

 

When PS Audio created their PWD DAC and PWT Transport (in the late 2000s) they developed an LVDS (low voltage differential signalling) version of i2s which utilised HDMI cabling (please note this is not a HDMI protocol just uses the cabling). If you are not using an LVDS version of i2s; please be aware that the device is using i2s in a way it is not designed for, and which may be of lesser quality even if it measures well.

 

Now in most cases your USB interface on your DAC will convert to i2s internally, the same for inputs such as Ethernet.

 

Right now thats cleared up you have to look at how to implement i2s for connection to a computer in the real world.

 

A computer does not output i2s. That is that if you wish utilise the i2s connection to your DAC you are going to have to use some form of interface. That may connect via USB (such as the OffRoad or they Hydra) or may be a PCI card such as the Pink Faun. This in itself is no guarantee of improvement over the USB input of a DAC; it is simply moving the interface from one location (inside the DAC) to another (in a separate box or into the PC). There is potential for improvement in quality because of a higher quality USB interface, better isolation, etc.

 

None of this is about sound quality; just explaining what i2s is and why its no guarantee of improvement of quality.

 

Thanks for the clear explanation. This is pretty much the information I had come across when looking at this online..that i2s might be better but might not. Like anything else it probably boils down to the strength of the design. This is why I was looking for some anecdotal evidence. As this seems like a the road less traveled I guess that I was hoping to find some undiscovered gold along the way :-)

 

The Pink Faun looks good in theory as it eliminates USB conversion entirely but the Hydra has some real write-ups that describe an audible improvement over USB, at least in those systems. The Pink Faun also needs a PCI slot which for some PC cases might be an issue. The Hydra also has multiple inputs making it more versatile.

 

Hope springs eternal...


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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The Pink Faun looks good... but we can only dream about DSD with this card, because that company not DSD supporter.

 

"Q: Can I play DSD and DoP with the Pink Faun I2S-bridge?

A: We think DSD is just another (we hope last) marketing trick of some companies in the audio

branch. Trying to get some money out of a format which didn't make it in the first place. Being

special in different way, instead of making better equipment."

 

I2S Bridge

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.

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I've also looked down this path for a long time and I have the PS Audio PWD MkII, which of course also has I2s. I'm currently feeding it via a laptop with one of those Swiss Army USB DDCs, the Gustard U12. I like it.

 

Some food for thought, after I bought the PWD MkII 2 years ago I talked with Jord for a while and found that the card uses Windows native HD audio driver, not ASIO or Wasapi, which in my opinion is a serious restriction. After another forumite and I started badgering him about, and probably others, he got in contact with Thesycon about developing specific drivers for the bridge (Thesycon don't only do amazing USB drivers, by the way).

 

That was more than 6 months ago and I haven't heard of any further updates, but I think if more people could get to emailing Jord about that and show that there's a genuine interest in this card with those proprietary drivers, it would help. If they did that we'd all benefit with having one hell of an option on the market. I'd certainly pull the trigger, and my damn full size PCs can't even turn on right now...

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The Pink Faun card offers some possible advantages by being more closely coupled to the processor via PCIe rather than being a further step removed via USB. However remember that we have gone from SPDIF via PCI(e) cards partly for the very valid reason of removing the controller from the electrically noisy environment of a PC case. Most people have found USB to SPDIF devices superior for this reason.

 

At the end of the day there are many ways to achieve computer to DAC interface; and in the real world all require compromises to some extent.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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As far as build goes, I'd follow the v4 Pipeline style also. I personally modified that build slightly, but it's in line.

 

And for I2s sound, I liked the U12 I2s more than the native USB on the PWD MkII, but that's also bringing the quality of the converter into play. Other guys on this track say the Tanly USB DDC does even better I2s, and it's only about ~$600 to the U.S.

 

There's basically a meta thread on USB DDCs over on head-fi called something like "Gustard U12 - XMOS...". It's long now, but has shit loads of details on this I2s topic. The other good one to check is the "Audio-gd Master 7 R2R DAC..." thread on head-fi as it got a replacement input board done in I2s and after that lots of guys jumped on it. They discuss the sound changes/improvements and what sources they've used and preferred to get the I2s signal.

 

There are also options with getting I2s via an Amenaro USB board. A few guys I've read about tried the XMOS style USB->I2s and then the Amenaro USB->I2s and preferred the latter quite a bit. Just trying to name another option to the Pink Faun card, but you could try a great PCIe USB card out to the Amenaro board, then LVDS I2s from there.

 

I'm totally on the I2s ship, but until Pink Faun gets a set of native drivers in ASIO and/or wasapi I'll be sticking to USB DDCs. Unless someone gives me a PF I2s Bridge card ;-)

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The Amanero outputs conventional (single ended) i2s, not LVDS i2s.

And Amanero is not restricted to 192kHz like Pink Faun.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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The Amanero outputs conventional (single ended) i2s, not LVDS i2s.

 

There's more than 1 version of the Amanero though, isn't there? I was pretty sure I saw an LVDS version in the Melodious MX-U8 thread over on head-fi. The OP arbatels said he is planning on building a single I2s output USB DDC, and I gathered it was LVDS style. I'm not basing that on anything though.

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