The Computer Audiophile Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi Guys - I'm working on an article about converting DSD content to PCM offline and comparing the sound quality of the different converters against each other and against the original DSD files. I'm not advocating converting or not converting, but I'm guessing there is going to be a larger need for this offline conversion because some new PCM only DACs are scheduled to hit the market soon. Question: What DSD to PCM offline conversion software should be considered in this article? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Jud Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Offline, eh? I guess there are Korg Audiogate (availability now limited), JRiver, and the offline converter I use (in the other direction, though), Audiophile Inventory (the PROduce-RD version is what I've got). I'm sure there are plenty of others. Question: Why exclude inline conversion, or are you looking at that separately? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Offline, eh? I guess there are Korg Audiogate (availability now limited), JRiver, and the offline converter I use (in the other direction, though), Audiophile Inventory (the PROduce-RD version is what I've got). I'm sure there are plenty of others. Question: Why exclude inline conversion, or are you looking at that separately? Hi Jud - I'm currently looking at JRiver, Weiss Saracon, and Ponophile as offline converters. I know there are many more and I want to make sure I consider as many as possible. Conversion at time of playback is a topic for another article. Funny though, doing conversion on the fly is what got me thinking more about the quality of conversion software. I was testing an unnamed app's ability to convert DSD to PCM during playback and noticed it sounded significantly better than my offline conversions. Anyway, that's for another article (at least that's how it's planned in my head right now). Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
fritzg Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks for the article! I just asked this question in the forum yesterday. Glad to hear you're working on it! Link to comment
firedog Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 dbpoweramp now has a codec that will allow you to convert DSD to wav or flac Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
bogi Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 foobar2000 with foo_input_sacd using the built-in foobar2000 Converter. You can right-click selected items in a playlist and choose Convert using the same interface as for example if you convert WAV to FLAC. In Preferences > SACD you can set DSD2PCM Mode including installable filter (Installable FIR), some filters are included in foo_input_sacd distribution. i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
Melvin Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 DSD Master is another (MAC). I preferred the resulting sound quality when compared to Audiogate conversions. DSD Master Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 dbpoweramp now has a codec that will allow you to convert DSD to wav or flac Hi firedog - I'm looking into dBpoweramp for this right now and it appears that it will convert DSD into a DoP file rather than a straight PCM file. Is this correct? https://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-dsd-dff-dsf-sacd.htm Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
ted_b Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 No, DBPoweramp converts DSF to PCM. If wav, then you set bit depth and sample rate; if FLAC then (at least with my system) it converts to 24/352.8k. Played back they are PCM files. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 No, DBPoweramp converts DSF to PCM. If wav, then you set bit depth and sample rate; if FLAC then (at least with my system) it converts to 24/352.8k. Played back they are PCM files. Cool, thanks Ted. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
ted_b Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Cool, thanks Ted. I should add that the DoP containerizing is indeed an option under advanced options in the DBPoweramp config tab, but left alone the DSF files are simply converted to PCM. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Blizzard Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 DSDmaster is good. Not as good as DSD but close. The higher the DSD rate, the less is lost. I've found conversion to 24/352.8 to yield the best results. Link to comment
orgel Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 This one (for OS X) will extract tracks from DSD iso's directly to PCM formats (in addition to DSF, etc.), and the PCM results are quite good, IMO: TRAX Audio SACD Extractor Recent versions of XLD can also extract tracks from DSD iso's directly to PCM formats. I find this convenient for making AAC versions that I use for playback on my iOS devices. --David Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details) Office: Mac Pro > AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305 Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5 Link to comment
DMM Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 SoX 14.4.2SoX - Sound eXchange | HomePage SoX really allows conversion? What is the command line? I have understood that it is only possible with dsd2pcm pipe (Link) ... In the latter program is based dBpoweramp converter [...] "Do fathers always know more than sons?" and the father said, "yes". The next question was, "Daddy, who invented the steam engine?" and the father said, "James Watt." And then the son came back with "- but why didn't James Watt's father invent it?" Gregory Bateson Steps to an Ecology of Mind (...) Link to comment
bogi Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 SoX is able to perform command line PCM format conversion but I didn't find any mention about DSD support. i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
fritzg Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 How's the article coming, Chris? Can't wait to hear your impressions/comparisons. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 How's the article coming, Chris? Can't wait to hear your impressions/comparisons. Slowly but surely:~) Presenting at LA / Orange County audio event this weekend, so research is on hold right now. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Russell_L Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 DSD Master is another (MAC). I preferred the resulting sound quality when compared to Audiogate conversions. DSD Master Another vote for DSD Master, which I used extensively until I got a DSD-capable DAC. The blog by the author makes for interesting reading as well. MacBook Pro 2021 16” (M1 Pro, 16MB RAM, macOS Ventura) > Audirvana Origin > Pangea Audio USB-AG > Sony TA-ZH1ES > Nordost Heimdall 2 > Audeze LCD-3 Link to comment
Bill Lord Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Another vote for DSD Master, which I used extensively until I got a DSD-capable DAC. The blog by the author makes for interesting reading as well. +1 I have it my feed reader, I enjoy the Bitperfect Blog. There was some back and forth between Richard and Mark Waldrep / John Siau over DSD and PCM. Start: BitPerfect: On DSD vs PCM … again Part I: Not So Bit Perfect About DSD vs. PCM? | Real HD-Audio Part II: Not So Bit Perfect About DSD vs. PCM? Part II | Real HD-Audio Part III: Not So Bit Perfect About DSD vs. PCM? Part III | Real HD-Audio Part IV: Not So Bit Perfect About DSD vs. PCM? Part IV | Real HD-Audio Part V: Not So Bit Perfect About DSD vs. PCM? Finale | Real HD-Audio Then to compliment this back and forth AND this discussion of DSD to PCM. Archimago's blog is good. Archimago's Musings: ANALYSIS: DSD Conversion Impulse & Spectral Display... Another few images for completeness! I really don't know what to do at this point because of the referenced links above. I'd just like to know what is the best/recommended way to do DSD to PCM and is it transparent. I look forward to CA's coverage on this topic. What am I listening to? http://www.last.fm/user/o0obillo0o Link to comment
dtc Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 One topic that does not get discussed much is the filter needed to filter out the high frequency noise when converting from DSD to PCM. Some converters discuss this issue and allow for different filters and some don't. Let me use JRiver as an example, because it is the one I am most familiar with. It has a default low pass filter at 24 KHz with a slope of 48dB/octave. This is an aggressive filter and starts just above the 20 KHz audible limit. Some people, especially those using 176/192 or above or 2X DSD may find that this filter starts at too low a frequency. JRiver therefore offers filters starting at 30 KHz and 50 KHz, but with only a 24 dB/octave slope. This lower slope still allows some high frequency noise through at higher freqencies comparted to the 48 dB/octave slope of the default filter. You can also bypass the standard filters and use the JRiver DSP studio to set your own filter. I use a 60 KHz filter with a a 48dB/octave slope. This allows higher frequency frequencies through, while cutting out the very high frequency noise. I believe Weiss uses a filter similar to the JRiver default. DSD Master uses difference filters depending on the PCM sample rate. They discuss this on their blogspot (although I cannot currently find it). They use one filter for 44/48 KHz, one for 88/96 and another one for 176/192/352/384. There is a discussion of filtering in DSD2PCM here : Archimago's Musings: ANALYSIS: DSD-to-PCM 2015 - foobar SACD Plug-In, AuI ConverteR, noise & impulse response... Obviously, this is a complicated topic and people have different views on the advantage of having frequencies greater than 20 KHz. I just want to point out that the low pass filter for each converter should be considered. And, you certainly want to be sure the tool you are using has one. You can try your own conversions and look at the results. I use a little free program called SPEK for a quick look at the frequency spectrum. Also, Vinyl Studio has a nice frequency plot, which shows you spectrum for a full track. Here is a quick example of a 192 KHz file with no low pass filter and with a 60 KHz 48 dB/octave filter. Link to comment
audiventory Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If DSD low frequency filter start transient band upper 20 kHz, the filter pass additional inaudible noise too. More band or slope filter - more noise and: - appear possibility of infiltration/shifting ultrasound noise to audible range due non-linear distortions of analog part of apparatus; - dynamical range is decreased for useful signal. I.e. we don't listen ultrasound, but maximal loudness of audible part of music is more limited. For DSD it is more important than for PCM due significant ultrasound noise level. Other hand more slope filter give less ringing artefacts. As usual need compromise decission. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
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