NOS DAC sound more natural

[Kimo]

Finally got to audition a new NOS DAC using 1704Ks. It is a good one. Not rolled off, slow, or thick.

 

Has that extra bit of body and tone. How noticeable a difference as compared with the up/over sampling DACS in house comes down to what is playing at the time, but it is consistent. It does sound a bit more natural.

 

Can someone tell me what this extra tone is made of? Is it a result of distortion, or superior processing? Are the other DACs imparting their own sound through the upsampling and oversampling at work? Is the NOS DAC more accurate? The sound difference sort of reminds me of a tubes/solid state kind of thing, but not exactly. I don't recall hearing this type of tone from any other DAC that I have had in the system.

[BobP63]

I too find my NOS DAC to be more natural sounding and thus more enjoyable to listen to. Unfortunately this simple fact, i.e. listening enjoyment, seems to get derailed rather fast when bringing up the topic of NOS DAC's. It usually isn't long before someone starts giving technical reasons why you shouldn't enjoy what you're hearing ;-)

[Kimo]

I too find my NOS DAC to be more natural sounding and thus more enjoyable to listen to. Unfortunately this simple fact, i.e. listening enjoyment, seems to get derailed rather fast when bringing up the topic of NOS DAC's. It usually isn't long before someone starts giving technical reasons why you shouldn't enjoy what you're hearing ;-)

 

I would be curious to see a critical analysis of the technical failures found here.

 

LA SCALA MKII precision R2R dac DFD decoder

 

Are still running the Pass gear? I actually moved on to separates.

[groovybassist]

I'm in the NOS camp as well (Mojo Audio Mystique).

[mmerrill99]

I too find my NOS DAC to be more natural sounding and thus more enjoyable to listen to. Unfortunately this simple fact, i.e. listening enjoyment, seems to get derailed rather fast when bringing up the topic of NOS DAC's. It usually isn't long before someone starts giving technical reasons why you shouldn't enjoy what you're hearing ;-)

They'll be along in a minute - they're just tied up on another thread telling people what to hear

[esimms86]

You folks should check out the Phasure forum(XXHighEnd - Index) and post your question there. I have a Phasure NOS1A and it's spectacular.

[Melvin]

Careful boys! Your Audiophile Club cards will be revoked if this continues ..

[Kimo]

NOS DAC is ancient story and these story was ended with software upsampling

 

The DAC I am talking about does 24 bits, so how does this make any sense?

[gldgate]

I think a NOS DAC can be helpful, but everything is system dependent. My system has a tubed preamp and amp. I purchased a Metrum but preferred my (sabre based) Eastern Electric with discrete opamps. The sabre DAC provided more clarity without sounding the least bit harsh. I imagine some folks with solid state electronics may prefer a NOS DAC instead. One thing I've learned is you rarely can speak in generalities when it comes to audio playback. Existing equipment, room, and power all can influence end result. Trust your ears.

[ilok]

Oversampling is lossy, turns out it's impossible to modify audio via lossless methods, so any change, oversample/downsample/EQ/crossover are all lossy.

[accwai]

Oversampling is lossy, turns out it's impossible to modify audio via lossless methods, so any change, oversample/downsample/EQ/crossover are all lossy.

 

I thought the concept of lossy/losslessness is only meaningful when you want the original digital stream back. In the case of upsampling/oversampling, you want the output to be better than the original, and then you turn that into analog signal in some way. You're not getting the original stream back...

 

Finally got to audition a new NOS DAC using 1704Ks. It is a good one. Not rolled off, slow, or thick.

 

Has that extra bit of body and tone. [...] It does sound a bit more natural. [...] Can someone tell me what this extra tone is made of? [...]

 

There are a number of yeas and nays in the thread now but still no answer to the origin question. Any taker?

[firedog]

I thought the concept of lossy/losslessness is only meaningful when you want the original digital stream back. In the case of upsampling/oversampling, you want the output to be better than the original, and then you turn that into analog signal in some way. You're not getting the original stream back...

 

 

 

There are a number of yeas and nays in the thread now but still no answer to the origin question. Any taker?

 

Like everything else in audio - it's taste and system dependent. What one listener perceives as more natural and musical and "not rolled off" - another perceives as, yes, rolled off and slow. Or some other negative. And one DAC could sound like the first in one setup, and like the second in another.

But if you've found a DAC(s) you like - then great. Enjoy.

[Melvin]

I've read a number of times NOS DACs are accurate/perfect in the time domain which is the reason some people find them so natural sounding. This thread from a couple of years ago might be of interest (the posts starting at #20 from PeterSt are particularly interesting):

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/should-i-nos-digital-analogue-converter-14869/

[Kimo]

There are a number of yeas and nays in the thread now but still no answer to the origin question. Any taker?

 

I probably was not as clear as I could have been in my description. By tone and body, I don't mean to imply that the presentation is darker and more rounded. Actually, it is the opposite. The midrange is snappier, airier, and more lively. The thwack of a stick on a drum is more complete front to back. Horns are not so muted. The bass notes are neither fuller or leaner, but rather more complete. Piano's are livelier and a bigger.

 

By contrast, oversampling DACs can sound a bit muted or veiled. To reiterate, this isn't always greatly noticeable, depending on the material on hand. On a tune such as "The Queen is Dead," Moz's vocals breath much better, and this can't be missed.

 

I can't say that this difference is worth the price of admission, necessarily, but it is there and consistent. Sort of like the difference that I hear with 16 vs. 24 bits.

[michaelg]

Finally got to audition a new NOS DAC using 1704Ks. It is a good one. Not rolled off, slow, or thick.

 

Has that extra bit of body and tone. How noticeable a difference as compared with the up/over sampling DACS in house comes down to what is playing at the time, but it is consistent. It does sound a bit more natural.

 

Can someone tell me what this extra tone is made of? Is it a result of distortion, or superior processing? Are the other DACs imparting their own sound through the upsampling and oversampling at work? Is the NOS DAC more accurate? The sound difference sort of reminds me of a tubes/solid state kind of thing, but not exactly. I don't recall hearing this type of tone from any other DAC that I have had in the system.

 

NOS DACs are like the bumblebees that are not supposed to be able to fly. The only signals they're able to reproduce correctly are square waves and short-lived vertical pulses. Sine waves are reproduced as staircase-waves which give some "interesting" non-harmonical distortion. This is one reason some people love to hate them. I don't how many of the NOS-sceptical camp have actually heard one. Apart from that, taste is a personal thing, some describe NOS-DACs as more vinyl-like in their sound which touches another standing discussion. I actually read somewhere about a guy who had retired his large LP collection after having bought a NOS DAC.

 

To try to give my answer to your question, I think the extra tone is made of those distortion products. I myself - being a Metrum owner - tend to the NOS camp, I like the extra body you mention and find some non-OS DACs, including the Audiolab MDAC2 I owned for a while, thin sounding.

[accwai]

I probably was not as clear as I could have been in my description. By tone and body, I don't mean to imply that the presentation is darker and more rounded. Actually, it is the opposite. The midrange is snappier, airier, and more lively. The thwack of a stick on a drum is more complete front to back. Horns are not so muted. The bass notes are neither fuller or leaner, but rather more complete. Piano's are livelier and a bigger.

 

That's called tone density I think.

 

By contrast, oversampling DACs can sound a bit muted or veiled.

 

That's my experience as well. I once had a chance to compare a Metrum Hex to a Berkeley Alpha DAC 2 head to head on a system that's more or less the same as mine. The terms rolled off, slow, muted or veiled never once came to mind w.r.t. the Metrum. And if you go beyond the level of the Hex, the speed and dynamics can become rather staggering. It's like all the inhibitions in the DAC is removed. It can beat you up with a sledgehammer whenever it feels like. Kind of like my wife To me, anything less is not natural...

[Panelhead]

Software up sampling has leveled the field. The filter less or under filtered output is not an issue when fed 88.2 or 176.4k data.

The boutique models that are R2R ladder can sound exceptional. Even the early chips that had "trimmers" to increase linearity can sound great.

But do not sell the oversampling chips short. They also can be incredible. And are so much easier to build. The resistors required to get even 18 bit performance from a R2R ladder dac cost as much as a handful of Sabre or AD chips.

We are lucky, lots of great options. Too many considering the market size for multi thousand dollar dacs.

[ilok]

But the reason NOS sounds more natural: read http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/Design%20Philosophy%20Metrum%20Acoustics.pdf

 

Just look at the waveform.

[groovybassist]

I'm not familiar with all AD chips, but the 1865N-K used in my DAC is an R2R ladder chip.

[Kimo]

Software up sampling has leveled the field. The filter less or under filtered output is not an issue when fed 88.2 or 176.4k data. The boutique models that are R2R ladder can sound exceptional. Even the early chips that had "trimmers" to increase linearity can sound great.

 

The DAC that I am auditioning could be classified as a boutique R2R model. 1704s and 24/192. Lively and enjoyable sound, whether due to better performance, or a bit of fortunate coloration. The admission price is quite high, however. Especially as compared with the high end blu ray player that has served for some of the testing.

[accwai]

[...] The admission price is quite high, however. Especially as compared with the high end blu ray player that has served for some of the testing.

 

Are you comparing analog out of a Blu-ray player against the La Scala MkII? Blu-ray player can really get to this level? What model is that? Or are you using the player as a transport?

 

Very interesting R2R discrete ladder dac for DIY. It's programmable (you can play with tweaking for years). Can work in NOS mode

Anyone tried these ?

dam1021 Product Range - *NEW* - Audio Products - Products

 

That's the type of architecture used in Totaldac. Interesting

[Melvin]

But the reason NOS sounds more natural: read http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/Design%20Philosophy%20Metrum%20Acoustics.pdf

 

Just look at the waveform.

 

Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[Kimo]

Are you comparing analog out of a Blu-ray player against the La Scala MkII? Blu-ray player can really get to this level? What model is that? Or are you using the player as a transport?

 

Marantz UD7007 via coaxial cable running both balanced and single ended. Interestingly, differences are more pronounced when running balanced. Also, ran a Marantz SA14s1,which shines with CD. No balanced output here.

 

The Pass XP20/30.8 combo works best running truly balanced, so no surprised here.

 

For what it is worth, I am finally done buying equipment as upgrades. I am not even going to audition. Everything I have upgraded recently has sounded better than what came before, and cost more cash. No AB amps, no push/pull tube amps, no expensive disc spinners, no power conditioning.

[Miska]

Oversampling is lossy, turns out it's impossible to modify audio via lossless methods, so any change, oversample/downsample/EQ/crossover are all lossy.

 

Now the question is, how do you find recordings that have not been made using oversampling ADC?

[ilok]

Now the question is, how do you find recordings that have not been made using oversampling ADC?

 

I actually have quite a few hi-res recordings that sound worse than their 44.1khz counter part. We live in the digital dark ages...