Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 In this thread I'd like to focus on only the roller type Vibration Isolation Devices (VID). I'm not a big fan of springs, cones, or squishy things, as I now believe them to only be filters, shifting vibration from frequency to frequency with little real attenuation. I can start another thread for that other stuff if anyone is interested… I believe that the roller type devices are qualitatively different, true isolators rather then just filters. I want to share some information I have collected on existing commercial models and DIY designs, so that we can talk about experiences, sourcing, and compare performance. No head in the clouds theorizing here, please, that is for the other (original) thread. There are a number of specialized commercial companies that serve the high mag. microscope, photo lithography, and laser systems, among other fields, with precision vibration isolation devices and systems. One wonders why they don't create products for high end audio uses, unless the audiophile market is too much of a PITA ? Onward... Link to comment
Mike Gillespie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Symposium Acoustics pioneered in high-end audio, roller block isolation devices. Check their website. Symposium Acoustics Stellar stuff.. Puts virtually all other isolators to shame. MG555 Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 The following is some basic information on commercial audio, and DIY roller type VIDs. I have tried to come up with their approximate costs for a set of 3 VIDs for one piece of Audio Equipment, and a full System Set of 10 or 12 equipment sets. So if anyone is interested in upgrading their systems with these VID's they have a better idea of what it takes. Perhaps we can develop comparative sonic performance info for these different devices as time goes on !!? Feel free to add any missing info, or (roller) products to this list Do It Yourself roller type vibration isolation devices VID's ========================================== Barry, et all, DIY Wooden egg cups, and Marbles - $1-2 per set, $15 per sys. Entry level. Very cheap, does give perceivable benefits, but easily bested, not for heavy equipment. Vibration control for better performance DTA DIY Acrylic/SS BallBlocks - about $12 a set, $125 per sys. Inexpensive and attractive, flexible configurations, handles weight well. I have heard similar SQ benefits as Barry D has, through they may not be as pronounced. I expect some, but don't know the degree of, performance differences between these devices, Hip Joints, Symposium Rollerblocks, and others. Custom bowl machining ie: Barry D's Hip Joints - possibly about $50 a set ($13 in the ex-USSR , $150 -$500 per sys (??) Cost dependent on the vendor one finds - Could use a recommended design and alloy material It might be nice to establish a relationship with a particular shop to supply a small set of custom bowls, designed by agreement of a group like here at CA, could be a little 'open source' project like the Teres turntable. Or, someone's small business product opportunity ? Commercial roller type vibration isolation devices VID's ========================================== Final Laboratory Daruma 3-II Isolation Devices - $100 per set (2001) Simple, "Double Stack", 3 part design, looked like soft aluminum It appears the company is long out of business, so no availability, unless the rare used sale. (Final Lab) First Impression Music (FIM) Model 305 - $220 per set, $2200 per sys 3 part design, large bowl curvature, not sure if top cap has a curvature, 3/8" steel balls. Not much info available. 4est says "made from coated steel instead of aluminum", but I haven't seen verification of that. (Model 305 /3 (Platimum)) Can anyone on the forum provide more detailed info on these devices ?? (TGE/Vistek/AVT) Aurios Inc. Media Isolation Bearings (MIB) - $300 per set (pronounced 'oreos', like the cookie) MIB - 3" dia., 3 balls per block, top and bottom curves (TC balls ?) VIB - 100, 320, 410, 450 - (now Newport) - Vib. Iso. Bearing - ball race & spring*) Pro, Pro Max, VIL - no information… Co.'s technology license terminated on December 31, 2012 (bought by a competitor), liquidated inventory - Out of business - "This Product is no longer available" - Acoustic Sounds. business history link: AURIOS INC. - 10-K - 20130415 - BUSINESS "The oscillating motion of the ball bearings have no "natural" frequency, therefore the resonance between the two halves of the isolation plane become physically impossible. As a result, the isolator filters out a broad band of input vibration frequencies and insures a constant level of vibration transmission reduction." SoundStage! The Y-Files - Audible Oreos -- Sonic Sugar? (7/2000) (wordy, but interesting review, some excerpts below) "Balls of undisclosed composition ride inside a thin retaining plastic wafer that connects two circular precision-machined steel plates with elevated, minimum-contact rims facing outwards. The three wafers are held together by a central screw. This screw is pre-tightened to guarantee proper freedom of motion for the balls that travel inside a slightly conical raceway. The profile of this raceway creates a self-centering effect -- if the bearing is level, it always aligns itself after lateral motion subsides… this device relies on precision-tooling and first-rate components to create the load-bearing capability, virtual indestructibility and mirror-polishing which insures that the inside tread spacing for the balls… smooth and free of friction… a set of three Aurios could support up to 1000 pounds?" "It offers 1/10" of lateral freedom in a circular horizontal plane to address the main area of micro-vibrational impact. What we have here then is a device that is minimally coupled to its support structure below, producing about 90% de-coupling/isolation versus 10% coupling/damping." "Craig Goff’s expertise… resulted in the "Aurios Project", which is a direct outgrowth of Vistek’s existing research and products. "Now that I’ve heard the results, I’m convinced that de-coupling rather than coupling is where it’s at!" ** ...Srajan Ebaen * combines balls and spring to handle 6 degrees of freedom (horizontal & vertical), diff. springs/models for diff. weight ranges ** I very much agree Symposium Acoustics Rollerblocks - $200, $360, $540 a set, $2K - $5K per sys (company principle: Steve Bruzonsky, AZ) - Symposium Acoustics: Rollerblock Systems Jr. - round anodized alu blocks, both top and bottom with what looks like a large curvature (shallow) bowls and a safety ring. (1.875" x 5/8"), SS or TC balls "This dual cup or "Double Stack" variation is a Symposium invention" Series 2 - rectangular anodized alu block, polished bowl surface ***, looks like a moderate curvature, (2" x 1" x .75"), 1/2" TC ball, no top parts There are some very high precision Tungsten Carbide (TC) balls available, with G3, G10, G25 being accurate to 3, 10, and 25 millionths of an inch, respectfully. This is concentricity, the amount of deviation from a perfect sphere. The marketing pitch for the TC balls is about the extreme hardness of the material, but then I notice that they all have very accurate concentricity too. So I wonder which is the more important measure here ? *** polished to 6 microns - about .000234", 2.3 ten thousands of an inch. Still pretty far from ball tolerances. Link to comment
coot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have a set of FIM 305's under my Ohm 5000 speakers. They replaced Mapleshade brass footers. The improvement was more dramatic than anything else I have done to my system wrt clarity and focus. Link to comment
coot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 If anyone has these I'd like to know your opinion as they are claimed to be better than Stillpoints(!) Mad Scientist Audio :: Footers Thinking about putting them under my DAC. Link to comment
rocl444 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 i have just purchased, as in 5 minutes ago, a set of upright piano casters made from hard plastic, and some 16mm steel balls. i thought that being made to support a piano, they would be stronger and maybe harder. i have also done a search for metal ones, but only came up with some very flat bottomed brass ones. is brass a bit soft? Link to comment
esldude Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Okay trying to abide by your thread instructions. I do wish to point out, properly done springs and some similar devices will isolate a component to vibrations above a certain resonant frequency. Lots of use of this spring, damper and mass idea for vibration isolation in a myriad of places. Comes down to tuning to the frequencies you care about. You may remember alfe explaining how DVD players ended up isolating the disc from some vibrations, but accidentally becoming excellent seismic detectors. Some years ago I did some experimentation with roller type isolation devices. Very basic DIY stuff. Tested by placing a cup of water on the component and watching the waves in the cup to see if such devices reduced the waves produced in the cup when the stand was tapped or when loud music was played. The devices do alter that. Never pursued it to any important conclusion. Nor developed a good model for what they do in my mind. All I came up with is they are really acting as a very long radius, low friction pendulum. As such, though not obvious, they would also have a tuning to the whole system. Absorbers are about the only isolation that will not be tuned with their own range of response to vibration input. They will absorb vibration by turning it into heat. Most systems will do some of both. Sorry, I guess I have gotten too theoretical for your instructions. If you wish, I won't post further. Just thought it worth pointing out, unless all you really want is a list of companies that make this type product. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 This are meant to quickly stop vibration in telescopes. Something that is always a sore point when doing astro-photography or using high magnification. 3 for $49. I would say you could drop a steel ball in the middle of each one and plop your component on top. Meade #895 Vibration Isolation Pad, set of 3 Or these for $39. Celestron Vibration Suppression Pads 93503 B&H Photo Video Or these for $29. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1094079-REG/ioptron_8433_vibration_suppression_pads_set_3.html No question these work. You can read the reviews, and if viewing a telescope it is obvious how much more quickly the image steadies after you refocus or move the mount. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Another vibration pad idea, one I haven't tried. I have at times used a platform sitting on sand in a box. The platform not connected to the box. That works very well. Non-resonant too. But sand is so messy. I abandoned that long ago. Thinking about it, I do believe memory foam would essentially work like sand only less mass and less mess. It settles down, conforms to the shape, and would absorb vibration as heat. Unlike most other foams it isn't springy when loaded. It only springs back to shape from air getting in between cells when the load is removed. Might be a great way to get the benefits of sand without sand. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 cheap upgrade: telescope tripod's vibration suppression pads - Vinyl Engine At least one report the telescope vibration pads are very good underneath a turntable. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Okay trying to abide by your thread instructions. Liar I do wish to point out, properly done springs and some similar devices...... they are really acting as a very long radius, low friction pendulum... Sorry, I guess I have gotten too theoretical for your instructions. OT, where the hell did that come from ? OT If you wish, I won't post further. And then 3 more, clearly off topic posts OK, you have left your droppings on my thread. Now you can go somewhere else and pollute some other threads with your drivel. P.S Sorry folks, I'm not normally like this, but... I was quite clear at the outset, and even in the thread title. Too clear to put up with this ^%#^ Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have a set of FIM 305's under my Ohm 5000 speakers. They replaced Mapleshade brass footers. The improvement was more dramatic than anything else I have done to my system wrt clarity and focus. Coot, Can you describe one of the 305's in more detail then I had ? Like what are their dimensions, does the top cap have a curvature, what material are they made of ? If anyone has these I'd like to know your opinion as they are claimed to be better than Stillpoints(!)Mad Scientist Audio :: Footers While they do have a ball, it is embedded in the support (like Herbies IsoCup and Audio Prism IsoBearings), and therefore not a roller type isolator, so a subject for another thread. And, I don't have any opinion on their performance. Link to comment
esldude Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 10-4, over and out. Won't put any sanity in your thread. GFYS. Dumba$$audio. I gave you useful information from using vibrational control and damping devices from my own personal experience. No use to someone like you though. Oh no, not someone like you. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Custom bowl machining ie: Barry D's Hip Joints - possibly about $50 a set ($13 in the ex-USSR , $150 -$500 per sys (??) Cost dependent on the vendor one finds - Could use a recommended design and alloy material It might be nice to establish a relationship with a particular shop to supply a small set of custom bowls, designed by agreement of a group like here at CA, could be a little 'open source' project like the Teres turntable. Or, someone's small business product opportunity ? Costs from "ex-USSR" (btw, it's Ukraine, we are trying hard to get away from today's USSR=Russia as far as we can) is sourced from me, I guess. It was not the best possible alu (Soviet marking closer to 6061 than to 7075), and, probably not the best work, I did additional polishing myself. Good thread, I will be glad to know more from other's experiences. And I would be interested to participate in group effort. Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Won't put any sanity in your thread. The very first post in this thread stated it was to be about roller type devices ONLY. It says that in the thread title TOO. If you can not read and understand those simple things, your claims of 'sanity' and 'truth' are worthless ! Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Costs from "ex-USSR" (btw, it's Ukraine, we are trying hard to get away from today's USSR=Russia as far as we can) is sourced from me, What is your first name ? Yes I know you are in the Ukraine*. I was just pulling your leg a little I think you are saying that you machined the bowl blocks yourself ? If so how did you do that ? A lathe, mill, or some other tool ? * P.S. It's my impression that all the trouble over there was caused by the US and NATO messing around in Russia's back yard. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Costs from "ex-USSR" (btw, it's Ukraine, we are trying hard to get away from today's USSR=Russia as far as we can) is sourced from me, I guess. It was not the best possible alu (Soviet marking closer to 6061 than to 7075), and, probably not the best work, I did additional polishing myself. Good thread, I will be glad to know more from other's experiences. And I would be interested to participate in group effort. I am using some double concave glass lenses which are cheap (John Swenson posted a link, actually with shipping included the total price on Amazon is comparable) and don't work too badly with 12mm chrome steel bearings. These are reasonably cheap and I'm using them until better option. I also have ceramic/porcelain dishes on order as well as both Silicon Nitride and Silicon Carbide bearings (12mm). It would be interesting to compare ceramic bowls agains aluminum. I would be interested in a group buy of aluminum bowls. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Speedskater Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Vibration control is all about science and engineering. 'esldude' brings some science and engineering thoughts to this thread. Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Vibration control is all about science and engineering. 'esldude' brings some science and engineering thoughts to this thread. Speed, There is a long standing convention on the CA forum that the Original Poster (OP, thread starter) can set the terms/rules for the thread. I did that clearly, but 'esldude' knowingly and maliciously broke my rules in 4 different posts. There is another thread on Vibration Control, where they would have been appropriate, but not here. He says he brings "science and engineering" to this forum, but if you look at his posting more carefully... well... it is a quite different story Case in point: his description of the cup and ball system as a pendulum something-or-other is way out in left field, and conflicts with discussions with real engineers. Let us move on now, enough damage has been done. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 What is your first name ? Yes I know you are in the Ukraine*. I was just pulling your leg a little I think you are saying that you machined the bowl blocks yourself ? If so how did you do that ? A lathe, mill, or some other tool ? * P.S. It's my impression that all the trouble over there was caused by the US and NATO messing around in Russia's back yard. Nice to hear your country which is the size of France or Germany and population of comparable size named "back yard"... Tell the same to Poland, Baltic countries, Finland... Emperors Russia comes to its end, it brings some convulsions, true. But, enough with politics, if you agree. No, I have no tools to machine bowls. I did design myself based on thorough advisory from Barry. And I did some additional polishing to add more smoothness to concave. Link to comment
YashN Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Case in point: his description of the cup and ball system as a pendulum something-or-other is way out in left field, and conflicts with discussions with real engineers. If you read the texts on seismic isolation, a cup-and-ball really is a form of pendulum. Additionally, he is right about springs managing to do the same thing, provided the parameters are chosen well. Misunderstanding the theory can bring you to choose the wrong solution or wrong implementation. Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623 DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels Link to comment
coot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Daudio, Re #12 above For more info on the FIM product, search for First Impression Music. (Sorry, I could not get a link to work here.) Also: search at Galen Carol Audio where they are sold. They are marked "platinum". Ball size is approx 3/8". Both top and bottom are approx 1.125" diameter. They are intended to mount between wood platforms and have holes to do so if desired. I have them unmounted as I did not want the speakers raised any higher. Hope this helps. -Al Link to comment
tne Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 * P.S. It's my impression that all the trouble over there was caused by the US and NATO messing around in Russia's back yard. So off topic, bruv. It is your thread, and an interesting one, but political discussions should be absent to prevent derailment. Any one used these? Ingress Engineered Products You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star Link to comment
Foggie Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So off topic, bruv. It is your thread, and an interesting one, but political discussions should be absent to prevent derailment. Any one used these? Ingress Engineered Products I have a set. No complaints as to quality and dealings with said "vendor". The only issue is the design parameters don't jive with a larger OD puck, larger bowl OD and shallower bowl curvature and bearing dia that have been discussed at length here. Also I believe the material is 6061. My experience with them (matched with the use of an air bearing), reveals less horiz / rotational movements due, again to its design parameters. Think a more rigid type movement. I have since implemented new rollers/air bearing (throughout my rig + spkrs) along the lines of a much shallower bowl (curvature) and larger dia puck which provides the appropriate "jiggle" No top puck, just bottom puck - bearing - tile Sent from CA app My rig Link to comment
4est Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 If you want a platform ready made:ELpH Lightweight Benchtop Vibration Isolation Systems As to the FIM product, both top and bottom are curved in what appears to be close to Barry's suggestion. The discs are about 1 3/8" in diameter, 5/16" thick with a 15/16"x 5/32" depression. It looks metric, and I am approximating this using a 25' tape. Upon closer inspection, they say:"hardened steel plated copper cups with tungsten carbide balls, and definitely made on a lathe. I almost replied earlier to your inquiry about how they are machined. It is an easy task all done in one set-up. Stock fed through the chuck is faced, then cut off. A pretty easily repeatable CNC task. If you cannot find it in Detroit, I am sure you can here in W Mich. A group buy could get this done rather reasonably is my guess. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
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