AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

[YashN]

Why:

a] High cost

b] Lack of availability.

c] No significant engineering gains.

Just use a one size larger copper item.

 

Only © above is actually engineering-related. (a) and (b) are rather accounting/budget/shipping/marketing/financing/economics related.

 

However, if we want our path to be the lowest impedance, silver would be a good choice, but © makes me ask the question: are there any disadvantages that arise if we start using very large copper items?

[Speedskater]

Having spent decades working in industrial ®&D engineering departments, I can safely say that 'cost' is first and 'availability' is high on the engineering criteria list. The new product engineering review meeting would not go well if solid silver components were involved.

While silver plating does fill some special situation needs, switch contacts are the only place for solid silver that I can think of.

[YashN]

Having spent decades working in industrial ®&D engineering departments, I can safely say that 'cost' is first and 'availability' is high on the engineering criteria list. The new product engineering review meeting would not go well if solid silver components were involved.

While silver plating does fill some special situation needs, switch contacts are the only place for solid silver that I can think of.

 

This is business, but not pure engineering...

 

Cost/accounting being a factor is what made the ground plane and other good things disappear.

 

Now, of course, cost does come into consideration in my practical DIY, but for understanding what the phenomena are, it doesn't for me.

 

Case in point, both Tripoint and Entreq apparently use silver. Miguel, who builds Tripoint devices is adamant about not building a low-cost version.

[YashN]

Almost anything that you buy today and plug into an AC outlet has some sort of power supply (including CFL & LED lights). Any of these power supplies can generate noise. But most of these noise currents are under 100kHz. The noise voltages over 100kHz can be filtered with small capacitors.

 

It would be interesting here to know what are the high frequencies Entreq deals with.

 

I may be missing something in their product: they connect an RCA return to their box. Where is the return path in that case?

[Daudio]

This is business, but not pure engineering...

 

Cost has always been a big part of engineering.

 

Scientists discover that something is possible. The engineers make it affordable and practical.

 

I learned that from my father (an engineer), my uncle (another engineer), in my ME eduction, and have never seen it differently.

[Speedskater]

This is business, but not pure engineering...

Cost/accounting being a factor is what made the ground plane and other good things disappear.

Now I strongly disagree with that idea.

Cost is one of the most important factors in good engineering!

[Speedskater]

Ralph Morrison writes that in some cases, it's better to use galvanized steel rather that copper for ground planes, STGP's or ZSRG's.

 

Why?

a] Lower cost.

b] Easily available.

c] It's robust.

d] Easy to work with and easy to make good joints.

[YashN]

Cost has always been a big part of engineering.

 

No, I am talking about pure engineering, not cost-based compromised engineering so as to understand the phenomena.

 

Let's stick to pure engineering for the time being, thanks.

[YashN]

Now I strongly disagree with that idea.

Cost is one of the most important factors in good engineering!

 

Not for pure engineering. Let's keep cost out of the equation for now, thanks.

[Speedskater]

..............

makes me ask the question:

are there any disadvantages that arise if we start using very large copper items?

We can think of most items involved as two dimensional, the third dimension is mostly for mechanical considerations. Things like handling, joining and screw threading.

 

Ralph Morrison writes about entire computer room floors. But at that large size, it's almost always a grid or mesh. Then he writes about how to make a multi-floor grid.

 

But the disadvantages are:

a] cost

b] size & weight

c] diminishing returns

[Speedskater]

Not for pure engineering. Let's keep cost out of the equation for now, thanks.

Sorry but in the real world good engineering is all about cost!

[Daudio]

Not for pure engineering.

 

I have never heard of such a thing !

 

Where did that phrase come from ??

[4est]

Or cost effectiveness...

Sorry but in the real world good engineering is all about cost!

[YashN]

We can think of most items involved as two dimensional, the third dimension is mostly for mechanical considerations. Things like handling, joining and screw threading.

 

Ralph Morrison writes about entire computer room floors. But at that large size, it's almost always a grid or mesh. Then he writes about how to make a multi-floor grid.

 

But the disadvantages are:

a] cost

b] size & weight

c] diminishing returns

 

I think I might have come across the meshes while skimming a doc, possibly one posted by you before?

 

I'd only consider the mechanical dimension insofar that it affects the domains where the phenomenon is being observed, i.e. the electrical/electronic and auditory ones.

 

As mentioned before, I'll ignore (a) [for now], and possibly © if it's still related to business ROI.

 

I think we got the Tripoint devices function covered and understood, but the Entreq is still slightly mysterious. They purportedly use a mineral + silver mixture internally.

[YashN]

I have never heard of such a thing !

 

Where did that phrase come from ??

 

Haven't I explained this more than once already?

 

This is distracting from the discussion of what these devices could be doing in the domains of physics, electricity, electronics and electro-magnetism, so feel free to debate this elsewhere.

[YashN]

From a thread which rapidly devolved on diyaudio, but referencing another one on Audiogon:

 

"The Entreq Silver Tellus is a wooden box, the size and weight of a small power amp. It contains inert minerals and a grounding plate."

[YashN]

One more thing to note about the Entreq Silver Tellus and products in its line:

 

Once you disconnect the device, you need it to go through its cycles again to maximise the effect, which presumably occurs in audible stages, like 30 mins, 4 hours, 48 hours (the number are just examples here).

 

I forgot in which forum I read that, but it was probably the related thread at WBF.

[YashN]

Here's another thought:

 

Before Speedskater's post about dealing with chassis grounding to clean up the signal, I was viewing these two as completely separate things. That's because the original devices from Tripoint and Entreq specifically were built and recommended for these two things.

 

Furthermore, some users report that they benefit from using both of these (I believe the handle of such a user at WBF is LL21 or something like that - others are in Asia).

 

Now, if indeed we can chassis ground and clean up the signal thanks to our ground lead across all the components, what is the addition of an Entreq box with leads connecting to a free RCA shield actually doing?

 

How does it manage to further clean up the signal? And if it really does that, what is it removing?

[Speedskater]

I think we got the Tripoint devices function covered and understood, but the Entreq is still slightly mysterious. They purportedly use a mineral + silver mixture internally.

If any of these boxes don't contain a block of copper or aluminum or steel or similar, then the only thing that the box is doing is draining your money. And all the connection points/terminals need to have a near zero Ohm resistance from one to another.

 

The story I see behind these boxes is that bad electricity flows into the box and just disappears!

Nothing like that happens in the real world whether it's to a box or to Earth.

 

********************

Back to an earlier question:

A silver item will function exactly the same as a one size larger copper item. Where one size larger is about 107% larger.

[YashN]

If any of these boxes don't contain a block of copper or aluminum or steel or similar

 

The existence of plates of some sort in both is already established.

 

then the only thing that the box is doing is draining your money.

 

Not mine, I haven't bought any of those.

 

And all the connection points/terminals need to have a near zero Ohm resistance from one to another.

 

Could impedance matching be the important thing happening here?

[Speedskater]

Here's another thought:

..........................................................

Now, if indeed we can chassis ground and clean up the signal thanks to our ground lead across all the components, what is the addition of an Entreq box with leads connecting to a free RCA shield actually doing?

Because different manufactures connect RCA jacks to the chassis in many different ways, we can't be sure just what is happening!

(an RCA jack is a chassis connector)

Some 20 years ago, Neil Muncy wrote a paper on the correct way to install any and all chassis connectors. That paper is referred to as the "Pin 1 Problem" paper. But in hi-fi equipment it common to see incorrect RCA jack connections (even see some incorrect XLR jack connections). So we would have to examine on a case-to-case basis to see what they did.

 

How does it manage to further clean up the signal? And if it really does that, what is it removing?

I'm not at all sure that it cleans up the signal. Because in some incorrectly wired RCA jacks, this Entreq lead can act as a great interference antenna. So with this small amount of added background noise the audiophile will hear a real difference. This small background noise is sometimes perceived as added definition or sparkle. And because he just added something, it will be deemed good.

 

Notice that no one would ever put a battery powered O-scope or meter on the speaker terminals and examine the changes.

[Speedskater]

The existence of plates of some sort in both is already established.

Has the connector to connector resistance ever been measured?

 

Not mine, I haven't bought any of those.

Good, let it be someone else's money.

 

Could impedance matching be the important thing happening here?

Your AC power line's source impedance is just a fraction of an Ohm, so the closer to zero Ohms this entire grounding system is, the better.

[jabbr]

If any of these boxes don't contain a block of copper or aluminum or steel or similar, then the only thing that the box is doing is draining your money. And all the connection points/terminals need to have a near zero Ohm resistance from one to another.

 

The story I see behind these boxes is that bad electricity flows into the box and just disappears!

Nothing like that happens in the real world whether it's to a box or to Earth.

 

********************

Back to an earlier question:

A silver item will function exactly the same as a one size larger copper item. Where one size larger is about 107% larger.

 

Well is inductance the same? Also oxidized copper loses resistance while oxidized silver isn't pretty similar so a silver plating can have effects particularly at higher frequencies -- at least that's my understanding.

[Jabs1542]

Here's another thought:

 

Before Speedskater's post about dealing with chassis grounding to clean up the signal, I was viewing these two as completely separate things. That's because the original devices from Tripoint and Entreq specifically were built and recommended for these two things.

 

Furthermore, some users report that they benefit from using both of these (I believe the handle of such a user at WBF is LL21 or something like that - others are in Asia).

 

Now, if indeed we can chassis ground and clean up the signal thanks to our ground lead across all the components, what is the addition of an Entreq box with leads connecting to a free RCA shield actually doing?

 

How does it manage to further clean up the signal? And if it really does that, what is it removing?

 

I use a Granite Audio Ground Zero device for my chasis ground plane, this cleared up noise due to my system's mixture of balanced / unbalanced connections as well as tube / SS devices. Getting to chassis ground can sometimes be a PITA. As an example, my amps have an aluninum casing, therefore I had to open them up to connect to the chassis and then figure out a way to route the wire out.

 

I think the Entreq cables make this easier for the user. From my read of their site, products, and papers you can use their cable and you have a drain wire tapped from the chassis ground. Route all of these to a common grounding plane of some type (magic materials - beware of dragons) and you have a star grounding system for your audio chassis components.

 

I'm not sure how much better one mixture a grounding materials is over another (back to the dragons) but I can say, from personal experience, that going from nothing (i.e. the way components are connected straight out of the box) to something makes an audible difference - lower noise floor, clearer instruments, and decays that fade off into space (i.e. a bell strike).

[Speedskater]

Here are several pages of photos on how one Ham radio operator did his station.

 

W8JI Contest Station

 

***********************************

Note the two 200 foot antenna towers at his place. So lightning was a major concern. Also static buildup before the storm. At the broadcast transmitter, we would see huge arcs across the tower insulators hours before the storm.