Uptone Regen and your DAC. What DAC do you use?

[jtwrace]

Hey Alex, then you saw more of those DACs than I did.

Undoubtedly you saw a NOS1 in there but FYI that is the normal version - not the isolated one.

Not that the isolated (NOS1a) will not show a difference with your Regen; I am pretty sure it will - I even think more so.

yup

 

Peter

 

Perhaps you should buy one from here and do your own testing. :-)

[Superdad]

And that started with the realisation that a standard Mac Mini had vastly improved SQ capabilities when powered via a decent linear PSU, and fan electrical noise was reduced markedly by overcoming problems due to PWM fan control.

 

No offense Alex, but I don't know where you got that idea from (though I know you are a supporter of all good PS research).

The JS-2, the MMK, and the REGEN were all separate projects. You have also referred several times to the JS-2 coming into being as an LPS for Macs. John does not even own a Mac, and more that half the JS-2 owners out there don't either. John's choke-filtered PS philosophy dates back ways, and his research into digital techniques has been ongoing. I simply (well not so simply) sponsor, feature-refine, and bring to production the most promising and practical of his many ideas.

 

It is all great fun, and somewhat similar to what I have been doing all my life in audio (there is a story about a 14 year old plunking down $200 on Bob Hovland's garage bench in 1976 and begging him to duplicate a killer discrete high-gain phono stage he built during his spare time as service manager for a high-end dealer--where I had also made a a pest of myself until they hired me).

And with John it is easy because he has depth and breadth to his talents--and the patience to try to explain the wild ideas that are always gestating in his brain. But he makes me feel good since I ask probing questions to which he often pauses and replies: "That's a really good question." Thus we make a team.

[sandyk]

Alex C

The JS2 was clearly marketed primarily for the Mac Mini, even coming with a compatible plug, although John may have foreseen more universal use when he designed it.

I am not surprised though, that others chose to use it for other uses, as it is clearly a cut above the competition ,especially in the performance area, with no ongoing delays for supply of a non finalised design. I am of course well aware of John's use of a large value choke for his high quality replacement PSU for the SBT, and other innovations such as a snubber across the secondary windings of the superior R Core transformers that he prefers to use, despite their additional cost.

IF the JS2 hadn't met with such widespread approval, would there still have been the Regen ?

I suspect that you are more than pleasantly surprised at the rapid acceptance of both products, and the very positive reports from almost every purchaser ?

Kind Regards

Alex

[fmak]

fmak

You are a brave man ! (grin)

The whole USB audio thing is indeed a can of worms and expensive to get right. The original USB audio implementation before Gordon Rankin (mainly) was very mediocre indeed.

Regards

Alex

 

Here is how it goes:

 

Intel DH61DL, 120W on plug dc-dc supply, fed from 12V LPS with large output caps. Two SSDs fed separately

by 2 9V LPSs. iFi USB Power fed from another 9V LPS. Server 2012 minimised for audio. Additional decoupling of

dc-dc rails in PC.

 

Only 1G DDR3 Ram which gives better sound than 2G Ram. Elfidelity PCI-e and Ram filters.

 

Consumes 1.2 to 1.38 A running 192k and DSD uncompressed files.

 

So many small things affect SQ that matters by way of implementation details and software players.

[fmak]

Well, if staying with USB as a transport/input format/protocol (for both market ubiquity reasons and computer OS and app support reasons) one needs to take a step back and examine the tools, chips and techniques available to DAC designers.

 

With varying degrees of skill and success, most competent engineers will make an effort at separating the ground planes of the "dirty" input side of their DAC and the "clean" side. They all choose from a limited range of digital isolators which themselves work on various principles (tiny RF transmitters/receivers, optical couplers, tiny transformers, magneto-resistors, etc.) and decide how many data channels to pay for (some of these chips get pricey). ALL of these isolators themselves add jitter (some of them a lot), so hopefully everyone will reclock with a flip-flop after the isolators.

 

Now where do these galvanic isolators go? Always AFTER the USB processor (be that a pre-designed one like an XMOS, or the DAC firm's own USB core code in an FPGA), which itself is, in most all instances fronted by a USB PHY chip. Those PHYs are nasty, complicated little buggers, in charge of extracting the data bits from the noise of the analog voltage coming in, and they are filled with PLLs, overlapping phase clocking, and all sorts of crap that have nothing to do with audio USB. (There is no such thing as an "audiophile PHY")

 

Anyway, back to the isolation attempts: Sure, galvanic isolation to separate the ground planes helps keep directly generated ground plane noise modulation out of the "clean" side, and if done well with truly separate power supplies might actually keep that stuff from affecting the master clock (assuming the added jitter of the USB processor, isolators, and flip-flops is not too bad).

But what of the data itself? The signal--and whatever effects the USB processor, PHY, USB cable, etc. had on it--goes right on through those isolators. It has to or we would not have data to feed the DAC side. I'm not an engineer and I'm not explaining it entirely accurately, but John has been looking at what happens at the master clock and how stuff way upstream gets through and affects it. That's how and why the REGEN was born.

 

 

As to the suggestion of building a REGEN circuit into a DAC to feed its USB input:

Well, first remember that the REGEN is not magic, it is just a chosen USB hub chip fed by a good clock, a really great regulator, and a careful power network (John's "hierarchy of charge" philosophy)--and done with a 4-layer board with a lot of attention paid to impedance matching. (We are trying to get set up to do an eye-pattern on its output; anyone have a 3GHz scope they can loan us?) It works because it gives the PHY and USB processor a better signal so that those chips don't have to work as hard, which in turn generates less bursty current spikes, noise and "packet-noise" (sometimes referred to as "logic induced modulation").

 

So yes, one could stick a REGEN board inside a DAC. Of course you would still need/want to feed it with a completely separate power supply--otherwise you defeat a lot of the benefits.

 

 

But for the future? We would love to move beyond USB altogether and leave behind 80% of the above issues. Certainly I2S goes a little way towards that, but it is fragile and really not meant for external use (though LVDS helps). But to really do I2S right, one needs to feed the master clock back to the source side, and almost nobody is doing that.

John and I have discussed some more radical solutions, but in the real world acceptance of new standards is VERY difficult to accomplish--and one always comes back to software support as well.

 

Ethernet, if one can avoid both DLNA and full OS/processor requirements at the DAC end could be a good thing as well. John and I have been working on a USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge solution for OEMs for some time, but some USB is still involved in that, and I admit to recently becoming curious about the non-DLNA AES67/Ravenna, and what hardware is required inside the DAC.

 

I've rambled on long enough and need to get back to work.

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. Of course someone could design a highly optimized, low power computer with really great USB output. And I don't mean with commercially available boards...

 

 

How about dropping the 'not invented here' mindset and use sdif with R, L and clock on three 75R cables?

 

dCS pro stuff had sdif2 and sdif3, produced some of the best sounding arrangement backed by by the best waveform integrity I had seen? The Mytek implementation is two cables only and has the 'wrong' 50R bnc sockets plus poor internal wiring!

[Solstice380]

How about dropping the 'not invented here' mindset and use sdif with R, L and clock on three 75R cables?

 

How about starting your own business and seeing if you can make it! Got the chops? Fools go where angels fear to tread. Everybody wants THEIR problem addressed but few address it themselves. LOL tongue in cheek and all that happy horsexxxx!

[hifial]

GENTALMEN!! PLEASE LETS STAY ON TOPIC.

 

If you want to continue bring this to the Regen thread.

 

Thank you.

[Solstice380]

Hey , how about you get off your high horse. You all are starting to sound like a bunch of anti-social nerds with no real life! You all cry like babies. End of rant.

[gsquared]

Anybody with a PS Audio Directstream DAC tried it yet?

 

I listened to Regen on a friend's system who has a PS Audio Directstream and I was blown away! It sounded FAR better than I've ever heard his system before, and I'm very familiar with it. We didn't do any with/without Regen listening tests because we didn't want to remove the Regen even for a minute. No exaggeration! It was pretty magical with the Regen plugged in.

 

Another very interesting thing we found (unrelated to the PS Audio Directstream) was when we tested the TotalDAC D1 USB cable with the Regen the volume dropped by at least 6 db. Technically I'm not sure why this would happen, but when we tested the D1 cable with the Regen, we had to adjust the volume level by at least 6 db. The owner of the system (Brad) preferred the sound his Audioquest cable + Regen compared to the TotalDAC D1 + Regen.

[hifial]

I listened to Regen on a friend's system who has a PS Audio Directstream and I was blown away! It sounded FAR better than I've ever heard his system before, and I'm very familiar with it. We didn't do any with/without Regen listening tests because we didn't want to remove the Regen even for a minute. No exaggeration! It was pretty magical with the Regen plugged in.

 

Another very interesting thing we found (unrelated to the PS Audio Directstream) was when we tested the TotalDAC D1 USB cable with the Regen the volume dropped by at least 6 db. Technically I'm not sure why this would happen, but when we tested the D1 cable with the Regen, we had to adjust the volume level by at least 6 db. The owner of the system (Brad) preferred the sound his Audioquest cable + Regen compared to the TotalDAC D1 + Regen.

 

Couple of questions.

 

1) Did you try the TotalDac D-1 without the Regen and if so did you get the same results in volume drop?

 

2) What Audioquest Cable does he use?

 

By the way I have the TotalDac D-1 and use it with the Regen and can not say I noticed a drop in volume. I am not saying you did not just that I have not noticed it in my system.

If I get the chance I will check it out.

[jtwrace]

I listened to Regen on a friend's system who has a PS Audio Directstream and I was blown away! It sounded FAR better than I've ever heard his system before, and I'm very familiar with it. We didn't do any with/without Regen listening tests because we didn't want to remove the Regen even for a minute. No exaggeration! It was pretty magical with the Regen plugged in.

 

Another very interesting thing we found (unrelated to the PS Audio Directstream) was when we tested the TotalDAC D1 USB cable with the Regen the volume dropped by at least 6 db. Technically I'm not sure why this would happen, but when we tested the D1 cable with the Regen, we had to adjust the volume level by at least 6 db. The owner of the system (Brad) preferred the sound his Audioquest cable + Regen compared to the TotalDAC D1 + Regen.

 

After seeing some objective data on the D1 I certainly wouldn't use it. That's just me though.

[Evo1668]

I too have the TotalDac D1 usb cable and I too never noticed a drop in volume when used with the Regen

[Blake]

After seeing some objective data on the D1 I certainly wouldn't use it. That's just me though.

 

 

Ok, I'll ask..... what objective data are you referencing? Has someone finally cracked the secret code to objectively detemining what sounds accurate with measurements?

[Jud]

Ok, I'll ask..... what objective data are you referencing? Has someone finally cracked the secret code to objectively detemining what sounds accurate with measurements?

 

[bating breath...]

[Blake]

[bating breath...]

 

 

popcorn...

[clipper]

Regen working incredibly well here with:

1) Eastern Electric Minimax Supreme DAC and

2) Eastern Electric Minimax Junior DAC.

I’m finding it hard to listen without the Regen, so on a daily basis I move it between my main system downstairs (Supreme) and my headphone system upstairs (Junior). Really looking forward to having a second Regen, which was ordered right after I heard the first one…

To my ears (and with my systems), the best combination (limited to the cables I have on hand, of course) involves using either a Lightspeed or Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable connecting computer or NAA device to Regen and (relatively) inexpensive Pangea 24 gauge silver USB cable ($99 for 1 meter) connecting Regen to DAC. I'm using the stock power supply but with a different power cable.

I second all the great comments that have been made already about the Regen and can add the following:

1) It’s like you have a really nice turntable but then you went out and obtained an insane phono cartridge. With the Regen in the chain, the transport and DAC just dig deeper, pulling out details and subtle nuances that you didn’t know were there (wiping away layers of grime, as others have said).

2) The Regen has an amazing ability to make sense of complex musical passages.

3) I’m sure I have done more foot tapping the last month with the Regen than I have in the 12 months prior. Great PRAT, as they say…

Because (like most of us, probably) the majority of my music is redbook (16/44.1), I am ecstatic every time advances in digital audio like this (or, for me, the ability to upsample PCM to DSD using HQ Player) are made. I’m ecstatic because it’s more and more clear that the data necessary to give us beautiful and moving music is really there in the 16/44.1 material. Of course high res and DSD are even better with the Regen in the chain.

 

Sometimes the thought crosses my mind that maybe it's not really possible for it to ever sound that much better than this. But I'm sure I'll be proven wrong...

[Adyc]

Regen woks well with Lamp GG. It brings depth and clarity of the very excellent GG. I wonder what kind of improvements will Amber Regen bring. I do hope someone will bring out a kit to support Regen. It places quite a lot of mechanical stress on the DAC USB input.

[xsajohn]

I listened to Regen on a friend's system who has a PS Audio Directstream and I was blown away! It sounded FAR better than I've ever heard his system before, and I'm very familiar with it. We didn't do any with/without Regen listening tests because we didn't want to remove the Regen even for a minute. No exaggeration! It was pretty magical with the Regen plugged in.

 

 

Thanks Gsquared - you just triggered another Regen order! :-)

[gsquared]

Couple of questions.

 

1) Did you try the TotalDac D-1 without the Regen and if so did you get the same results in volume drop?

 

2) What Audioquest Cable does he use?

 

By the way I have the TotalDac D-1 and use it with the Regen and can not say I noticed a drop in volume. I am not saying you did not just that I have not noticed it in my system.

If I get the chance I will check it out.

 

No we didn't try the TotalDAC D1 without the Regen. He might have done this now, but while I was there we did not remove the Regen.

 

The Audioquest cable he has is the Carbon.

 

Yes definitely compare your current setup of the D1 + Regen with the Regen and a different USB cable.

[gsquared]

I too have the TotalDac D1 usb cable and I too never noticed a drop in volume when used with the Regen

 

This only happens when we compared the Regen + Audioquest Carbon vs the Regen + TotalDAC D1. If we weren't doing cable swapping, I don't know that we would notice it either. I think we would have just assumed the lower volume level was the norm. Hard to say.

[Alexis777]

I have the regen amber with msb analog plus analog power, dsd quad usb module.. and the regen.. rules..! :-)

I made also the upgrade for the new updating..

[tranz]

I have the regen amber with msb analog plus analog power, dsd quad usb module.. and the regen.. rules..! :-)

I made also the upgrade for the new updating..

 

Very interesting, so it even improves upon the new Quad module. Looks like they still use the USB 5v as well.

[Superdad]

I have the regen amber with msb analog plus analog power, dsd quad usb module.. and the regen.. rules..! :-)

 

Alexis777 mis-spoke: He only has original REGEN "green", just like everyone else. Just want to avoid confusion here. Carry on.

[Superdad]

Very interesting, so it even improves upon the new Quad module. Looks like they still use the USB 5v as well.

 

 

Hi Tranz: How are you inferring that the MSB USB Quad module uses 5V power? Hopefully not just from Alexis777's statement that the REGEN improves the sound when feeding it. Remember, cleaner USB power is only REGEN's secondary function. Most of the sonic benefits come from improving the signal integrity and impedance match, not from the better 5VBUS power. So it is possible that MSB uses no power from the USB. Improvements will still be quite significant.

 

Best,

ALEX

[baddog]

FWIW - The MSB Analog DAC does require 5v from the USB to operate.