Article: A Midsummer Night’s Dream - Compare Simultaneous DSD64 and DSD256 Session Recordings

[acousticsguru]

Providing an offline upsampling and conversion app like that, to use with the HQ Player filters, would be quite a popular product for consumers as well.

 

Any plans to bring that to market?

 

+1

 

Was going to ask the same…

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[bmoura]

I have the same issue. Any suggestions for DSD256 support on a MAC. I know that Exasound has prop drivers for MAC. I am not aware of other manufacturer

 

Best bet is to ask the manufacturers of DACs that advertise DSD 256 features about Mac support.

 

Playing DSD 256 files with Windows computers doesn't seem to be an issue. I have noticed that some DAC makers follow their support of DSD 256 with a comment "on Windows".

 

Apparently playing DSD 256 with the Mac is much more difficult.

 

exaSound Brings Quad DSD to Mac, Support for Linux and Windows Server Enhancements

[Zero]

Thanks to all for making this available. This has led to an entertaining listening session for sure, and it's interesting to read the impressions of others.

 

On a Grace M920 + Focal Spirit Classic headphone setup (Windows 8.1 64 bit, JRiver MC 20.0.93), my impressions after one listening session are that the:

 

Grimm versions, both the original and .34 db boosted version have a slightly softer focus on woodwinds and maybe a little less detailed ambient sound of the hall, but strings have more body and detail. Bass has significantly greater body, if a little loose.

 

The Horus 64fs and 128fs versions (not via Signalist) present more information about the higher frequencies and the detail seems greater as a result. Strings sound glossed over to me. Bass is present but doesn't seem as deep - it's tighter. Overall impression was of a lighter, sweeter top end. 128fs sounded more natural than the 64fs, but both sounded relatively more analytical than the Grimm versions.

 

Overall I preferred the Grimm versions - they sounded more musical and were more engaging.

 

I just received the ORG remastered Peter Maag/LSO version on 45 rpm LP and am looking forward to comparing that, albeit through a different setup.

 

In any case, thanks again to everyone that made this possible.

[nwrecords]

Does anyone know of any mastering studios in the United States that utilizes the Merging Technologies Horus ADDA converters especially mastering from analogue tape (2-track, 1/2") source material?

[tailspn]

SoundMirror, Boston, Mark Donahue.

[tailspn]

And in Seattle, Bruce Brown of Pudget Sound Studios

 

Home | Puget Sound Studios

[tailspn]

Track 3: Horus - Sygnalyst @64 - lots of static on this one almost sounded like a dirty record. It was so bad I almost got up to fiddle with things as I thought something was wrong with the system.

 

Track 5: Grim - Sygnalyst @64 - there was that static back again. Not as bad as in track 3 but still very annoying.

 

I was playing this from a fanless Intel NUC i5 using JRiver to a ifi Micro DSD then through my Rotel processor in bypass mode to my Rotel power amplifier and through to a pair of Linn Index speakers. I didn't touch any of the settings throughout the listening and left the processor at the same volume level throughout.

 

For my money the Horus 64 would be the one I would buy. I was surprised that the 256 didn't sound better and other than the tracks with nasty static on them it sounded the worst of the lot. The Horus at 128 was also quite nice as well. I think it might have been the clearest of them all but the Horus at 64 seemed to have the most presence and feeling in it.

 

Thanks again for the opportunity to get these files in their unadulterated raw form for a real apples to apples comparison.

 

 

Thanks DaQi for your listening and reporting!

 

Rather than my playing the files from the drive I used to upload to the nativedsd server, I downloaded both the Signalyst 64fs converted files; the Grimm level increase by 0.34dB, and the Horus 256fs bit rate converted to 64fs. I played them out through the ESS9018 based Horus, and could hear no static or other noises.

 

I'm at a loss to explain why your system reacted as it did to those two files. My first thought is the ultrasonic noise content is shaped different, and greater with the Signalyst converted 64fs files than the same 64fs bit rate native Grimm, and your system reacts negatively to that noise energy. Perhaps Miska may have a comment.

 

Thanks again for your input!

 

Tom

[exa]

Best bet is to ask the manufacturers of DACs that advertise DSD 256 features about Mac support.

 

Playing DSD 256 files with Windows computers doesn't seem to be an issue. I have noticed that some DAC makers follow their support of DSD 256 with a comment "on Windows".

 

Apparently playing DSD 256 with the Mac is much more difficult.

 

exaSound Brings Quad DSD to Mac, Support for Linux and Windows Server Enhancements

DSD256 over DoP on Mac (DoP256) works best with Audirvana 2. DSD256 over ASIO on Mac works best with HQ Player. It also works great with Decibel. Check our blog for step-by-step configuration instructions - exaSound Audio Design > Blog > Guides

 

Unfortunately native DSD is not available with Amarra.

 

The last time I checked, JRiver on Mac had no support for DSD256 and multichannel DSD. Please post on the JRiver support forum if you are interested in these features. The JRiver development team is very busy and the most demanded features on the wait list are implemented first. We've provided to them an e28 DAC for testing.

[Sevenfeet]

DSD 256 on the Mac may require a driver from the maker of your DAC (Oppo). For example, exaSound has ASIO drivers for their DACs that specifically support Stereo and Multichannel DSD 256 on the Mac or Windows.

 

DSD 256 Available on Mac for the First Time > exaSound Audio Design

 

 

Yeah, I'm just now figuring this out. Since I posted my first remarks here I've discovered:

 

JRiver is indeed a really nice music app...on a PC (not perfect but nice). On the Mac, it's still very much a work in progress. My first exposure to it was the Mac version. I auditioned it on a PC during a headphone meet in Nashville and it was a much better experience. So I installed it on a PC I have and low and behold, it is a much nicer experience without all the problems I've seen. If DSD works on the Mac without a special driver (like from exa), I haven't seen how to do it. Oppo provides a PC ASIO driver for their products, which seems to be the norm in the PC world.

[Sevenfeet]

DSD256 over DoP on Mac (DoP256) works best with Audirvana 2. DSD256 over ASIO on Mac works best with HQ Player. It also works great with Decibel. Check our blog for step-by-step configuration instructions - exaSound Audio Design > Blog > Guides

 

Unfortunately native DSD is not available with Amarra.

 

The last time I checked, JRiver on Mac had no support for DSD256 and multichannel DSD. Please post on the JRiver support forum if you are interested in these features. The JRiver development team is very busy and the most demanded features on the wait list are implemented first. We've provided to them an e28 DAC for testing.

 

I had heard of Decibel a while ago but hadn't tried it. I'll look into it. I had never heard of HQ Player at all (and again, will try it).

 

I like Audirvana 2 since I've had it for a few days. Probably one of the more polished Hi Res music apps on the Mac compared to Amarra and Pure Music.

 

The only ASIO driver for the Mac appears to be written by exa for their players. Not blaming them for that...it is what it is. And speaking of which, when I finally got around to installing JRiver Media Center 20 on a PC, I could get DSD playback working against the My Oppo HA-2. The main "not obvious" tweak was to turn on Bitstreaming (native mode) for DSD and turn off DoP. If both are on, then DoP is the default and that's fine until you try to play a DSD256 track which will fail due to bandwidth issues. Native mode works on the HA-2 with any DSD version, 64, 128 or 256.

[vinoboy]

Had trouble with my Hapi playing DSD due to incorrect buffer size in Ravenna ASIO Setting. Resolved with the help from Merging. Played all of these tracks using Pyramix DAW.

Sample Rate set to 2.8mhz -> Grimm-64 was good to hear... but when I switched to Horus-64, it was better.

Sample Rate set to 5.6mhz -> Horus-128 was even better much more dynamic sounding.. instruments were clear

Sample rate set to 11.2 mhz -> Horus-256 was clearly the best. More spatial. Instruments were very clear and music more lively. Did not realize that Horus-256 could be this good.

[chrille]

Had trouble with my Hapi playing DSD due to incorrect buffer size in Ravenna ASIO Setting. Resolved with the help from Merging. Played all of these tracks using Pyramix DAW.

Sample Rate set to 2.8mhz -> Grimm-64 was good to hear... but when I switched to Horus-64, it was better.

Sample Rate set to 5.6mhz -> Horus-128 was even better much more dynamic sounding.. instruments were clear

Sample rate set to 11.2 mhz -> Horus-256 was clearly the best. More spatial. Instruments were very clear and music more lively. Did not realize that Horus-256 could be this good.

 

Interesting to hear your take on these files playing them basically as they where recorded natively. Could you or anyone else tell me how much roughly a Hapi with the card capable of DSD 256 playback would cost?

I have been toying with the idea of getting one for PLAYBACK ONLY to begin with, so all I would need initially would be to be able to use it as my home DAC in stereo.

I have seen Hapi priced around 2500 dollars online.But I am not sure what that price would include.

All I would need is up to basic stereo DSD 256 playback capability.

Can the Hapi/Horus also be connected via usb to a mac and used like any consumer dac, or does one need Pyramix DAW to be able to actually playback with it?

I see little reason to pay inflated prices for consumer DACs if the same or even better SQ can be had from units like the Horus or Hapi used for the actual recordings I want to hear reproduced as realistically as possible.

[tailspn]

Could you or anyone else tell me how much roughly a Hapi with the card capable of DSD 256 playback would cost?

 

Here's an eBay link of the hardware components needed with prices:

 

Merging Techologies Hapi Networked Audio Interface | eBay

 

These seem to be list price, so there may be room for discounts. Further technical details can be found at merging's site:

 

Welcome to Merging Technologies

 

 

The Hapi is a platform in which 8 channel DAC and /or ADC cards may be housed. For DSD, you'll require the "P" (Premium) version of each. Hapi and Horus have only Ravenna Ethernet network connectivity, and supported by Merging's DAW Pyramix software. Pyramix is available in many versions, tailored to the application, but for DSD playback you'll require the minimal channel count Mastering Pack version supporting 6 DSD channels. Pyramix Mastering Pack is available in both MassCore and ASIO versions ranging from ~$3,600 down to ~$2,000 if I recall correctly.

 

The answer to your question, assuming playback only and ASIO Pyramix, is in the neighborhood of $6,200 to $$6,500, plus a reasonably modern I5/I7 based PC with Windows 7 to run it.

 

As an alternative, Merging is packaging the same design DAC capability in a 2 channel consumer DAC named NADAC to be available soon (?) featuring a tailored software system known as Emotion. Emotion has been available for years, trialed by some CA members here, all to rave reviews.

 

As an additional stereo, or multichannel alternative, ExaSound makes a range of DAC's all based on the same ESS9018 DAC chip contained in the Merging DAC that has earned wide acclaim, will play DSD 256fs files, and can be interfaced to both PC and Mac.

[tailspn]

Could you or anyone else tell me how much roughly a Hapi with the card capable of DSD 256 playback would cost?

 

Here's an eBay link of the hardware components needed with prices:

 

Merging Techologies Hapi Networked Audio Interface | eBay

 

These seem to be list price, so there may be room for discounts. Further technical details can be found at Merging's site:

 

Welcome to Merging Technologies

 

 

The Hapi is a platform in which 8 channel DAC and /or ADC cards may be housed. For DSD, you'll require the "P" (Premium) version of each. Hapi and Horus have only Ravenna Ethernet network connectivity, and supported by Merging's DAW Pyramix software. Pyramix is available in many versions, tailored to the application, but for DSD playback you'll require the minimal channel count Mastering Pack version supporting 6 DSD channels. Pyramix Mastering Pack is available in both MassCore and ASIO versions ranging from ~$3,600 down to ~$2,000 if I recall correctly.

 

The answer to your question, assuming playback only and ASIO Pyramix, is in the neighborhood of $6,200 to $$6,500, plus a reasonably modern I5/I7 based PC with Windows 7 to run it.

 

As an alternative, Merging is packaging the same design DAC capability in a 2 channel consumer DAC named NADAC to be available soon (?) featuring a tailored software system known as Emotion. Emotion has been available for years, trialed by some CA members here, all to rave reviews.

 

As an additional stereo, or multichannel alternative, ExaSound makes a range of DAC's all based on the same ESS9018 DAC chip contained in the Merging DAC that has earned wide acclaim, will play DSD 256fs files, and can be interfaced to both PC and Mac.

[chrille]

Here's an eBay link of the hardware components needed with prices:

 

Merging Techologies Hapi Networked Audio Interface | eBay

 

These seem to be list price, so there may be room for discounts. Further technical details can be found at Merging's site:

 

Welcome to Merging Technologies

 

 

The Hapi is a platform in which 8 channel DAC and /or ADC cards may be housed. For DSD, you'll require the "P" (Premium) version of each. Hapi and Horus have only Ravenna Ethernet network connectivity, and supported by Merging's DAW Pyramix software. Pyramix is available in many versions, tailored to the application, but for DSD playback you'll require the minimal channel count Mastering Pack version supporting 6 DSD channels. Pyramix Mastering Pack is available in both MassCore and ASIO versions ranging from ~$3,600 down to ~$2,000 if I recall correctly.

 

The answer to your question, assuming playback only and ASIO Pyramix, is in the neighborhood of $6,200 to $$6,500, plus a reasonably modern I5/I7 based PC with Windows 7 to run it.

 

As an alternative, Merging is packaging the same design DAC capability in a 2 channel consumer DAC named NADAC to be available soon (?) featuring a tailored software system known as Emotion. Emotion has been available for years, trialed by some CA members here, all to rave reviews.

 

As an additional stereo, or multichannel alternative, ExaSound makes a range of DAC's all based on the same ESS9018 DAC chip contained in the Merging DAC that has earned wide acclaim, will play DSD 256fs files, and can be interfaced to both PC and Mac.

 

Thanks for your rapid response Tom.

It seems there are a couple of catches involved no usb and no mac?

But I have seen Hapi connected to a mac online.

I think Morten of 2L is using both Horus and Hapi and macs nowadays.

I know it is possible to install windows parallel to OSX.

Maybe that is what he has done?

But I do not want to use windows if it can be avoided.

On the other hand, even if I intially would only use it for stereo and playback a Hapi offers a lot more options and future possiblilites than any consumer unit it seems.

[tailspn]

Yes, there is a OSX (64 bit) installer and driver listed, but I have no knowledge of its function or requirements. You can find further information about it, and greater detail about Hapi at the Merging download and support page:

 

Merging Technologies Downloads

[bmoura]

Thanks for your rapid response Tom.

It seems there are a couple of catches involved no usb and no mac?

But I have seen Hapi connected to a mac online.

I think Morten of 2L is using both Horus and Hapi and macs nowadays.

I know it is possible to install windows parallel to OSX.

Maybe that is what he has done?

But I do not want to use windows if it can be avoided.

On the other hand, even if I intially would only use it for stereo and playback a Hapi offers a lot more options and future possiblilites than any consumer unit it seems.

 

It's worth mentioning that the upcoming consumer NADAC Stereo and 8-Channel DACs from Merging Technologies are also without USB input. But they do support Ethernet and the Ravenna protocol.

 

Clearly Merging believes this is the way to go. A bit gutsy I'd say since almost every consumer DAC on the market today offers USB input - either only or with other options. Will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

 

NADAC | PRODUCT

[One and a half]

It's worth mentioning that the upcoming consumer NADAC Stereo and 8-Channel DACs from Merging Technologies are also without USB input. But they do support Ethernet and the Ravenna protocol.

 

Clearly Merging believes this is the way to go. A bit gutsy I'd say since almost every consumer DAC on the market today offers USB input - either only or with other options. Will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

 

NADAC | PRODUCT

 

The Berkerley Design DAC doesn't offer a USB input either, then it again it doesn't offer Ethernet as an alternative, nor support DSD let alone to 256 I think it's a good move, especially at higher DSD rates where USB drivers get complex (example Exasound).

[bmoura]

The Berkerley Design DAC doesn't offer a USB input either, then it again it doesn't offer Ethernet as an alternative, nor support DSD let alone to 256 I think it's a good move, especially at higher DSD rates where USB drivers get complex (example Exasound).

 

I'm intrigued. Looking forward to talking with the Merging team at The Show in Newport Beach later this month about NADAC.

[analogsurviver]

Wow, what a treat to be able to listen to these files and what a comparison. I was surprised by the results.

 

I downloaded all the 7 tracks available and played them in a random order. Actually, I thought I knew the order but when I sat down at my computer again they were not in the order I thought. So here are my results and thoughts...

 

Track 1: Horus @256 - Sounds muffled and boomy. Didn't like this one much.

Track 2: Horus - Sygnalyst @128 - This one sounded okay and much better than the first track

Track 3: Horus - Sygnalyst @64 - lots of static on this one almost sounded like a dirty record. It was so bad I almost got up to fiddle with things as I thought something was wrong with the system.

Track 4: Horus @128 - the static was gone so my system wasn't bad. This one seemed much more open than track 2 the dynamic range didn't sound problematic at all and the individual instruments sounded much clearer.

Track 5: Grim - Sygnalyst @64 - there was that static back again. Not as bad as in track 3 but still very annoying.

Track 6: Horus @64 - Hard to tell the difference between this and track 4. The dynamic range seemed slightly more tame than in track 4. I think I liked this one the best although track 4 and track 7 were close seconds.

Track 7: Grim @64 - Hard to tell the difference between this and track 6 but it sounded slightly less dynamic and a but muffled.

 

I was playing this from a fanless Intel NUC i5 using JRiver to a ifi Micro DSD then through my Rotel processor in bypass mode to my Rotel power amplifier and through to a pair of Linn Index speakers. I didn't touch any of the settings throughout the listening and left the processor at the same volume level throughout.

 

For my money the Horus 64 would be the one I would buy. I was surprised that the 256 didn't sound better and other than the tracks with nasty static on them it sounded the worst of the lot. The Horus at 128 was also quite nice as well. I think it might have been the clearest of them all but the Horus at 64 seemed to have the most presence and feeling in it.

 

Thanks again for the opportunity to get these files in their unadulterated raw form for a real apples to apples comparison.

 

I just re- listened to all the 7 tracks - and to my great surprise found the static in the two tracks that went trough Sygnalist - using iFi Aidio nano iDSD. The tracks were clean using iFi Audio micro iDSD - the one you experienced static with.

 

Any ideas what might be causing this ? This is the first time I had such an issue with nano.

[Bunpei]

I listened Grimm 2.8 MHz version and Horus 11.3 MHz version using my DIY SD card player + ES9018 Dual Mono DAC system many times in various environment and setting. Impressions I got much depended upon the environment and the setting actually.

In the case of Horus, a reference DAC must be a DA board of Merging. In the case of Grimm AD1, which DAC system is their reference?

 

For my money, I like Horus 11.3 MHz version because my system can play it with the best resolution. However, I guess some better professional systems might play Grimm 2.8 MHz version musically the best.

[Mordicai]

Listening on a Mac through Jriver, I thought Horus 256 & Horus 128 sounded the best.Less distortion in the highs for me, and a richer experience.

[Russell_L]

Reviving this old thread since the recording in question (Mendelssohn's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream') has finally been released on NativeDSD.com (https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/37418-mendelssohn-overture-and-incidental-music-to-a-midsumer-nights-dream).

 

I see that it's been released in all three DSD resolutions (64, 128, 256) as well as in DXD.  The question is: which version to download?  Which version (Grimm or Horus, 64fs or 256fs) was ultimately used?  To further confuse matters, clicking 'tech specs' on the page reveals that the recording type & bit rate was 64fs.

 

Can anyone connected with Channel (Brian, Tom, Ted) respond?

[Jared Sacks]

The recording was originally digitized using the Grimm AD1, which operates at DSD64. The original session tracks were edited and rebalanced (which meant going through the mixer)  in the only available format for that purpose; the Pyramix 352.8KHz/24bit PCM (DXD). Prior to the advent of direct digital delivery, the next step in the production process from 352.8KHz/24bit PCM would be the DSD64 edited master for SACD production. What we have done now is also make a direct conversion to DSD128 and DSD256 from that original DXD edited master, without going through any interim processing steps.

Those DXD to DSD conversions are not up-samplings, as they would be going from one PCM sampling rate to another, for they are different encoding systems. PCM is a digital value sample based system, and DSD is a digital bit density modulated system. Conversion from any PCM sample rate to any DSD bit rate system is a remodulation, not an up-sampling.

We feel there is an audio advantage to this process in using the original files so we give you the choice and you can decide.

Jared Sacks

[Russell_L]

Excellent info -- many thanks, Jared!!!  (I think I'll try the DXD version.)

 

Russell