ted_b Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 You can view the page at http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content.php?r=635-A-Midsummer-Night’s-Dream-Compare-Simultaneous-DSD64-and-DSD256-Session-Recordings "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
REShaman Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I have DL'd all four tracks even though my Wyred4Sound Dac2 DSDse is only capable of DSD64/128 and not 256. Intend to play through HQPlayer in Native DSD mode. Sorry I will not be able to compare the DSD256 track. Best, Richard Link to comment
Doak Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Great! Thanks for this noble endeavor. Grabbed the DLs. Look forward to listening - and reporting. Doak Doak's Audio System Link to comment
jhwalker Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I love Jared's recordings with the Budapest Festival Orchestra / Fischer! I can't wait for this one to come out for purchase. I have downloaded all four of the stereo samples and will listen to them via HQPlayer > NAA in Native DSD mode, Direct SDM (i.e., no resampling / modulating). iFi Micro iDSD + Mr. Speakers Alpha Prime headphones. From what I've heard so far, I don't know that I'll be able to tell the difference but I *think* I prefer each of the Horus versions to the Grimm - next to the Horus, the Grimm sounds a bit muted / soft. More later when I've had a few more listens. John Walker - IT Executive Headphone - SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable Ethernet > mRendu Roon endpoint > Topping D90 > Topping A90d > Dan Clark Expanse / HiFiMan H6SE v2 / HiFiman Arya Stealth Home Theater / Music -SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable HDMI > Denon X3700h > Anthem Amp for front channels > Revel F208-based 5.2.4 Atmos speaker system Link to comment
Bunpei Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'd like to make one thing clear. Which microphones were used for that recording session? My guess is "B & K". Is this correct? Link to comment
NiHo Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Ted, Thanks for making this available. I played three of the files from an SD card directly in my Resonessence Invicta → Bryston PowerPac 300s → Wilson Benesch Discoveries. Comments are: • Grimm DSD 64: Impression of a slightly blurred sound. Sounds more like a recording than a live concert. • Horus DSD 64: Clearer than the Grimm, and gives the impression of being more dynamic. Could this be due to a lower noise floor? • Horus DSD 128: The attacks and generally the shape of the notes are better defined than at 64. Starting to sound more like a live concert. As the Invicta doesn’t play DSD 256 I didn’t bother downloading that version. Link to comment
tailspn Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Hi Bunpei, It's primarily a mix of DPA 4003/6 (B&K) modified for 70 volt battery power, and Schoeps 2H and 2S. Equipment - Channel Classics Records The prinmary ITU and a and b mics are DPA omni's. Link to comment
ted_b Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'd like to make one thing clear. Which microphones were used for that recording session? My guess is "B & K". Is this correct? Yes, Bruel & Kjaer 4006s. I've asked Tom to add more detail (oops, which he beat me to it.. Thx Tom) "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
esldude Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The Grimm file is .3 db quieter than the Horus. Just enough to make sure the Horus files sound better. Such a simple detail to get right. The Grimm clock also is around 5 ppm slower though this should be of no audible consequence. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
firedog Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I also thought the Horus 64 sounded better than the Grimm, so I compared the Horus 64 to the Horus 128. Can't do 256 - yet! I thought the 128 sounded slightly more "open/airy", slightly more "live". Very slight difference, though. Not positive I would notice it every time. Would I pay for the higher res? Only if it was a recording I was especially interested in. Thanks to Native DSD and Channel for doing this. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
tailspn Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The Grimm file is .3 db quieter than the Horus. Just enough to make sure the Horus files sound better. Such a simple detail to get right. The Grimm clock also is around 5 ppm slower though this should be of no audible consequence. I'd be interested in how you determined the Horus is .3dB louder. I don't disagree, or agree, their tonal balance are different. We only had the Pyramix metering at the session to balance two independent systems, so in fact it's not so simple. Remember, these are raw DSD session files. Link to comment
EuroDriver Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I was very privileged to attend this session and I would like to make the additional points / anecdotes - Jarred Sacks and Hein Dekker were both at some point in their early careers orchestral musicians of the first rank. They hear stuff that the orchestra is doing not perfectly that even the conductor misses, and politely ask for a replay, often several times, until the performers get it just right. The working relationship between the J & H with the conductor and the soloists is a joy to witness, people with passion, working together, to create moments of sonic art and beauty - It was the first time that I have ever had the opportunity to change rows during a performance. The big take away for me was that there were sweet spots and bad spots between rows 20 and 5. A bad spot in my book is where the sound is congested. Microphone placement is key and that is where the experience of Jarred and Hein is priceless. The Hall in Budapest is tunable, there are many large side doors in the wings of the balcony levels which can be opened , slightly closed, or full closed which effects the reverberations. It was originally designed to be computer controlled, but the system does not work. Hein Dekker, after recording here more than a half dozen times, knows the acoustic character of the hall and is able to set the door openings manually - the performances were magical, a life experience I will never forget. Many thanks to tailspin aka Tom Caufield for arranging Sound Test, Monaco Consultant to Sound Galleries Monaco, and Taiko Audio Holland e-mail [email protected] Link to comment
astrotoy Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I just download the files. Thanks so much for making them available. I will play them through my Exa E028, which I believe can play all of the different versions. As of now, I plan to be in Geneva in June to hear the new Merging multichannel DAC. Don't know the specs yet. Larry Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Horizon, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105 Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps; Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-1.8KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50+TBripped files Link to comment
Superdad Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I was very privileged to attend this session …....the performances were magical, a life experience I will never forget. Wow Edward, that must indeed have been a very rare treat. It is heartening to know that such care is still going into recording and preserving fine classical music performances. Our world's culture is much richer through the dedication and labor of those relent musicians and engineers/producers. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
bswietlik Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Thanks for this enjoyable comparison! I just listened to three of the four recordings as my OPPO 105D/JRiverMC will not play DSD256, only DSD64 and 128. The Horus DSD128 recording was by far the superior sounding recording. Much more dynamic and open, in sum much more real. Next, was the Horus DSD64 and then the Grimm. The Grimm sounded veiled and stuffy, with weak dynamics and a lack of realism. I listen now exclusively to DSD music, and overall, I was quiet disappointed with the DSD64 sound from both Grimm and Horus --neither really seemed to have the sound quality I have gotten used to from DSD. Link to comment
realafrica Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I have my GEEK Pulse and foobar configured to play everything as DSD128. It was the only way I could play the double DSD and not have to keep changing the config.. Listening: I first tried a comparison between the 2 recorders at DSD64. I could not tell any difference on my system with my ears. Then I played all the files, one at a time, skipping back and forth and choosing a few different short passages to use for comparison. I could not tell any difference on my system with my ears. www.realafrica.net Link to comment
esldude Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'd be interested in how you determined the Horus is .3dB louder. I don't disagree, or agree, their tonal balance are different. We only had the Pyramix metering at the session to balance two independent systems, so in fact it's not so simple. Remember, these are raw DSD session files. Converted the files to PCM so such things could be easily compared. You are right, getting level matching with DSD isn't so simple. .3 db is enough to give an apparent tonal balance difference. Such small differences don't sound like loudness. Typically the quieter version might sound less firm and slightly less extended in the low end while less spacious in general. Whether that is the only difference in these files I don't know. But a fair comparison requires a .3 db bump somewhere in the playback chain for the Grimm files. I also noticed the 64fs Horus file has a good bit less ultrasonic noise above 27 khz than the Grimm. The downsampling probably used a steeper filter. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
tailspn Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Thanks for your feedback! I'll pass the Grimm 64fs through Jussi Lako's 7th order modulator, increasing the level by .3dB, and add to the Just Listen Mendelssohn folder. I'll also do the same with the Pyramix 64fs modulator so there's the opportunity to compare the same level change with two different DSD remodulators from the raw file. On the pyramix timeline, you can easily see the graphic waveform difference with an 4X expanded scale between the ultrasonic noise of the native 64fs and 256fs recordings. You're correct, converting the 256fs to 64fs does not yield the same noise signature as a native recorded 64fs of either the Grimm OR Horus. So yes, there's something in the filter shape that affects the result. I have not tried Jussi's DSD bit rate conversion to compare with the Pyramix yet, and that is an interesting variable. Thanks again for your input! Link to comment
analogsurviver Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 This is my first post on the Computeraudiophile. Just downloaded the Mendelssohn tracks - and listened to them on iFi micro iDSD driving AKG K-1000s. Too bad it came to the 0.3 dB difference in levels between Grim and Horus - it is quite noticeable. Please note I do understand how difficult it is to set the levels exactly right - particularly for the DSD. Still, even if listening to the Grimm and Horus DSD64 in Korg Audiogate 2.x.y (latest version downloadable for 2. ) in 192/24 and high quality mode, Horus has much more believable dynamic range - even if a bit dry. As I have been recording to DSD128 for a couple of years on Korg MR-1000, I was naturally interested how DSD128 compares to DSD256. Much subtler difference than between Grimm and Horus, but is there. It is 02:12 here, I will do some more comparisons tomorrow. I am also looking forward to uploading of for 0.3 dB level corrected track for Grimm. Thank to everybody who made this possible - and I was particularly happy to see my countryman, mezzo Barbara Kozelj, participating in this recording. I had the pleasure of recording the dress rehearsal for Bach Johannes Passion, in which she also sang, two weeks ago at Cankarjev Dom, Ljubljana, Slovenia. I also attended at the second concert - she really performed splendidly. Which all makes me eagerly anticipating the possibility to purchase the DSD256 download of the entire piece when available. Link to comment
testikoff Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Grimm track is not only 0.34dB quieter than Horus DSD256/128 tracks (& 0.4dB quieter than Horus DSD64 track), it also features substantial DC offsets (about 2.3/1.7 in left/right channels; nor DC offsets on Horus tracks). Spectrally, however, featured Horus & Grimm tracks are virtually identical from 20Hz to 20kHz (not sure how anyone can tell the difference between them in a level-matched test). See spectral deltas graph below (frequency range reduced to 2kHz...40kHz; tracks are at equal perceived loudness): Link to comment
tailspn Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Signalyst level corrected +0.34dB Grimm 64fs stereo tracks uploaded to Amazon, but will take up to 24 hours to appear on the Just Listen Mendelssohn page as Track 05. The 7th order modulator used is 13 years advanced of the Pyramix DSD Render modulator, so was used instead. There are only limited valid conclusions that can be made of either the 64fs, or 128fs Horus tracks, for they are the result of remodulation of the 256fs source. They're presented as a courtesy to those who would like to participate, but as yet do not have 256fs DSD playout capability. Link to comment
Bunpei Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I think frequency spectra show remarkable differences on quantization noise profiles. (DSD sources were converted into PCM 176.4kHz/24bit ones by using Korg AudioGate program. Almost identical typical sections were manually selected for the comparison.) Link to comment
tailspn Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I've created, and uploaded to our Amazon server, a Signalyst generated +0.34dB level increase of the Grimm stereo file. It may take up to 24 hours to appear on the Just Listen Mendelssohn page as Track 05. The Singalyst 7th order adaptive modulator used is 13 years advanced of the Pyramix modulator used in DSD Rendering, and was therefore used instead. There are few valid objective conclusions that can be made of the Horus 64fs and 128fs tracks, for they are a remodulation of the original 256fs source files. They were included as a courtesy to those who would like to participate, but have yet to obtain 256fs DSD playout capability. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now