Uptone Audio Regen

[Jud]

 

p.s. plus I can use the extra time to make the "post it note stack" for my Regen.

 

I think someone was talking a while back about 3D printing a cradle for himself. Sounds like an interesting idea. Wonder how much a cheap 3D printer is?

 

Edit: OK, a little research shows "cheap 3D printer" is a bit of an oxymoron. Back to thinking of clever ways to carve Post-it note stacks!

[baddog]

Jud - actually we have greater than fifty+ 3D printers of all sizes and makes at work, all available to use. Sadly the software to use them, unless one is given a template is just a bit too much to wrap my head around. So for me at least back to exploring methods to cut the post it note stacks in half...

 

Unless of course Jason can make me a template I can use.

 

p.s. and the "cheap" ones tend to be best at making little sailboats and keychains...

[Superdad]

Looks like I am not alone during this "tax day" frustration with USPS.

 

Usps.com - Is United States Postal Service Down Right Now?

https://downdetector.com/status/usps

 

Still can't squat there as of now. They darn well better have it fixed by the morning. Grrrr…

 

--Alex

 

P.S. Upon Jason's request, I sent him the DWG files for the REGEN case many months ago when he was thinking about modeling a cradle for it. I think the idea would be that the 3D CAD file for printing one would be made available somewhere (my web site makes sense), and that there would be a certain DAC USB jack height dimension that folks would to and plug it into the model to raise or lower it--and then use one of the online 3D print service firms to make it. I think that would be cool.

 

It is going to reside behind your gear, so Post-its or charcoal foam blocks are cool too.

[scan80269]

Good things come to those who wait. I've just received an order of cassette deck belt kits placed last July...

 

Don't sweat over things outside of your control. I'm sure there'll be a happy ending, and the accolades for REGEN will start pouring in. For now, I wish you a great evening.

 

BTW, I just got put on the wait list for the May 2nd Berkeley event, and hope to meet you, John, Chris, et. al. in person.

[Bob Stern]

Alex, feel free to PM me if you need help automating the process of reformatting the ordering data using AppleScript or text processing scripts. However, it sounds like you're well beyond that point.

[BobL]

Good things come to those who wait. I've just received an order of cassette deck belt kits placed last July...

 

Don't sweat over things outside of your control. I'm sure there'll be a happy ending, and the accolades for REGEN will start pouring in. For now, I wish you a great evening.

 

+1(or more)!

I waited 12 months for my Paul Hynes supply, and being optimistic it looks as if the MDAC-2 will be 24 months from ordering. A week is not a big deal, but I can understand the frustration, Alex. Thanks for all your efforts.

 

Bob

[Jimmypowder]

So what's the difference between the Regen and Schiit Decrapifier?

 

They are both reclockers , right ?

 

So how is this an innovative product?

 

Fill me in .

[drmike]

for john Swenson,

your diy ps for the touch, with the appropriate voltage regulator, would work for the regen?

I have the w4s dac2.

thanks,

drmike

[Jud]

So what's the difference between the Regen and Schiit Decrapifier?

 

They are both reclockers , right ?

 

So how is this an innovative product?

 

Fill me in .

 

Here, I did your research for you: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-comparisons-14397/index21.html#post405188

[Jimmypowder]

Here, I did your research for you: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-comparisons-14397/index21.html#post405188

 

Not really . I read some of that conversation . The Uptone uses the same USB chip and it's a reclocker like the Schiit Decrapifier.

 

I have an Uptone on order for May so I can't wait to see if it improves the audio in my system .

 

I look forward to the listening impressions thread . I don't have the most expensive USB cables so we shall see .

[Jud]

Not really . I read some of that conversation . The Uptone uses the same USB chip and it's a reclocker like the Schiit Decrapifier.

 

Yes, that comment from Superdad points out the similarities (which you referenced above) and the differences (which you didn't) between the Regen and the Wyrd. If something at that level of detail (chip selection, PCB construction, impedance and more) doesn't do it for you, I'm not at all sure what would, prior to anyone outside of Superdad and John Swenson having a chance to compare subjective impressions.

 

I look forward to the listening impressions thread . I don't have the most expensive USB cables so we shall see .

 

I'm in a similar situation.

 

Edit: One thing I do like is that, unlike the Wyrd. there is no necessity for a second USB cable with the Regen (though it will be interesting to see whether anyone decides to try that for themselves).

[rickca]

After all your careful design and execution, USPS goes down. A government service that doesn't work. Unheard of.

[Jud]

After all your careful design and execution, USPS goes down. A government service that doesn't work. Unheard of.

 

To be fair (yeah I know, who wants to?), I would guess that's one of the busier days of the year for USPS, and is likely the reason for availability bouncing on and off.

[JohnSwenson]

So what's the difference between the Regen and Schiit Decrapifier?

 

They are both reclockers , right ?

 

So how is this an innovative product?

 

Fill me in .

 

The Wyrd and the regen are conceptually similar from an upper level standpoint, they are very different in implementation and motivation for the development.

 

From reading what Schiit has posted it seems that their motivation was providing a clean power supply and secondly regenerating the data, whereas my motivation was providing the highest signal quality I could, and secondly providing very clean power.

 

Some of the differences are:

The regen has a much lower jitter clock feeding the hub chip, which will provide lower jitter on the data.

 

The regen uses a 4 layer board, primarily to allow a proper impedance match. With a standard thickness 2 layer board it is impossible to attain a proper impedance match to the hub chip. The pins on the chip are small and close together, this necessitates very thin board traces, with a two layer board the distance between ground plane and these traces (BTW this is called a differential micro-strip configuration) produce an impedance that is much greater than the spec. With a four layer board the ground plane can be much closer to the top layer which allows for appropriate impedance with the very narrow traces. The regen also uses SMD USB jacks which allow for appropriate trace width and spacing to continue the impedance matching through to the USB jacks. The result of this is that there will be very minimal reflections at the regen side. Even if the DAC does not have good impedance matching (which is pretty common) which WILL cause a reflection at the DAC end, it will be absorbed at the regen because of the proper impedance matching.

 

The regen has a frequncy optimized Power Delivery network (PDN), which turns out to make a very significant improvement in SQ. This is quite a technical subject, WAY beyond what I can post here, but here is the mile high summary:

 

In order to properly respond to the load variations of what the supply is powering, it needs to have a low impedance over a very broad range of frequencies. For digital audio this is from low Hz to hundreds of Mhz range. The entire supply flow from mains AC to board layout and capacitors on the board play a role in getting this right.

 

The regen is what got me focusing in on this. I was testing the first prototype and was seeing some noise on the supply right at the hub chip power pins that shouldn't be there. After a lot of detective work I traced it down to some frequency ranges of the PDN that were much higher impedance than they should be. I included a fix for this in the second version. With this I couldn't detect the noise any more, and it sounded much better, but Alex was still not super thrilled with the SQ. I then did a mathematical analysis of the PDN and found another frequency range that had a higher impedance than it should, made a fix for this, and sent the result to Alex, he was thrilled, this was much better than anything he had heard before.

 

This process of frequency optimizing the PDN is something that is done in expensive high speed network equipment, but is almost never done in consumer products, especially audio equipment. But the experience with the regen seems to point to this being quite important for digital audio. I have subsequently tried some of this on some DACs and seen marked improvement in SQ, so it looks like this might be a significant area to look into.

 

The whole reason I started thinking about a regen was the USB cable threads, after a lot of experimentation and thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that the signal integrity at the DAC was what was probably the difference between cables. Thus a device designed to regenerate the data signals. Because the whole purpose was to regenerate the signals that the cables were messing up, the regen device had to be right at the input to the DAC, thus it needed to be small and low weight.

 

One un-anticipated benefit to the frequency optimized PDN, is that the noise on the VBUS output is much less sensitive to load transients than other implementations. So if the DAC IS bus powered, that brings even more improvement.

 

Well there it is, the primary reasons the regen hasa better implementation than other devices.

 

John S.

[jtwrace]

Thanks John! I can't wait to see how it works!

[Jimmypowder]

The Wyrd and the regen are conceptually similar from an upper level standpoint, they are very different in implementation and motivation for the development.

 

From reading what Schiit has posted it seems that their motivation was providing a clean power supply and secondly regenerating the data, whereas my motivation was providing the highest signal quality I could, and secondly providing very clean power.

 

Some of the differences are:

The regen has a much lower jitter clock feeding the hub chip, which will provide lower jitter on the data.

 

The regen uses a 4 layer board, primarily to allow a proper impedance match. With a standard thickness 2 layer board it is impossible to attain a proper impedance match to the hub chip. The pins on the chip are small and close together, this necessitates very thin board traces, with a two layer board the distance between ground plane and these traces (BTW this is called a differential micro-strip configuration) produce an impedance that is much greater than the spec. With a four layer board the ground plane can be much closer to the top layer which allows for appropriate impedance with the very narrow traces. The regen also uses SMD USB jacks which allow for appropriate trace width and spacing to continue the impedance matching through to the USB jacks. The result of this is that there will be very minimal reflections at the regen side. Even if the DAC does not have good impedance matching (which is pretty common) which WILL cause a reflection at the DAC end, it will be absorbed at the regen because of the proper impedance matching.

 

The regen has a frequncy optimized Power Delivery network (PDN), which turns out to make a very significant improvement in SQ. This is quite a technical subject, WAY beyond what I can post here, but here is the mile high summary:

 

In order to properly respond to the load variations of what the supply is powering, it needs to have a low impedance over a very broad range of frequencies. For digital audio this is from low Hz to hundreds of Mhz range. The entire supply flow from mains AC to board layout and capacitors on the board play a role in getting this right.

 

The regen is what got me focusing in on this. I was testing the first prototype and was seeing some noise on the supply right at the hub chip power pins that shouldn't be there. After a lot of detective work I traced it down to some frequency ranges of the PDN that were much higher impedance than they should be. I included a fix for this in the second version. With this I couldn't detect the noise any more, and it sounded much better, but Alex was still not super thrilled with the SQ. I then did a mathematical analysis of the PDN and found another frequency range that had a higher impedance than it should, made a fix for this, and sent the result to Alex, he was thrilled, this was much better than anything he had heard before.

 

This process of frequency optimizing the PDN is something that is done in expensive high speed network equipment, but is almost never done in consumer products, especially audio equipment. But the experience with the regen seems to point to this being quite important for digital audio. I have subsequently tried some of this on some DACs and seen marked improvement in SQ, so it looks like this might be a significant area to look into.

 

The whole reason I started thinking about a regen was the USB cable threads, after a lot of experimentation and thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that the signal integrity at the DAC was what was probably the difference between cables. Thus a device designed to regenerate the data signals. Because the whole purpose was to regenerate the signals that the cables were messing up, the regen device had to be right at the input to the DAC, thus it needed to be small and low weight.

 

One un-anticipated benefit to the frequency optimized PDN, is that the noise on the VBUS output is much less sensitive to load transients than other implementations. So if the DAC IS bus powered, that brings even more improvement.

 

Well there it is, the primary reasons the regen hasa better implementation than other devices.

 

John S.

 

Well thanks for the very detailed explanation ! I have a Regen on order for May and really like the approach you are taking here .

[RichB]

Jud - actually we have greater than fifty+ 3D printers of all sizes and makes at work, all available to use. Sadly the software to use them, unless one is given a template is just a bit too much to wrap my head around. So for me at least back to exploring methods to cut the post it note stacks in half...

 

Unless of course Jason can make me a template I can use.

 

p.s. and the "cheap" ones tend to be best at making little sailboats and keychains...

 

Just saw this article this morning... its like a simple 3D printing for dummies app :-)

 

Maybe a good way to design up some simple supports for the Regen.

 

Turn Your Drawings Into 3D-Printable Models With MakerBot's iPad App

 

[Daudio]

The regen has a frequency optimized Power Delivery network (PDN)... a low impedance over a very broad range of frequencies. For digital audio this is from low Hz to hundreds of Mhz range. The entire supply flow from mains AC to board layout and capacitors on the board play a role in getting this right.

 

John,

 

This reminds me of some DIY amp upgrades I did many years ago by adding PP caps to the +/- rails, close to where the power was actually used, to provide a fast energy storage. Essentially lower impedance power at high (audio) frequencies, through crudely implemented.

 

Is my analogy close to what you are talking about with PDN ? Through I realize you are talking about a much smaller scale, and less about adding energy storage, as reducing losses.

 

 

Also, were you part of the Hovland team ? I thought I saw you in a pic on Uptones new web site.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[firedog]

Conceptually, they are pretty much the same project: USB reclocker and supplying clean power to the DAC.

 

The Regen seems to be a more sophisticated design - the same idea executed at a higher level. I own and use a Wyrd, so when my Regen arrives I will be able to give you my subjective impression whether it improves SQ over the Wyrd. I did review the Wyrd somewhere on the forum and reported that it improved the sound of my system. I'm hoping the Regen knocks the sound up another notch.

 

So what's the difference between the Regen and Schiit Decrapifier?

 

They are both reclockers , right ?

 

So how is this an innovative product?

 

Fill me in .

[Superdad]

UPDATE:

About 1 hour ago the USPS site finally started to cooperate (early this morning it too 15 minutes to coax a label out of it for Udi's JS-2 and then the whole site stopped responding after that).

 

Now it's working fast and so am I. Trying to catch a lot of you thread posters first. But with a few exceptions (Danny, Norman, Jud), the bulk of units going out today and tomorrow will be to all the people who bought a JS-2 or MMK from me in the past--in part because your addresses, orders, and other infer were entered and massaged first.

Still have a sheet of 51 REGEN orders from new folks to enter (though their "cards" are already imported perfectly into both my accounting system and USPS address book).

 

Sure feels good to at least be getting some of these little fellas out the door at last.

 

Ciao,

 

ALEX

[jtwrace]

UPDATE:

About 1 hour ago the USPS site finally started to cooperate (early this morning it too 15 minutes to coax a label out of it for Udi's JS-2 and then the whole site stopped responding after that).

 

Now it's working fast and so am I. Trying to catch a lot of you thread posters first. But with a few exceptions (Danny, Norman, Jud), the bulk of units going out today and tomorrow will be to all the people who bought a JS-2 or MMK from me in the past--in part because your addresses, orders, and other infer were entered and massaged first.

Still have a sheet of 51 REGEN orders from new folks to enter (though their "cards" are already imported perfectly into both my accounting system and USPS address book).

 

Sure feels good to at least be getting some of these little fellas out the door at last.

 

Ciao,

 

ALEX

 

Great! I'm still wondering what I'm going to do this weekend since my Regen will most likely not be here. Hmmm.

[Jud]

Just saw this article this morning... its like a simple 3D printing for dummies app :-)

 

Maybe a good way to design up some simple supports for the Regen.

 

Turn Your Drawings Into 3D-Printable Models With MakerBot's iPad App

 

Very cool!

[Jud]

The Wyrd and the regen are conceptually similar from an upper level standpoint, they are very different in implementation and motivation for the development.

 

From reading what Schiit has posted it seems that their motivation was providing a clean power supply and secondly regenerating the data, whereas my motivation was providing the highest signal quality I could, and secondly providing very clean power.

 

Some of the differences are:

 

***

 

Well there it is, the primary reasons the regen has a better implementation than other devices.

 

John S.

 

Yes, that comment from Superdad points out the similarities (which you referenced above) and the differences (which you didn't) between the Regen and the Wyrd. If something at that level of detail (chip selection, PCB construction, impedance and more) doesn't do it for you, I'm not at all sure what would....

 

 

Well, after John's very thorough explanation, I guess we know now what would do it (for you and me both). Thanks for asking the original question, Jimmy, as it elicited that great explanation.

[JohnSwenson]

John,

 

This reminds me of some DIY amp upgrades I did many years ago by adding PP caps to the +/- rails, close to where the power was actually used, to provide a fast energy storage. Essentially lower impedance power at high (audio) frequencies, through crudely implemented.

 

Is my analogy close to what you are talking about with PDN ? Through I realize you are talking about a much smaller scale, and less about adding energy storage, as reducing losses.

 

 

Also, were you part of the Hovland team ? I thought I saw you in a pic on Uptones new web site.

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

It IS about energy storage, and getting that energy out when needed. So it is a complex dance between storage (capacitance) and inductance (inside capacitors, board traces) and levels of regulation used to decouple sections of storage.

 

Physically small capacitors usually have low inductance, which lets the charge out quickly, but don't hold too much charge. High capacitance caps hold a lot of charge, but have a large inductance as well. The placement of the caps and the board design also add inductance which again limits charge transfer rates.

 

Many people try to get around this by putting different size caps in parallel with each other, but the inductance in the caps interact with each other which cause a high impedance at different frequencies. So in some ways it helps, but in other ways it makes it worse. Putting a regulator in between large and small caps decouples this effect.

 

At a sophisticated level the resistance of caps also come into play. There are several cases where ultr-low ESR caps are the worst ones to use. Some cap makers actually produce ones with the same physical size, capacitance and inductance but different ESR to let you tune these things.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

John,

 

 

Also, were you part of the Hovland team ? I thought I saw you in a pic on Uptones new web site.

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

I did some design work for Hovland about 10 years ago. We were working on a general purpose music player (CD, files, ethernet), it turned out to be a very ambitious project that kept on growing in what they wanted it to do. The company ran into financial problems before I could get it finished.

 

My very first job for Hovland was debugging a new amp design that had major problems. I remember hooking a scope probe up to the circuit, hooking up a dummy load and applying a test signal, it was running fine, I was bending over to look for another spot to hook up the probe when a 9" high flame shot up from the board, mili-meters away from my forehead! When they said it would burn up they were not kidding! It turned out to be a "flame proof" resistor, boy did the manufacturer lie on that one!

 

The solution turned out to be matching the output transistors, something they hadn't been doing previously. It turned out to be a fantastic amp. But I will always remember that flame.

 

John S.