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Dire Need of Speaker Advice


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Under $1000 isn't that much of a challenge, however, and this is just my opinion, stay away from Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff sold at Best Buy. It is almost always a disappointment.

 

Instead, concentrate on the more refined and less mass market speakers available in this price range. Most of them you can buy from online dealers with a 30 day guarantee or similar, so if you don't like them, send them back and try another set. This is a little like having a decent brick and mortar store on your doorstep. :)

 

Here's some of my favorites in this range:

 

Epos Epic 2 Bookshelf Speakers (Pr) at Music Direct

 

Focal Chorus 706V Bookshelf Speakers (Pr) at Music Direct

 

Rega RS1 Bookshelf Speakers (Pr) at Music Direct

 

Focal Chorus 706 Bookshelf Speakers (Pr) at Music Direct

 

PSB Imagine Mini Bookshelf Loudspeakers-Audio Advisor

 

MartinLogan Motion 35XT Bookshelf Speaker (Each)-Audio Advisor These are above your max cost, but the lowest end of the ML line that I enjoy. :)

 

PSB Imagine XB Bookshelf Loudspeakers-Audio Advisor

 

Here is the one I like the best, but it is older looking and sounding than the newer speakers above. I of course, being an old fart, like it and the way it sounds better than most of the others. If you can live with vinyl, well within your cost range too. :)

 

HUMAN Speakers: Model 81

 

 

 

All of the above sound wonderful, but are a little bass shy to some folks. Depends upon what you like to hear, and how much and deep you need the bass to go to be satisfied. Most of them are low enough in cost to afford a reasonable - though not wall shaking! - Subwoofer to go with them if that is the case. Figure between $400-$600 for a decent sub if you really need one. (I expect you might not.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

After creating a detailed list of necessities (including mother-in-law's household), I've decided to cap the cost at $1000. Though the Maggie's offer much, I'm convinced the socks would end up in my cat's hairballs & stool. Those cats are evil.

 

Since I don't have access to auditioning speakers outside of Magnolia's, I'm still considering DefTech. The local store doesn't stock the Studio Monitor 65 but they do have the 55 which has a single 6.5" woofer, 1" aluminum tweeter, and passive radiator. I haven't had the time to audition it, but it's there waiting when I do. The reviews are outstanding, and at 32-30kHz, 90dB, and 8 ohms, they should be very easy to drive.

 

An almost-local craigslister (45 miles) is selling a 1 year old, but used less than a month, pair of B&W 685's with stands - all in new condition with boxes for $500 and is throwing in a $200 DefTech sw in same cond w/box. I believe Magnolia's stocks those, but would still like to hear any opinions on these little speakers. Awwwe, what the heck, here's his pitch:

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I'd strike the Imagine Mini and XB off my list. Small speakers, small sound. They sound strained when turned up to moderate volumes and lack extension. The XB looks like their Image bookshelf rebranded to fit higher up in their food chain. However I'd take a serious look at the Focals..

Computer >> Pioneer VSX 520 >> PSB Imagine B

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I'd strike the Imagine Mini and XB off my list. Small speakers, small sound. They sound strained when turned up to moderate volumes and lack extension. The XB looks like their Image bookshelf rebranded to fit higher up in their food chain. However I'd take a serious look at the Focals..
Is that always true though? I have been looking around at a lot of speakers lately, and almost all of the highest regarded speakers combine a 1" tweeter with a 5" mid or thereabouts.

 

For low frequency extension most speaker designs now seem to be moving towards three-way designs adding larger woofers rather than using a two-way design and increasing the size of the mid-range driver to 6/8".

 

And as you get higher-end, they seem to shift towards coaxial designs for a 1" tweeter surrounded by a 5" woofer.

 

Perhaps that is just because I've mainly been focusing on active monitors and DSP-integrated speakers, rather than passive speakers though.

Honestly, unless you're getting something unique like the Magnepans, passive speakers almost seem like throwing away money once you get to a certain price-point. Especially if you plan on using room correction, since doing that in the speaker can optimize each driver individually, rather than only being able to optimize each speaker.

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Is that always true though? I have been looking around at a lot of speakers lately, and almost all of the highest regarded speakers combine a 1" tweeter with a 5" mid or thereabouts.

 

For low frequency extension most speaker designs now seem to be moving towards three-way designs adding larger woofers rather than using a two-way design and increasing the size of the mid-range driver to 6/8".

 

And as you get higher-end, they seem to shift towards coaxial designs for a 1" tweeter surrounded by a 5" woofer.

 

Perhaps that is just because I've mainly been focusing on active monitors and DSP-integrated speakers, rather than passive speakers though.

Honestly, unless you're getting something unique like the Magnepans, passive speakers almost seem like throwing away money once you get to a certain price-point. Especially if you plan on using room correction, since doing that in the speaker can optimize each driver individually, rather than only being able to optimize each speaker.

 

I think the reasons why those speakers are highly praised are not solely due to the size of their drivers. Smaller drivers are usually more controlled, but equally as important are the cabinets they are housed in. A lot of well performing speakers have minimal front baffles and have some sort of curve to them. This minimizes diffraction, in turn lending to a cleaner sound. I think the "small speakers, small sound" bit is true, because in almost all cases, whenever you have "sister" products such as the Imagine Mini and the Imagine B, the smaller of the two will have downsized drivers. Whether this is a good thing is entirely subjective (and depends on its intended use). However objectively speaking, for the smaller unit to produce the same amount of sound, it will have to play louder, thus risking higher distortion and excursion (most do not have additional rubber to accommodate this extra excursion).

 

Extension could be done two ways I think. Directly, using a driver, or indirectly, using transmission lines/ports. A large woofer (10"+) and a small tweeter would seem like a poor match because its too little to do too much. Very reminiscent of bose when you try to have a driver play above and beyond its capabilities. Dedicated drivers are always the better way to go.

 

I believe coaxial designs are done to have the listener perceive a single source of sound instead of 2 or 3 sources. As far as coaxial=expensive, I think the KEF LS50 would prove that wrong. $1500 is significant, but in audio terms, its $15.

 

Yeah, powered studio monitors tend to have active amplification a lot (PMC, ATC etc.). Again, whether this is a good thing is entirely subjective. I've read on forums that Americans are more closed to the idea of powered speakers whereas Europeans are more open. And a sidenote, pro monitors often pair monster amps with their drivers 2-300W amps for tweetwes and 4-500W for mids and woofers. Probably aids greatly to their excellent driver control and response.

 

Oh yes, diminishing marginal returns certain have a place in audio. Personally, I believe 10,000 for an entire system is a good cutoff point. Some people (me included) are a little partial against having any sort of EQ running in their chain and would rather have the driver and cabinet engineering take care of that

Computer >> Pioneer VSX 520 >> PSB Imagine B

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If you want to blow the whole $1500 then look long and hard at the Kef R300's in beautiful Rosewood. Find a dealer that will take $1500 (retail is $1800) and hook them up to a decent amp and you'll be in heaven.

 

Hi-Fi Speakers - R Series - Fact Sheets - Bookshelf - R300 - KEF United States

 

Alternatively, the Definitive Tech SM65's under a grand are superb also. GREAT value, just not quite as precise sounding or pretty as the Kefs.

 

Second this. I found a pair of the R 300s for just over $1500. The mid bass is vastly superior to the LS 50s.

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...however, and this is just my opinion, stay away from Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff sold at Best Buy. It is almost always a disappointment.

 

 

Does this include the newly designed ($700) B&W 685 S2 reviewed by whathifi here? No need to upgrade amplification with these. Same with the Epos Epic 2 which look particularly good on sale now at $400. If I could hear the Epic 2's locally to verify their sonic goodness, they would be a no-brain'r. Even better to compare these together but that isn't in the cards.

Win10 Sweetwater recording studio PC running JRMC > Soundcraft Ui24r 24-track digital mixer > JBL LSR308 via Magomi Balanced XLR cable pair

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[...] Small speakers, small sound. They sound strained when turned up to moderate volumes and lack extension. [...]

 

In my experience, the 'size' of the sound is mostly determined by a.) the positioning of the speakers within the room and b.) how much air is getting moved in the bass regions. For example a 'back horn' design with a 4" single driver (correctly positioned) can completely fill your listening room with convincing stereo sound. IME.

 

So much fun to help someone else buy speakers!

2013 MacBook Pro Retina -> {Pure Music | Audirvana} -> {Dragonfly Red v.1} -> AKG K-702 or Sennheiser HD650 headphones.

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In my experience, the 'size' of the sound is mostly determined by a.) the positioning of the speakers within the room and b.) how much air is getting moved in the bass regions. For example a 'back horn' design with a 4" single driver (correctly positioned) can completely fill your listening room with convincing stereo sound.

 

True, but horn speakers are quite a bit larger than designs with a simple port or sealed designs. I suppose I was referring to the size of the entire speaker and not just the drivers.

 

Small speakers coupled with large horns tend to give an airy-er sound with more "jump" factor

 

Computer >> Pioneer VSX 520 >> PSB Imagine B

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Oh right, those full sized horns can fill a theater, no problem. And amazing things they are, too.

 

But what I was thinking about are the small back-loaded horns-- such as the Horn Shoppe speakers -- which are only 2 and a half feet tall and about 6 inches wide.

 

Love those big horns though. :-)

2013 MacBook Pro Retina -> {Pure Music | Audirvana} -> {Dragonfly Red v.1} -> AKG K-702 or Sennheiser HD650 headphones.

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Under $1000 isn't that much of a challenge, however, and this is just my opinion, stay away from Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff sold at Best Buy. It is almost always a disappointment.

 

 

)

 

Seriously? If you are saying stay away from those then may as well add Kef, Paradigm, PSB, Focal to that list!

David

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Seriously? If you are saying stay away from those then may as well add Kef, Paradigm, PSB, Focal to that list!

 

Kef, Paradigm, PSB, and Focal are deucedly difficult to find at an Best Buy down here. I would not include then in the "to be avoided" list though. ;)

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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My point exactly. Neither would I include the brands you decided were "to be avoided".

 

Just opinion on my part, I might not have been clear about that.

 

*I* would avoid buying those brands at Best Buy because of past experience with them, but a lot of other people are happy with them indeed. :)

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Just opinion on my part, I might not have been clear about that.

 

*I* would avoid buying those brands at Best Buy because of past experience with them, but a lot of other people are happy with them indeed. :)

-Paul

 

Making recommendations is always tricky. Doing it negatively ("stay away from Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff sold at Best Buy is almost always a disappointment.") is never good for business for anyone and is usually looked down on as the last resort in getting your product recognized. Time and again it has been proven that that method rubs people the wrong way and is more detrimental than simple, positive feedback.

 

I'm assuming (hoping) you have spent quite a bit of time with all of the "Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff" that you are not only dismissing but actually telling someone that they are not any good. Simply NOT recommending (or even mentioning) a product and recommending another is I feel a bit fairer approach to things but hey, the negative approach has worked for some companies too (although it appears to be backfiring on Samsung).

David

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Making recommendations is always tricky. Doing it negatively ("stay away from Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff sold at Best Buy is almost always a disappointment.") is never good for business for anyone and is usually looked down on as the last resort in getting your product recognized. Time and again it has been proven that that method rubs people the wrong way and is more detrimental than simple, positive feedback.

 

I'm assuming (hoping) you have spent quite a bit of time with all of the "Definitive Technology, Energy, and the *low end* B&W and Martin Logan stuff" that you are not only dismissing but actually telling someone that they are not any good. Simply NOT recommending (or even mentioning) a product and recommending another is I feel a bit fairer approach to things but hey, the negative approach has worked for some companies too (although it appears to be backfiring on Samsung).

 

Yes, I am cheap, and Best Buy / Magnolia offers a good way to look at and purchase some lower end gear without a critical impact on the bank account. As well, they offer free returns no-questions-asked on all that gear. And usually, I wind up picking up stuff for friends and then helping them install it. More experience with the very low end gear from Best Buy than I would actually wish. Or at least than my poor ears can stand. :)

 

That's not a cut at Best Buy, it is just that the really low end gear they sell sounds like one would expect - really low end.

 

Still you present very good advice, and I will heed it in the future.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I've narrowed it down between the B&W 685 S2 and Epos Epic 2.

 

 

I visited a high end audio dealership this morning where I heard PeachTree, Quad, and a few other brands, but really liked a little $800 pair of Dynaudio DM 2/6's. I wish I could A/B these with the B&W 685 S2's and Epos Epic 2's. Anybody familiar with these speakers?

Win10 Sweetwater recording studio PC running JRMC > Soundcraft Ui24r 24-track digital mixer > JBL LSR308 via Magomi Balanced XLR cable pair

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I visited a high end audio dealership this morning where I heard PeachTree, Quad, and a few other brands, but really liked a little $800 pair of Dynaudio DM 2/6's. I wish I could A/B these with the B&W 685 S2's and Epos Epic 2's. Anybody familiar with these speakers?

 

Those are all good options but only you can decide which you'd like to have in your home. Try to hear as many of the speakers you are considering as possible because nothing anyone can say can take the place of you actually hearing them and choosing which YOU prefer. That's why there are so many manufacturers of speakers. They are possibly the most personal choice to make in a hifi setup.

 

All the ones you mention are valid and from good manufacturers.

David

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Yes, I am cheap, and Best Buy / Magnolia offers a good way to look at and purchase some lower end gear without a critical impact on the bank account. As well, they offer free returns no-questions-asked on all that gear. And usually, I wind up picking up stuff for friends and then helping them install it. More experience with the very low end gear from Best Buy than I would actually wish. Or at least than my poor ears can stand. :)

 

That's not a cut at Best Buy, it is just that the really low end gear they sell sounds like one would expect - really low end.

 

Still you present very good advice, and I will heed it in the future.

 

I like Best Buy. They do a better job at presenting and explaining Apple products than our local Mac based store that pretty much is nothing but Apple products. I am a frequent customer at our local Best Buy. I usually end up piling up enough rewards points for an iPad Mini or something similar pretty quickly.

 

PS. Last I looked B&W didn't really make anything cheap.

David

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Those are all good options but only you can decide which you'd like to have in your home. Try to hear as many of the speakers you are considering as possible because nothing anyone can say can take the place of you actually hearing them and choosing which YOU prefer. That's why there are so many manufacturers of speakers. They are possibly the most personal choice to make in a hifi setup.

 

All the ones you mention are valid and from good manufacturers.

 

This.

 

You'd be surprised how much of a difference treatment/room geometry (or the lack thereof) affects the sound

Computer >> Pioneer VSX 520 >> PSB Imagine B

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I like Best Buy. They do a better job at presenting and explaining Apple products than our local Mac based store that pretty much is nothing but Apple products. I am a frequent customer at our local Best Buy. I usually end up piling up enough rewards points for an iPad Mini or something similar pretty quickly.

 

PS. Last I looked B&W didn't really make anything cheap.

 

I tend to agree with you, except our Apple stores here are much MUCH better than the best of the Best Buys, as pertains to Apple gear. The Apple store we used up in Ann Arbor was inside a mall and it was incredibly poor compared to the ones down here. I can understand where you are coming from! :)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Those are all good options but only you can decide which you'd like to have in your home. Try to hear as many of the speakers you are considering as possible because nothing anyone can say can take the place of you actually hearing them and choosing which YOU prefer. That's why there are so many manufacturers of speakers. They are possibly the most personal choice to make in a hifi setup.

 

All the ones you mention are valid and from good manufacturers.

 

And bring your own music!

Analog: Koetsu Rosewood > VPI Aries 3 w/SDS > EAR 834P > EAR 834L: Audiodesk cleaner

Digital Fun: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (JRMC) SOtM USB > Lynx Hilo > EAR 834L

Digital Serious: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (HQPlayer) Ethernet > SMS-100 NAA > Lampi DSD L4 G5 > EAR 834L

Digital Disc: Oppo BDP 95 > EAR 834L

Output: EAR 834L > Xilica XP4080 DSP > Odessey Stratos Mono Extreme > Legacy Aeris

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