Jump to content
IGNORED

Poll: speakers parallel or inclined to the listener?


How are your speakers positioned?  

91 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

I pretty much always kept my speakers (cf. signature) totally parallel. Most high studios I've been to do the same. Just a small number of them tend to slightly point the speakers at you, not 45 degrees obviously, but maybe 10-20% from fully parallel.

 

I'm now experimenting for the first time with this. I had my speakers always strictly parallel. With the inclined position, everything seems to be a bit more direct, however, stereo image is not very deep. Still need to do some more listening, but was interested in people's opinion about this.

 

And experimentation to taste is the way to go with so many variables at play. There's simply no set rule or model for predictive speaker response based on horizontal or vertical axis positioning. There are some physical limits or expectations based on physics though.

 

Tweeters.....most these days being 1" or similiar domes begin to 'beam' their energy at 11khz and continue to do so increasingly higher in frequency.

 

Cone and some devices have identical horizontal and vertical dispersion......placement on the baffle and the baffle itself determine the actual horizontal and vertical response

 

Our hearing is parabolic in acuity being most sensitive between 1khz and 4khz, rolling off above and below, the rate depending on age, gender and other physical factors.

 

Sound at and below 230hz in a closed 3d space is for the most part omnidirectional in nature and comprises the modal region. Doesn't matter where the driver is, but more important the boundaries.

 

Directivity is probobly the single most important concept in modern speaker design. For audiophiles and similiar, it makes for an essential and interesting read. Take the time if nothing else in this hobby of misconception, misinformation and mass hysteria.

Link to comment

A well designed speaker should produce:

- flat(ish) frequency response on-axis

- balanced response as you move away from that should be evenly balanced

 

Some designers feel that the ouptut should be reduced where the ear is more sensitive (around 2-3KHz) as this will reduce room interaction in those frequencies.

 

Here's a good example (from Stereophile):

 

Infin360fig4.jpg

 

The central 0º line is not flat in reality but it has been flatened to show the frequency response deviation as you move from the axis.

 

Now here's a bad example (from Stereophile):

 

710Wilfig5.jpg

 

See how uneven the balance is outside of the radiation axis.

 

In the first case, pointing the speakers straight will only reduce the intensity of sounds above 1KHz while the second speakers produces all sorts of dips and peaks right where the human hearing is more sensitive...

 

Now would you believe if I tol you that the second speaker is over 40 times more expensive than the first one?

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
Shouldn't the tweeters be aimed directly at the listening position, to avoid off-axis treble roll-off?

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

I personally get much better imaging from my Cabasse Rigas when I do so, as specified in the manual. The situation may be different for tweeters that have milder off-axis roll-off.

 

Recordings are also supposed to be made with the expectation that speakers will point towards the listener, as specified in international standards.

Link to comment

Hello,

This subject is like most audio related subjects a matter of long discussions. On my side I have Dali's Mentor 2 speakers and found them best sounding slightly toed-in towards my listening position even the manual say "put them in parallel". They have twin tweeter meaning one dome and one ribbon - quite unique design in small standers, but sound very, very well.

 

Because my room is difficult in a sense that speakers are on the long wall with uneven placement against the side walls (I know shouldn't be like this, but WAF is stronger), slightly toeing them helps me to reduce the interferences on the sound waves from the side walls - at least to my ears. Of course I am quite often experimenting with speaker placement changing distance between them and amount of toe in - depends on the mood and record actually playing ;-), but when I put them in parallel I lost some spatiality and clear instrument placements - just slightly, but I can hear that, that's why I decided to leave them toed-in a bit.

 

One tweak I still wanted to do is to put them on lower stands to have ribbon tweeter on the same height as my ears - now they are around 3cm too high IMHO. All depends and you can easily get to the loop when changing record in you player as well unfortunately.

--

Krzysztof Maj

http://mkrzych.wordpress.com/

"Music is the highest form of art. It is also the most noble. It is human emotion, captured, crystallised, encased… and then passed on to others." - By Ken Ishiwata

Link to comment

I think that most typical, well designed, forward-radiating speakers should always be toe'd-in by a fair amount if not at the listening spot.

That's how they'll perform at their best.

 

But since many speakers have exagerated high-midrange and/or treble and many (pop and rock) recordings are overly bright, reducing toe-in may sound subjectively better.

Alternatively one can use tone controls, digital EQ; some use cables with "lesser" high frequency conductivity.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment

I just went thru this exercise today trying to dial in my speaker positioning a little bit more. I bought this nifty tool from Lowes to help in determining how un-level my speakers were despite them looking straight.

 

I removed the little knob that came attached to the device which allowed me to rest its flat side on the bottom of my speakers which are elevated via spikes off the floor and in my case the bottom of the speaker is the only point on the whole cabinet that is flat enough to perform such a test.

 

To my dismay, the speakers were not perfectly parallel in relation to the floor and were also raked forward a bit more than I was expecting. I'll be doing some more listening tonight but a quick test already shows promise in that the soundstage seems more focused now then before.

 

032886908590.jpg

Link to comment

Rather than trying to level the base of the speakers, you should try to have the tweeter axis pointing at your ears.

Your (803D) speakers' frequency response does change a lot with tilting:

 

2r5yjjr.jpg

 

GREEN and BLUE curves show the response 7º below and above tweeter axis respectively and this does have a drastic effect right where your ear is most sensitive (2-6kHz):

 

30trv9w.jpg

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment

After seeing Fleetwood Mac in concert on Friday, yesterday I was listening to Rumours (DVD-A) and felt Stevie's vocals were a little recessed on Dreams. Did some internets searching and found one thread where someone felt it was an issue of too much toe in with certain speakers. So I reduced the toe in on my Focal 1028BEs and she popped forward. Not only that it seems everything became more 3d like and easier to pick out in the sound stage.

 

Cheapest and best upgrade I've done to my system so far.

 

It's been a while but I think I toed them in the amount I originally did because one speaker is a little over 2 feet from a side wall. I was trying compensate for that one side.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

Link to comment

That seems very strange because toe'ing-out usually exagerates the "dip" in the frequency response at crossover-points/drivers' top-of-band...the image should have receded, not avanced.

 

Toe'ing-out might "generate" more "soundstage" (usually via sidewall reflections) but it will reduce tonal accuracy.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
Rather than trying to level the base of the speakers, you should try to have the tweeter axis pointing at your ears.

Your (803D) speakers' frequency response does change a lot with tilting:

 

2r5yjjr.jpg

 

GREEN and BLUE curves show the response 7º below and above tweeter axis respectively and this does have a drastic effect right where your ear is most sensitive (2-6kHz):

 

30trv9w.jpg

 

R

 

THe 803d is terribly flawed by design in that crossover point is 4khz for where the 6" midrange is beaming HF content and the off axis response is non existent. The final result is a response dictated by a nasty, peaky forward lobe right where our ears are most sensitive to such.

 

........but again, listening is a subjective experience so..........

Link to comment
That seems very strange because toe'ing-out usually exagerates the "dip" in the frequency response at crossover-points/drivers' top-of-band...the image should have receded, not avanced.

 

Toe'ing-out might "generate" more "soundstage" (usually via sidewall reflections) but it will reduce tonal accuracy.

 

R

 

 

Depends on the crossover topology and how well the drivers acoustic centers were aligned in the design process. For 2nd order filters with 180 degrees phase overlap, the tweeter requires reverse polarity. If the dome is closer to the listener than the cone, there's an on axis null that's very audible, a tradeoff the mfgr might choose to accept where the system is peaked on axis, but 10 degrees off flat.

 

Again, for those reading this thread, there's NO set rule here. Experiment at will to find what works best for you and your space. Unfortunately in some cases, a speaker may not work in a space no matter it's placement.

Link to comment
Depends on the crossover topology and how well the drivers acoustic centers were aligned in the design process. For 2nd order filters with 180 degrees phase overlap, the tweeter requires reverse polarity. If the dome is closer to the listener than the cone, there's an on axis null that's very audible, a tradeoff the mfgr might choose to accept where the system is peaked on axis, but 10 degrees off flat.

 

Again, for those reading this thread, there's NO set rule here. Experiment at will to find what works best for you and your space. Unfortunately in some cases, a speaker may not work in a space no matter it's placement.

 

I wouldn't consider such speakers (peak on axis, flat at 10º lateral) to be "adequately" designed.

In any case, woofers (in most boxes) usually have narrow dispersion at the top of their passband and you need to point them at the listening spot to get flat FR.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment

I am extremely lucky that the manufacturer of my speakers provides quite thorough owner's manual instructions on toe-in, angle up or down, and myriad other aspects of set-up. See http://vandersteen.com//media/files/Manuals/3asigmanual.pdf . Some of this information, particularly regarding room placement, will also serve owners of other speakers. Specific instructions re toe-in are on page 9; re angle up or down, page 6; re room placement, pages 7-10.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
I pretty much always kept my speakers (cf. signature) totally parallel. Most high studios I've been to do the same. Just a small number of them tend to slightly point the speakers at you, not 45 degrees obviously, but maybe 10-20% from fully parallel.

 

I'm now experimenting for the first time with this. I had my speakers always strictly parallel. With the inclined position, everything seems to be a bit more direct, however, stereo image is not very deep. Still need to do some more listening, but was interested in people's opinion about this.

From both my experience and info from Get Better Sound:

 

Toeing-in of speakers has two effects:

1- Speaker-specific effect: Change tonality

radiation patterns are narrower for high frequency drivers - so the more direct the position to your ears, the brighter the sound. Different speaker designs have different radiation patterns of course, and it also matters what distance you're from the speakers vs the speaker separation

 

2- Room effect: Direct vs reflected sound

As you tow in the speakers, given the radiation pattern you will get more energy directly from the speaker thus you involve the room less. By doing this you will loose some "depth" - but that's not depth that is in the recording per-se, although I understand you might like the effect.

 

Having said this, just as important is:

3- Where you sit in your room

4- Your room acoustics

5- Separation between speakers vs distance to your listening position

 

The most amazing thing to me was the effect of '5': The bigger the distance between speakers the broader the sound stage, but the "thinner" the sound. Piano will just not sound right if you separate the speakers too much.

 

Bottomline: it's a tradeof between all points above, you have to play with it until it works.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

Link to comment

FWIW.....Magico suggests, once the speakers have been "voiced" into the room for optimal bass and midrange, (small movements into the room listening for bass expression and small movements from the side wall for image) that the speaker form an isosceles triangle with the listener. Further specifying and underlining that the listener be exactly equidistant between the two.

WDW

Link to comment

The Vandersteen manual I linked above has some very good, practical pointers (using fairly quick, simple measurements and a little elementary math) regarding how to optimize your points 1-5, Miguel.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
FWIW.....Magico suggests, once the speakers have been "voiced" into the room for optimal bass and midrange, (small movements into the room listening for bass expression and small movements from the side wall for image) that the speaker form an isosceles triangle with the listener. Further specifying and underlining that the listener be exactly equidistant between the two.

WDW

 

Most manufacturers have been suggesting the same for years but I had never seen it written with such high-end delicacy... :)

Très posh.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
Rather than trying to level the base of the speakers, you should try to have the tweeter axis pointing at your ears.

 

+1

 

The listening position on my couch is unusually low and, with the speakers level, the axis of the tweeters ends up well above my ear level. I placed a laser level on top of the speakers and aimed it at my listening position (beware, avoid looking directly at the laser). I then raised the rear spikes and lowered front ones to lower the tweeter axis. Knowing the vertical offset between the laser beam and the centre of the tweeters I could then determine the tweeter height at the listening position by viewing the laser beam on a piece of paper and accounting for the offset. With progressive adjustments, I was able to achieve the desired result.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

Link to comment

Well folks this is probably the cheapest audio tweak you will find, and getting it right is huge. As for what's right for you it depends on your speakers, room, listening position, and your preference. Take your time and listen, this part can be fun and it's easy - a lot more fun than trying to hear the difference between good PCM and DSD, or cables for that matter, or a whole bunch of other things we debate on CA.

Analog: Koetsu Rosewood > VPI Aries 3 w/SDS > EAR 834P > EAR 834L: Audiodesk cleaner

Digital Fun: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (JRMC) SOtM USB > Lynx Hilo > EAR 834L

Digital Serious: DAS > CAPS v3 w/LPS (HQPlayer) Ethernet > SMS-100 NAA > Lampi DSD L4 G5 > EAR 834L

Digital Disc: Oppo BDP 95 > EAR 834L

Output: EAR 834L > Xilica XP4080 DSP > Odessey Stratos Mono Extreme > Legacy Aeris

Phones: EAR 834L > Little Dot Mk ii > Senheiser HD 800

Link to comment
Most manufacturers have been suggesting the same for years but I had never seen it written with such high-end delicacy... :)

Très posh.

R

Yes, and it's wrong as well. There's no chance that an equilateral triangle is the best solution to every room and every setup.

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

Link to comment
The Vandersteen manual I linked above has some very good, practical pointers (using fairly quick, simple measurements and a little elementary math) regarding how to optimize your points 1-5, Miguel.

Possibly, but there's no better setup guide that I have found than Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound".

NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock 

SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono 

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo

Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono

Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul

system pics

Link to comment
I wouldn't consider such speakers (peak on axis, flat at 10º lateral) to be "adequately" designed.

 

Why not?

 

If a speaker peaks some frequencies off-axis these will be greatly exagerated by walls, floor and ceiling reflexes.

The frequency balance will be extremely room and positioning dependent and imaging would be affected.

Not good, unless you like the sound of your listening room.

 

Besides, I believe that the dispersion pattern of the drivers' passband best overlaps when they're facing the listener (but I could be wrong).

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...