Musicophile Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I pretty much always kept my speakers (cf. signature) totally parallel. Most high studios I've been to do the same. Just a small number of them tend to slightly point the speakers at you, not 45 degrees obviously, but maybe 10-20% from fully parallel. I'm now experimenting for the first time with this. I had my speakers always strictly parallel. With the inclined position, everything seems to be a bit more direct, however, stereo image is not very deep. Still need to do some more listening, but was interested in people's opinion about this. Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
ALRAINBOW Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 In general if speakers are pointed at you , you loose imaging or staging . Keeping the parallel is best but not for all speakers. For my infinities its a must to keep,them straight and they give the best imaging and staging for me. Speaker placement is something of an art but moving things around is must to achieve the best of any given speakers . The walls , ceiling and floor is also very important in this. An example is my infinity setups must have live walls behind them . And mostly live walls all around them . But behind my seats needs to be dead . There is also dispersion type wall treatments al Link to comment
wanta911 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I have mine with the very slightest of toe-ins and I mean slight.....just a few degrees of toe-in and 3 meters apart. At first glance they look straight. It took me months to get it to this point after trying most toe-in scenarios and numerous positional changes relative to walls. Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Many setup "gurus" suggest starting with the speakers pointed at a "ghost point" about 5 feet behind the listening position and adjust from there. YMMV. It is mine are very close to that. The real key in setting up your system and your room is to get the frequency response as flat as possible. Everything else will fall into place from that. Just don't leave a hole in the sound stage right where you are sitting! This link (only one I found quickly) is for multi-channel HT, but it echoes the "5 feet behind listening position" statement. Mark your floor with different locations that you try so you can always "go back". Happy Listening! https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Link: Loudspeaker Placement Guide | Audioholics https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
dallasjustice Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Every speaker is different. Some are better pointed more at the listener and some aren't. Good thing it's free to try it both ways. Mine are better pointed down and toed in a couple of inches. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Link to comment
4est Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 It would appear as if incline (pitch) is being confused for yaw (toe in), and the OP may wish to clarify. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Musicophile Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 It would appear as if incline (pitch) is being confused for yaw (toe in), and the OP may wish to clarify. Happy to clarify, I indeed meant toe in, I.e. Turning them horizontally, not vertically, around the vertical axis Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
dallasjustice Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Happy to clarify, I indeed meant toe in, I.e. Turning them horizontally, not vertically, around the vertical axis Right. Some folks call incline "rake"; just to make things even more confusing. I always thought a rake was a Don Juan. Who knew? :-) THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 dj, are the Y-Gs tall enough that you need to point them down to get an even frequency response? https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
dallasjustice Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 dj, are the Y-Gs tall enough that you need to point them down to get an even frequency response? Yep. I sit 9'6" ear to tweeter. They sound best with the rake pointed directly down to ear. I think the Stereophile vertical axis measurements support this as well although I haven't done any detailed measurements off axis of the tweeter. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I bet they sound sweet! Maybe you could go back to vertical and then sitting on a throne would bring your ears to the correct height. LOL Definitely nice setup you have there! https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
dallasjustice Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I bet they sound sweet! Maybe you could go back to vertical and then sitting on a throne would bring your ears to the correct height. LOL Definitely nice setup you have there! Your picture in the boat reminds me of a story that Yoav told me about the anat studio speakers. He told me he once bolted them to the floor inside a huge yacht. I don't know how he did it though. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX Link to comment
Guidof Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 @Musicophile: I think it depends very much on speakers and room. With my current ML SL3s and a small room, they work best with a slight toe-in. My prior Spica Angelus (and a larger room) sounded best aimed directly at the listening position. My bedroom speakers are fine in a parallel setup. Patient experimentation seems to be the key to optimizing this parameter. Regards, Guido F. For my system details, please see my profile. Thank you. Link to comment
Musicophile Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 @Musicophile: I think it depends very much on speakers and room. With my current ML SL3s and a small room, they work best with a slight toe-in. My prior Spica Angelus (and a larger room) sounded best aimed directly at the listening position. My bedroom speakers are fine in a parallel setup. Patient experimentation seems to be the key to optimizing this parameter. Regards, Guido F. Tried the toe in, didn't like it. Back to parallel now. Check out my blog at musicophilesblog.com - From Keith Jarrett to Johannes Brahms Link to comment
wgscott Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Shouldn't the tweeters be aimed directly at the listening position, to avoid off-axis treble roll-off? Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I'm with Guido. Every setup (and set of ears!) is different. Most speakers are measured and tuned using an anechoic chamber. That's a far cry from my listening space! Yes, most speakers do roll off when measured off axis. But your room does funny things to to sound. Tune your speaker position, toe-in and listening position to your ears. I have used an Omni-mic measurement system to double check what I found to be the most balanced (frequency flatness and sound stage) by ear. It's not far off from dead flat with a little (+2 dB) mid-bass hump. That's the whole thing you read about SQ in our little world, everybody's ears, room, cable, electrical power, etc. are different and we get to debate about it! I have a hard enough time thinking my audio setups sound the same day to day! Do what works for you. https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
wanta911 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Shouldn't the tweeters be aimed directly at the listening position, to avoid off-axis treble roll-off? I really think it depends on the speaker. I found that off-axis sounded best for me in my setup with the Diamond tweeters. This was before I looked at the B&W specs - dispersion over 60 degree arc within -2db of reference. So if I am getting some sort of roll-off, then so be it. It sounds pretty damn good Link to comment
speavler Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I found I prefer to set the speakers far apart and toed in, pointed to my shoulders. This is my setup with my Tektons. Speaker dependent, though, as my Gallos have a wider dispersion and have little to no toe in at all. Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Its basic geometry. A planar speaker in the near field produces a planer wave so is best when parallel. Cone speakers with their smaller drivers are closer to a point source so changing the direction of the center of the point source arc does not change phase relationships if both speakers are in the same plane for point source origination. It will distort R-L balance if you aren't in center position Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Melvin Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Different designs need different placement so I didn't vote. I use mine as follows: - Maggies get slightly toed in. - Mark & Daniels Ruby sound best fully toed in. - the Ohm's are pseudo/omni and remain parallel. Link to comment
beanbag Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Shouldn't the tweeters be aimed directly at the listening position, to avoid off-axis treble roll-off? Not always. Some tweeters beam excessively, and are a bit more "smooth" off axis. Some speakers, like Martin Logan curved electrostatic panels, actually have a bit more HF off axis due to geometric cancellation effects. Link to comment
Allan F Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Every speaker is different. Some are better pointed more at the listener and some aren't. Good thing it's free to try it both ways. Mine are better pointed down and toed in a couple of inches. +1 To optimize speaker placement you have to experiment to see if or how much toe-in produces the best sound. My speakers sound best when toed-in so that I can see just a small portion of the inside surfaces from the listening position. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
4est Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 One may want to kook into Duke Lejune (sp) of Audio Kinesis in Audio Circle. There are different methods depending the speaker type. He does a lot in this area. Tried the toe in, didn't like it. Back to parallel now. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
monteverdi Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Toe in depends on the polar response of the speaker. The polar response describes the horizontal loudness variation at different frequencies of different speakers but it is difficult to find complete measurements but frequency response curves at 0º, 15º and 30º should give a reasonable indication of the speakers horizontal response. A lot of speakers have a narrow high frequency response so require toe in to the listening position but many tweeter have a rise above 10kHz and less toe in often helps. So toe in is also a matter of taste (bright - dull). But lateral response also determines 1st reflections on the room sides and therefore toe in influences room acoustics. My speakers have a wide frequency lateral response but I use some toe in to reduce reflections from the side walls. Link to comment
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