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Funding? making SACD ripping available through USB!


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Dear Mr Wicked,

 

Great idea! Can I ask a stupid question? With a new USB version, is there a chance to modify the ripping process in order to burn sacd-r discs playable in ALL players? I understand that the burning process will also need modification.

 

Thank you very much!

 

What does "playable in ALL players" mean? If he created a way to burn SACDs do you have a source for blanks?

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What does "playable in ALL players" mean? If he created a way to burn SACDs do you have a source for blanks?

Sorry if my question is too stupid.. IMHO the new USB connection can potentially enhance our means to investigate sacd behavior in the Sony bd drive. FW upgrade of some sacd players can switch off PSP validation. Maybe there is a way to make sacd-r's that are more compatible with the other players. Dreamer?

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Sorry if my question is too stupid.. IMHO the new USB connection can potentially enhance our means to investigate sacd behavior in the Sony bd drive. FW upgrade of some sacd players can switch off PSP validation. Maybe there is a way to make sacd-r's that are more compatible with the other players. Dreamer?

 

That's not going to happen, unless.. unless you are able to write the SACD "lead-in". I'm not an expert on this topic but I believe the firmwares are patched to ignore the lead-in. I have no idea if "normal" writers are capable of writing the lead-in. The second is disk encryption, but I believe this is not as important as there are disks out there that have no encryption at all and only have the "lead-in".

 

I will be on a two week holiday and we are currently at 90, which is awesome already.. When I get back I hope we will be at 100+, let's see what happens..

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That's not going to happen, unless.. unless you are able to write the SACD "lead-in". I'm not an expert on this topic but I believe the firmwares are patched to ignore the lead-in. I have no idea if "normal" writers are capable of writing the lead-in. The second is disk encryption, but I believe this is not as important as there are disks out there that have no encryption at all and only have the "lead-in".

 

I will be on a two week holiday and we are currently at 90, which is awesome already.. When I get back I hope we will be at 100+, let's see what happens..

 

Thank you. I hope that in the near future we will be able to make sacd-r's (ver. 2) with the proper lead-in and capability of playback on most SACD players. I expect that the new USB device will help to solve this challenging problem. I'm in!

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Thank you. I hope that in the near future we will be able to make sacd-r's (ver. 2) with the proper lead-in and capability of playback on most SACD players. I expect that the new USB device will help to solve this challenging problem. I'm in!

Anatolio ... one thing "we" have to be careful here is the reasoning behind wanting this ...

 

This is purely aimed at people wanting to extract the DSD music from a SACD following a "fair use" philosophy so they can play back on a DSD DAC via music files. There is no desire (as far as I can see) to create new SACDs for playback on disk players.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Anatolio ... one thing "we" have to be careful here is the reasoning behind wanting this ...

 

This is purely aimed at people wanting to extract the DSD music from a SACD following a "fair use" philosophy so they can play back on a DSD DAC via music files. There is no desire (as far as I can see) to create new SACDs for playback on disk players.

 

Eloise

 

Eloise

There may be a demand for this kind of thing (illegal though) as the Usenet is awash with SACD-R ISOs that are playable in many players. There was even firmware available to make the burned to DVD ISO's playable in my previous Oppo 981 HD.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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If it were up to me, I'd stick to the fair use aspect and keep the wolves at bay....

Eloise

There may be a demand for this kind of thing (illegal though) as the Usenet is awash with SACD-R ISOs that are playable in many players. There was even firmware available to make the burned to DVD ISO's playable in my previous Oppo 981 HD.

 

Alex

Forrest:

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DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

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Eloise

There may be a demand for this kind of thing (illegal though) as the Usenet is awash with SACD-R ISOs that are playable in many players. There was even firmware available to make the burned to DVD ISO's playable in my previous Oppo 981 HD.

Alex

 

 

I strongly advise against any solutions that can be used to pirate physical SACD's !!!

 

I would probably pull my funding from such a project.

Promise Pegasus2 R6 12TB -> Thunderbolt2 ->
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Main: Genelec 5 x 8260A + 2 x 8250 + 2 x 8330 + 7271A sub
Boat: Genelec 8010 + 5040 sub

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Blog: “Confessions of a DigiPhile”

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I strongly advise against any solutions that can be used to pirate physical SACD's !!!

+1

 

I was trying to be more subtle in my writing but it appears the subtlety was missed.

 

This project is not about creating pirate physical SACDs which could be used in any SACD player. It is about allowing fair usage of the SACDs people own by creating files playable via their computer to one of the increasing number of DSD capable DACs.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I was trying to be more subtle in my writing but it appears the subtlety was missed.

 

 

Your carefully worded message was not missed, Eloise.

 

I decided the proper delivery was with a sledge hammer ;-)

Promise Pegasus2 R6 12TB -> Thunderbolt2 ->
MacBook Pro M1 Pro -> Motu 8D -> AES/EBU ->
Main: Genelec 5 x 8260A + 2 x 8250 + 2 x 8330 + 7271A sub
Boat: Genelec 8010 + 5040 sub

Hifiman Sundara, Sennheiser PXC 550 II
Blog: “Confessions of a DigiPhile”

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Anatolio ... one thing "we" have to be careful here is the reasoning behind wanting this ...

 

This is purely aimed at people wanting to extract the DSD music from a SACD following a "fair use" philosophy so they can play back on a DSD DAC via music files. There is no desire (as far as I can see) to create new SACDs for playback on disk players.

 

Eloise

 

Thanks Eloise. That's OK with me as I record music in DSD and want not only use my DACs and DSD disc players, but also a variety of SACD players.

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Your carefully worded message was not missed, Eloise.

 

I decided the proper delivery was with a sledge hammer ;-)

 

I'm certain the OP was already well aware of these considerations.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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So this most recent discussion raises a question that I had been thinking about, but am not clear on the details, so I guess I'll ask...

 

SACD was introduced in 1999 if I recall correctly. Patent law in the US and generally, World, provides 20 years of protection, and they clearly had to have the format developed and segments patented before the introduction of the format. So, aren't the legal restrictions that Sony established for the SACD format essentially moot upon that expiration date? At that point anyone can build an SACD reader that would send out a digital stream, and presumably also make a SACD compatible writer as well?

 

I believe that the fear of piracy was the reason the SACD arrangement was developed, but clearly the lid has been blown off that box by the development of computers, the internet, and digital audio formats that far exceed what was being envisioned when the SACD format was originally being developed in the mid-90's (in the world of the traditional consumer purchase model, with Redbook CDs on shelves of brick and mortar stores)? You can go to any number of places online now and download PCM files that will sonically match the SACD format, and also in some places, you can also download DSD files that either exactly match or exceed anything that SACD was able to deliver (depending on mastering, I suppose).

Server ---> Rpi ---> Audiophilleo2 ---> Metrum Octave ---> Audio Horizons Pre ---> Pass Labs XA30.5 ---> Sonus Faber Liuto Towers

Computer ---> Audio Hardware ---> Air ---> Ears ---> Brain

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So this most recent discussion raises a question that I had been thinking about, but am not clear on the details, so I guess I'll ask...

 

SACD was introduced in 1999 if I recall correctly. Patent law in the US and generally, World, provides 20 years of protection, and they clearly had to have the format developed and segments patented before the introduction of the format. So, aren't the legal restrictions that Sony established for the SACD format essentially moot upon that expiration date? At that point anyone can build an SACD reader that would send out a digital stream, and presumably also make a SACD compatible writer as well?

 

I believe that the fear of piracy was the reason the SACD arrangement was developed, but clearly the lid has been blown off that box by the development of computers, the internet, and digital audio formats that far exceed what was being envisioned when the SACD format was originally being developed in the mid-90's (in the world of the traditional consumer purchase model, with Redbook CDs on shelves of brick and mortar stores)? You can go to any number of places online now and download PCM files that will sonically match the SACD format, and also in some places, you can also download DSD files that either exactly match or exceed anything that SACD was able to deliver (depending on mastering, I suppose).

 

You're welcome to hire an intellectual property attorney to look into the subject. I haven't bothered, as from everything I've heard, Sony still has intellectual property protection for its SACDs.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I strongly advise against any solutions that can be used to pirate physical SACD's !!!

 

I would probably pull my funding from such a project.

 

I don't even like that banner ad for SACD ripping. IMO, it's not a good look for a well respected forum.

Although I did try firmware for my old Oppo 981, I actually only tried one SACD .ISO that a friend kept insisting that I try. I preferred the ripped RB CD of the same and took it no further.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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You're welcome to hire an intellectual property attorney to look into the subject. I haven't bothered, as from everything I've heard, Sony still has intellectual property protection for its SACDs.

 

So this most recent discussion raises a question that I had been thinking about, but am not clear on the details, so I guess I'll ask...

 

SACD was introduced in 1999 if I recall correctly. Patent law in the US and generally, World, provides 20 years of protection, and they clearly had to have the format developed and segments patented before the introduction of the format. So, aren't the legal restrictions that Sony established for the SACD format essentially moot upon that expiration date? At that point anyone can build an SACD reader that would send out a digital stream, and presumably also make a SACD compatible writer as well?

 

I believe that the fear of piracy was the reason the SACD arrangement was developed, but clearly the lid has been blown off that box by the development of computers, the internet, and digital audio formats that far exceed what was being envisioned when the SACD format was originally being developed in the mid-90's (in the world of the traditional consumer purchase model, with Redbook CDs on shelves of brick and mortar stores)? You can go to any number of places online now and download PCM files that will sonically match the SACD format, and also in some places, you can also download DSD files that either exactly match or exceed anything that SACD was able to deliver (depending on mastering, I suppose).

 

Patents protects methods of reading SACD. SONY has intellectual rights to patents.

 

Recording companies (if I don't mistaken) must get allowing for publishing records in SACD format. Allowing for using SACD/DSD terms to digital recordings and optical discs is property (registered trademark) of SONY.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
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Patents protects methods of reading SACD. SONY has intellectual rights to patents.

 

Recording companies (if I don't mistaken) must get allowing for publishing records in SACD format. Allowing for using SACD/DSD terms to digital recordings and optical discs is property (registered trademark) of SONY.

 

And Philips, the co-inventor of CD and SACD.

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Patents protects methods of reading SACD. SONY has intellectual rights to patents.

 

Recording companies (if I don't mistaken) must get permission for publishing records in SACD format. Allowing for using SACD/DSD terms to digital recordings and optical discs is property (registered trademark) of SONY.

 

I wasn't referring to mastering or authoring SACD with my question, so I am not really concerned about the issues regarding producing an SACD disc. That would likely have to go through the issues of trademark IP that as far as I know, does not expire ever, really.

 

I was talking about the technology to produce a hardware device that can read an SACD. Once the patents expire, I don't think that it is possible to restrict what a manufacturer could choose to do with the information that is pulled off the disc, because they cannot be sued for patent infringement on the technology, and the restrictions to the technology are associated with the SACD manufacturers licence agreement, not specific patents or other limitations.

 

That is what I was asking. Is this essentially correct?

Server ---> Rpi ---> Audiophilleo2 ---> Metrum Octave ---> Audio Horizons Pre ---> Pass Labs XA30.5 ---> Sonus Faber Liuto Towers

Computer ---> Audio Hardware ---> Air ---> Ears ---> Brain

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I'm in you can count on me I want one.

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My hand just went up ...

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And Philips, the co-inventor of CD and SACD.

 

Trademarks DSD and SACD is not properties of Philips now, only SONY. I don't found mentions of Philips (connected with SACD and DSD) in trademark offices when learn this issue.

 

Some patents Philips, possibly, own.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
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Trademarks DSD and SACD is not properties of Philips now, only SONY. I don't found mentions of Philips (connected with SACD and DSD) in trademark offices when learn this issue.

 

Some patents Philips, possibly, own.

 

Philips still licenses SACD as part of it's licensing program on behalf of Sony and Philips. Their info page says (in part):

 

The joint Super Audio CD Disc Patent License Agreement comprises the essential patents of Philips and Sony. A worldwide list of the essential patents, together with applicable expiry dates, is attached to the agreement. Under the terms of the standard license agreement we only will require payment of royalties of patents where any of these are actually used – in other words, either in the country of manufacture or in the country of sale.

 

Super Audio CD disc licensees have at all times the option to transfer to the latest version of the Super Audio CD Disc Patent License Agreement. In the event of such transfer, we do not require payment of the entrance fee under the new license agreement.

 

Reference copies of the current version of the Philips Super Audio CD Disc Patent License Agreement, together with the relevant annexes, including worldwide patent lists, can be found in the patents/agreements section and the annexes section.

 

As part of new licenses and as part of settlement of disputes, manufacturers are now required to sign a side-letter setting forth the mandatory LSCD requirement. Such side-letters are also available to existing manufacturers wishing to demonstrate to their customers that they will only ship products covered by a valid LSCD issued by Philips. Manufacturers with this requirement are listed on Philips Licensee database with an asterisk (*). For more information about LSCD’s please visit our Supplier/Buyer page.

 

Licensing Program - Philips IP&S

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and the restrictions to the technology are associated with the SACD manufacturers licence agreement, not specific patents or other limitations.

 

Liense agreement is result of patent rights.

I.e. you are patent owner. You conclude License agreement with hardware/software manufacturer for using the patent.

If patent already expiried, you lose right to it, you can't right conclude the agreement.

 

I don't say here about license agreement for musical content.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

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Philips still licenses SACD as part of it's licensing program on behalf of Sony and Philips. Their info page says (in part):

 

 

 

Licensing Program - Philips IP&S

 

bmoura,

thank you for link.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

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