Official Light Harmonic Geek Pulse and LPS prices (100% to 200% higher than MSRPs listed during campaigns)

[Superdad]

It is coming up on one year since I plunked down my $199 for a Geek Pulse via the Indiegogo campaign, so I go to looking around on the LH Labs web site this morning. Looks like those of us who backed the campaign will eventually be getting a bigger bargain than expected.

 

Here are the numbers from the official list price post made by Gavin Fish on September 5th.

(Topic: Pulse | OLED screen "assignment" (1/4) - Geek Temple - LH Labs)

 

Geek Pulse ($499) $1,199

Geek Pulse /i/f $1,499

Geek Pulse X ($699) $1,799

Geek Pulse X /i/f $2,199

Geek LPS ($499) $999

Geek LPS 4 $1,599

 

I included in parentheses the original MSRPs as listed on the Indiegogo campaign page (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-pulse-a-digital-audio-awesomifier-for-your-desktop#geekpulse-s). The /i and /f upgrades were only listed originally with campaign price upgrades, hence no original MSRP listed for them.

 

These are all some VERY big bumps. I am guessing that they both discovered that their build costs will be higher than originally estimated, and that they have decided to price the products with room for full dealer margins as opposed to just a direct model (Gavin said as much on the latter in his post).

For boutique stereo audio electronics, dealers typically get 40-50% off, and international distributors demand 55-60% off.

 

Also, at the beginning of the LHlabs.com GeekForce post I linked is a breakdown of the first production run by model/option. The just under 1800 is probably about the total of the pre-sold campaign units since those numbers are pretty specific and they seem to jibe somewhat with the number of backers.

 

Just FYI…

 

P.S. My daughter loves the Geek Out I gave her to take to college, and I am really looking to upgrading my workshop system with the Pulse. I wish the LH folks continued success, but I do worry about some of their big moves like this pricing one.

[jhwalker]

It is coming up on one year since I plunked down my $199 for a Geek Pulse via the Indiegogo campaign, so I go to looking around on the LH Labs web site this morning. Looks like those of us who backed the campaign will eventually be getting a bigger bargain than expected.

 

Here are the numbers from the official list price post made by Gavin Fish on September 5th.

(Topic: Pulse | OLED screen "assignment" (1/4) - Geek Temple - LH Labs)

 

Geek Pulse ($499) $1,199

Geek Pulse /i/f $1,499

Geek Pulse X ($699) $1,799

Geek Pulse X /i/f $2,199

Geek LPS ($499) $999

Geek LPS 4 $1,599

 

I included in parentheses the original MSRPs as listed on the Indiegogo campaign page (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-pulse-a-digital-audio-awesomifier-for-your-desktop#geekpulse-s). The /i and /f upgrades were only listed originally with campaign price upgrades, hence no original MSRP listed for them.

 

These are all some VERY big bumps. I am guessing that they both discovered that their build costs will be higher than originally estimated, and that they have decided to price the products with room for full dealer margins as opposed to just a direct model (Gavin said as much on the latter in his post).

For boutique stereo audio electronics, dealers typically get 40-50% off, and international distributors demand 55-60% off.

 

Also, at the beginning of the LHlabs.com GeekForce post I linked is a breakdown of the first production run by model/option. The just under 1800 is probably about the total of the pre-sold campaign units since those numbers are pretty specific and they seem to jibe somewhat with the number of backers.

 

Just FYI…

 

P.S. My daughter loves the Geek Out I gave her to take to college, and I am really looking to upgrading my workshop system with the Pulse. I wish the LH folks continued success, but I do worry about some of their big moves like this pricing one.

 

I've got a fully loaded Pulse X coming - I paid <25% of the suggested MSRP.

 

After yesterday's firmware upgrade of the Geek Out, I'm super-hyped to hear Pulse

[Superdad]

After yesterday's firmware upgrade of the Geek Out, I'm super-hyped to hear Pulse

 

John:

Did you install the new firmware? The change log said they had to drop the "3D Awesomifier" to make room for the new TCM and FRM modes. I think my daughter uses the Awesomifer mode with headphones, so I'm not sure about making the update. She would have to wait until she comes home from UCLA over Thanksgiving to do it anyway as LH is not currently offering a way for Mac users to load the new firmware. I can just boot one of my machines in Windows when she is here.

[jhwalker]

John:

Did you install the new firmware? The change log said they had to drop the "3D Awesomifier" to make room for the new TCM and FRM modes. I think my daughter uses the Awesomifer mode with headphones, so I'm not sure about making the update. She would have to wait until she comes home from UCLA over Thanksgiving to do it anyway as LH is not currently offering a way for Mac users to load the new firmware. I can just boot one of my machines in Windows when she is here.

 

Yes, I upgraded right away. I never had much interest in the "Awesomifier" - if I want crossfeed, I'll use any number of available plug-ins - but like the new custom minimum phase and linear filters. I've spent a good bit of time getting my filter settings "right"in Audirvana, but I think the new TCM (i.e., custom minimum phase) filter is as good as my best effort . . . and I can use it with any software, not just Audirvana.

 

I know, it's irritating there is not currently a Mac firmware upgrade program - luckily, I use a Windows laptop for work, so had one right here under my chair

 

Not able to compare back-to-back, of course, but I think the new firmware sounds a good bit more clear, balanced, and "punchy" than the original code, and it was already pretty dang good.

[Panelhead]

I've got a fully loaded Pulse X coming - I paid <25% of the suggested MSRP.

 

After yesterday's firmware upgrade of the Geek Out, I'm super-hyped to hear Pulse

 

I need to update the firmware on the rest of the families Geek Outs. They will not play with the filters, but may hear the change.

A loaded Pulse X is headed to our house. Hope it is as good as expected.

Everything with it except the LPS. I can build a power supply that is very low noise and wide bandwidth.

[labjr]

LH is dreaming. I can't imagine anyone paying MSRP for the product the way it currently looks even if it sounds like the cat's ass. Guitar Center has hundreds of DAC products for the recording amateur with multiple channels of DAC and ADC starting under $99. Every musician I know is broke.

 

Nordstrom? Which department? Lingerie? Makeup? Shoes?

 

 

I think they've lost interest in their crowd funding base of customers because they smell money in the retail sector the same way they lost interest in the high end dealers and DaVinci DAC. They seem to be meandering all over the place.

 

What's next?

[Stereolab42]

$3500 for the Geek Pulse Xfi now:

 

LH Labs Geek Pulse | AudioStream

 

If you extrapolate from the older prices above, that means the base Geek Pulse will probably be closer to $2k. Did they really think they were 10x better than the engineers at competing DAC manufacturers that they could achieve the same functionality and quality at 1/10th the price? Given the legal requirement to honor the original prices for the legions of original Indiegogo backers, that might represent a big monetary loss. That is, if they aren't simply planning to jack up MSRP by so much because they think they can get away with it, as opposed to it bearing any relationship to the cost of the underlying parts.

 

The number of people willing to be $2k+ for a DAC is simply not that large. They appear to have failed miserably in their goal of bringing audiophile-quality desktop DACs to the masses. What a shame.

[jhwalker]

$3500 for the Geek Pulse Xfi now:

 

LH Labs Geek Pulse | AudioStream

 

If you extrapolate from the older prices above, that means the base Geek Pulse will probably be closer to $2k. Did they really think they were 10x better than the engineers at competing DAC manufacturers that they could achieve the same functionality and quality at 1/10th the price? Given the legal requirement to honor the original prices for the legions of original Indiegogo backers, that might represent a big monetary loss. That is, if they aren't simply planning to jack up MSRP by so much because they think they can get away with it, as opposed to it bearing any relationship to the cost of the underlying parts.

 

The number of people willing to be $2k+ for a DAC is simply not that large. They appear to have failed miserably in their goal of bringing audiophile-quality desktop DACs to the masses. What a shame.

 

What's wrong with pricing for what the market will bear? The Pulse line will compete with other DAC / headphone amps with the same features at approximately the same price.

 

That said, I got mine at a great bargain, and I'm sure it will sound fantastic

[Stereolab42]

What's wrong with pricing for what the market will bear? The Pulse line will compete with other DAC / headphone amps with the same features at approximately the same price.

 

That said, I got mine at a great bargain, and I'm sure it will sound fantastic

 

Their original stated goal was "Your support will not only provide you with an audiophile quality DAC at an affordable price, but will help us to use the best materials and high end technology that makes our audio components stand out above the rest." I bet the reason a lot of people contributed was not just so they could get a unit, but to support this overall goal.

 

And as should be clear to anyone, $2k+ DACs don't sell in volume, no matter how good they are, so I'm mystified at their business acumen here. It seems like they wanted this to be a high-volume, quality product that would help drive the engine of future growth. That's not gonna happen at this price point, just the same way it didn't happen with their $20k DACs, as wonderful-sounding as I imagine they are.

 

It seems they've completely lost their way.

[labjr]

I agree. There's already a glut of high end companies which put a handful of parts in a box and slap a price tag on it which is disproportionate to the BOM. I wanted to see them continue what they did with Geek Out. But they seem to change directions like a weather vane. Good luck with that. They'll probably find out the hard way that customers are loyal when something is a good value.

[labjr]

What's wrong with pricing for what the market will bear? The Pulse line will compete with other DAC / headphone amps with the same features at approximately the same price.

 

That said, I got mine at a great bargain, and I'm sure it will sound fantastic

 

 

Someone buying a $3,500+ DAC probably wants to buy from a company that appears to be stable Like Ayre or Auralic. So they can get service and upgrades in the future. Not one that appears to be doing anything to raise money, then does a 180 with their business strategy every few months.

[Superdad]

Most of the retail price increases are due to the fact that they are switching over to a traditional, multi-tier, distributor>dealer sales model so they can get into those channels. Overseas importers demand at least 60% off MSRP. The dealers those foreign agents serve--and the USA dealers Light Harmonic will presumably handle directly--won't touch a line for less than 40% off. (Not sure just why they are switching over to a distribution model at this stage, but that's their business.)

 

Combine the above with the realities they are probably facing with regards to chassis machining/finishing, etc.--plus the pressure they got from retailers for something that looks better for the price--and it appears they are now in a world of hurt and confusion. At least that's how it looks from reading the posts of Gavin and LH's most ardent fans at the LH Geekforce forum.

 

The latest $3500 price (which probably should not even have been announced since they don't know their own final costs yet) is for ANOTHER new model, actually two new models: all-in-one versions in standard rack width size (with PS built in), with either a tube or solid state stage. Here is the post where Gavin announces that along with a future upgrade offer for those who (eventually) receive their Indiegogo-backed bargain versions (which I think will still look like the pictures seen so far):

http://www.lhlabs.com/force/welcome/2134-all-things-rmaf-rmaf-pictures?start=225#35475

 

I wish them success, but boy oh boy is this whole thing a huge object lesson in the perils of combining crowd-funding with crowd-designing on too large a scale with the sales/marketing department running too far ahead of the engineering/financial planning.

 

I have been reading Jason Stoddard's humorous, frank, and insightful weekly blog on the history, business model/philosophy, etc. of Schiit Audio (over at Head-Fi Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up). Talk about polar opposite to Light Harmonic. Schiit operates with just 6 people, and does almost zero marketing, but the contrasts go way beyond just that.

 

Anyway, I should shut up now. I am looking forward to receiving the Geek Pulse I paid for almost exactly one year ago.

I wish success to all small-to-medium size high-end audio firms--especially those who are responsive to their customers and try to offer good value/high performance. There are many paths in business--and they don't all lead in the same direction.

[labjr]

Chapter 29:

 

Worst. Customer. Ever.

 

That chapter is hilarious!

[labjr]

I thought the $3,500 price was for the Pulse they showed at RMAF. At least Audiostream and Darko's' web sites stated this. The power supply is another $900. Are they gonna stuff all that in one box and price it at $4,400? Who knows. But very confusing signals coming from LH.

 

Gavin recently stated that they lost $40K on the Geek Out campaign. No wonder they started the Geek Pulse campaign shortly after that. But then hired like 20 more people. Their payroll combined with production costs must burn through cash reserves rather quickly.

[Superdad]

I thought the $3,500 price was for the Pulse they showed at RMAF. At least Audiostream and Darko's' web sites stated this. The power supply is another $900. Are they gonna stuff all that in one box and price it at $4,400? Who knows. But very confusing signals coming from LH.

 

Gavin recently stated that they lost $40K on the Geek Out campaign. No wonder they started the Geek Pulse campaign shortly after that. But then hired like 20 more people. Their payroll combined with production costs must burn through cash reserves rather quickly.

 

Indeed.

I think the whole new all-in-one-box/new design with industrial designers plan was hatched AFTER RMAF (which of course does not help since there is now even more incorrect information/pricing floating around the audio web sites).

 

My guess is that they now have bought most all the metal work for the hum-drum looking units as pictured (the ones which everyone says can not stand up to the new pricing as announced at the end of September), probably enough to fill all the campaign-backed orders and then some. I predict once all those are gone--some likely at sub-$1000 and certainly sub-$2000 prices, that will be the end of that design and its whole multi-model X/i/f, outboard PS scheme. Gavin said as much when he wrote in that post (the one I just linked tonight):

 

"I know that MSRP of the final units has some of you rightfully concerned, so we’ll be heavily discounting the new units prior to launching them into the market. By offering a generous discount and trade-in value, you’ll still be at or below cost for the new unit(s)."

 

Judging by the reaction, I think that statement was clear as mud to the people in the thread since it was not clear which "new units" would be discounted. And if he means the new all-in-one models, then he should be taken out to the sales and marketing 101 woodshed and beaten senseless for saying of the new product (the one they hope to put into distribution and have as an ongoing model):

"...we’ll be heavily discounting the new units prior to launching them into the market."

 

I am worried that 2015 may not be a pretty year for LH.

[Superdad]

Here are the numbers from the official list price post made by Gavin Fish on September 5th.

(Topic: Pulse | OLED screen "assignment" (1/4) - Geek Temple - LH Labs)

 

Geek Pulse ($499) $1,199

Geek Pulse /i/f $1,499

Geek Pulse X ($699) $1,799

Geek Pulse X /i/f $2,199

Geek LPS ($499) $999

Geek LPS 4 $1,599

 

I included in parentheses the original MSRPs as listed on the Indiegogo campaign page (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-pulse-a-digital-audio-awesomifier-for-your-desktop#geekpulse-s). The /i and /f upgrades were only listed originally with campaign price upgrades, hence no original MSRP listed for them.

 

Light Harmonic just launched another campaign for the Geek Pulse, this time as part of Indiegogo's "Forever Campaign" pilot program. You can find it here: Geek Pulse: A Digital Audio Awesomifier for Your Desktop | Indiegogo

 

Since they are now beginning to ship the first Geek Pulses, and since they have sorted out where they are going (with the all-in-one "Soul" DAC/HA, proto-design which is also shown on the new campaign page), it would seem that the MSRPs listed on the new page will be the official ones. They differ from Gavin Fish's September 5th posting in the following ways:

 

The base Geek Pulse will retail for $999 not $1,199 (Geek Pulse i/f is not listed, so we don't know if its price has changed or if it will be available; it is not even on the big matrix at the bottom of the new campaign page);

 

The fully decked out Geek Pulse X/i/f will retail for $3,199, up from $2,199 (wow, that's a big jump);

 

The Geek LPS will be $899 instead of $999 (still a lot of money for a 1.2A PS).

 

All other retail prices remain as previously reported.

 

-------

 

CORRECTION: It appears that the units LH are beginning to ship are the LPS power supplies, not the Geek Pulse. See photos here:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-pulse-high-res-audio-for-your-desktop#activity

[pawel8]

I have received 40+ emails from LH

Geek Temple whatever this means.

I started to worry about Light Harmonics legitimacy!

I agree that we should consider Ayre or Auralic and possibly Mytek in choosing DAC at 3000$ price range.

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

There was a problem on some threads members we're automatically subscribed. Its now fixed and if there is still are just remnants of previous posts.

[Stereolab42]

The base Geek Pulse will retail for $999 not $1,199 (Geek Pulse i/f is not listed, so we don't know if its price has changed or if it will be available; it is not even on the big matrix at the bottom of the new campaign page);

 

The fully decked out Geek Pulse X/i/f will retail for $3,199, up from $2,199 (wow, that's a big jump);

 

The Geek LPS will be $899 instead of $999 (still a lot of money for a 1.2A PS).

 

All other retail prices remain as previously reported.

 

A Teddy Pardo is $400, why do they think they can get away with $899?

 

But at least they retreated to $999 for the base Pulse. They say it's only going to support DoP, though, which is a big disappointment -- and that includes the xFi, only the Soul will support native. And DSD256 support is still in the air, I guess? I am not seeing the value proposition.

[rdsu]

Geek Pulse will also have support for Native DSD.

[Stereolab42]

Geek Pulse will also have support for Native DSD.

 

Not according to their own specs:

 

 

• Native DSD support: Most DSD capable DAC's on the market, Geek Pulse included, utilize DoP (DSD over PCM) to deliver your DSD music to your stereo. With this upgrade, we install supporting passive components into Geek Soul that improve the DAC circuit's conversion efficiency. With the improved efficiency, we can offer both DoP support and native DSD bitstreaming support.
  

[labjr]

I thought Larry Ho said the Pulse would not ship with bitstreaming but would offer an upgrade later?

[rdsu]

Not according to their own specs:

 

 

• Native DSD support: Most DSD capable DAC's on the market, Geek Pulse included, utilize DoP (DSD over PCM) to deliver your DSD music to your stereo. With this upgrade, we install supporting passive components into Geek Soul that improve the DAC circuit's conversion efficiency. With the improved efficiency, we can offer both DoP support and native DSD bitstreaming support.
  

 

Larry Ho already confirmed that Native DSD will be avaible trought a firmware update later...

[Savage]

It looks like the GeekOut will have to take up duties for cheap hi-fi for the masses. I know at one point they were talking about a stripped down Pulse, 0 bells and 0 whistles but from $299 they could only shave another few dollars off the original and scrapped that idea. It wouldn't be out of the question to see it make a come back with the new retail prices though.

 

I am excited to hear Pulse, especially after a year wait and much thread following. Did anyone get a first hand listen at RMAF?

[Stereolab42]

Larry Ho already confirmed that Native DSD will be avaible trought a firmware update later...

 

OK, but that directly contradicts what I quoted from the just-updated GoGo page... that bitstreaming is a feature confined to the Soul, and mentioned explicitly as a point of upsale. And furthermore, confined to the Soul because "passive components" need to be installed to "improve the DAC circuit's conversion efficiency". How can a mere firmware upgrade possibly remedy that? Once again LH needs to get its story straight.