bikalot Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I have a VERY odd problem that just got onto my radar screen in a random way. First, here's my equipment: Coda CSib integrated amp Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC Auraliti PK-90 USB server Buffalo USB 3 external hard drive Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers Audience Au-24 SE speaker cables Cardas Clear XLR interconnects Cardas Clear & Grover Huffman power cords Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Apple Airport Express Radio Shack stereo mini to RCA cable (for Airport) The issue: Due to a random happening, I ended up listening to music streaming from my office computer (2009 iMac) onto the system above. The music on my iMac is either encoded AIFF or ALAC directly ripped from CDs. The way my system is set up, I can switch from playing streaming music from my iMac to the system above with the push of a button on a remote. Out of curiosity (mostly to see how bad the streaming version was compared to the DAC), I listened to several of the same songs in 44.1 via both options. I was STUNNED to hear that depending on the song, there was either a negligible difference between the two methods, OR, the streaming version was better in almost every way: bigger (deeper) soundstage, deeper bass, same or better level of realism, etc. I ended up installing Audirvana on my iMac and listened again....this made the differences between streaming and direct DAC even bigger. Thinking something was wrong, I plugged my Ayre DAC into my (old - 2007) Macbook laptop via USB in order to bypass the Auraliti server, which I thought might be the weak link in the system. Comparing the iMac streaming vs the Macbook>Ayre DAC the differences were smaller, with an incredibly slight edge going to the streaming version. I even installed Audirvana on my Macbook, and I would say that while there are very subtle differences between the two methods, in terms of quality, the differences are negligible. I have now tried many different file types, and the only way that the Macbook>DAC beats the iMac streaming is if I compare an HD file (e.g. 96) on my Macbook with the 44.1 encoded version streaming via my iMac. I have had several audiophile friends over here that have loved the sound of my system, and know that Airport can only stream ALAC 44.1 versions of music. So, finally, to my question: what is going on here? Why am I getting this result? What am I missing? Thanks in advance for reading....and pondering. Matt Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'm not totally clear what your comparison is here. Is it 1. Aurality (or MacBook) --USB--> Ayre QB-9 DSD --Analogue--> Coda CSib vs 2. iMac --Network--> Airport Express --Analogue--> Coda CSib Thank you for clarifying... Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
boatheelmusic Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Right, is your AE plugged into your dac or not? Link to comment
bikalot Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 OK, fair question. I am comparing the AE plugged directly into my Coda integrated with streaming files (wirelessly) from my iMac versus 2 separate signal paths: 1) HD>Auraliti>Ayre>Coda 2) Macbook>Ayre>Coda The streaming from my iMac sounds better than either of the two signal paths (1 or 2) listed directly above. Link to comment
realhifi Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I would personally junk the extra components (I'll send you my shipping address, I'll pick up shipping) and stick with the AirPort Express. David Link to comment
bikalot Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 Great offer Dave, thanks :-) I know it sounds like I'm an idiot, but I actually have a good ear, and classical training in piano. I am completely surprised by what I'm hearing - I did NOT expect or want this to happen - and am looking for some explanation(s). Link to comment
Isaacc7 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Great offer Dave, thanks :-) I know it sounds like I'm an idiot, but I actually have a good ear, and classical training in piano. I am completely surprised by what I'm hearing - I did NOT expect or want this to happen - and am looking for some explanation(s). Well... The obvious answer is that the DAC in the airport express is outperforming your other gear. That's the simplest idea. You can try streaming to the airport express from the MacBook and see if the quality goes down. If it does, then there's bound to be a setting or something awry there. If not... I will say that the airport express is pretty good, especially for the price. I found plugging in analog connections directly to my powered speakers from the airport express resulted in really enjoyable sound. I only replaced it because I wanted something more flexible. If it turns out that the airport express is the best sounding thing I'd just go with it and sell the other stuff:) Link to comment
tranz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hi bikalot, One thing I can think of is that the USB connection is at fault. I am not a big fan of USB for audio because it is a perfect path for noise from your computer ( especially one that is not tweaked to lower electrical noise) to go downstream. There are many other threads regarding cleaning up the noisy USB connection using e.g. SoTM/PPA/JCAT cards, IFI USB, USB-SPDIF converters. I have put a scope on USB before and after cleaning up the 5V and it is not pretty. By using a wireless connection you are cutting the ground noise and the Ethernet transformers help reduce noise. This is also why many folks see improvements with dedicated audio streamers. Food for thought... Cheers Link to comment
realhifi Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Great offer Dave, thanks :-) I know it sounds like I'm an idiot, but I actually have a good ear, and classical training in piano. I am completely surprised by what I'm hearing - I did NOT expect or want this to happen - and am looking for some explanation(s). There's an really good old saying that goes like this, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth". Hard as it is, folks just can't help themselves. David Link to comment
bikalot Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Very interesting Tranz....this fits into some feedback I got today at the California Audio Show. The two leading contenders to explain the situation were: USB at fault (similar to what you stated above), the Ayre DAC doesn't live up to it's reputation. A local audiophile kindly agreed to loan me another DAC next week, so I'll start there and see what happens. Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment
Audio Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I always get better sounds from ethernet streaming (DOPe) than USB (DOP). This is very consistent with my Lumin (only ethernet) and PS-Audio Directstream DAC with the Network Bridge card. (USB + Ethernet). (Audio) Link to comment
Rexp Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Very interesting Tranz....this fits into some feedback I got today at the California Audio Show. The two leading contenders to explain the situation were: USB at fault (similar to what you stated above), the Ayre DAC doesn't live up to it's reputation. A local audiophile kindly agreed to loan me another DAC next week, so I'll start there and see what happens. Thanks for the feedback. I too am getting the best digital I've heard from using a wireless connection:Airplay or Airparrot. Would be interested how the Ayre sounds connected to the digital out of AirportExpress and then to the amp? Link to comment
unsleepable Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I have an Airport Express connected with an optical cable to an irDac, and this is also connected to the computer with USB. I've compared both and to me they sound exactly the same. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
bixby Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I think the real answer to why it is not sounding as good is fairly complex, but USB is probably at the heart of it. First different Mac OS sound different, second the Macbook is a fairly weak source (I know I heard a big increase in fidelity when I went to a Mini), and third using a USB drive and a USB dac on a Mac is a no no for best fidelity. Add to that the above made comments about USB noise and it is not inconceivable that the streamed source may sound better. First low cost thing I might do is run the drive off an Airport extreme and ether to the imac and get a powerless usb cable for the QB(. That should up the SQ significantly. Alternatively you could get a firewire case for the drive and run that direct to the imac and use a powerless usb cable for the QB9. Both should outperform your current wired topology. YMMV. Good luck tweaking. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 You should reduce your variables. First mount your music drive over the network (macbook is client) then A/B Macbook->DAC using both USB and SPDIF. Also copy the music file to the Macbook hard drive (not external USB) and retest. I've certainly used a Macbook -> USB -> Ayre with great results so you have a problem in your system somewhere. Its very possible that the external USB drive (I'm not a fan of external USB drives) is thrashing your USB connection. The other likely problem is your fancy USB cable ... try monoprice! Put magic ferrite cores on it:-) Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 How does the irdac compare to the analog out of the airport express? I have an Airport Express connected with an optical cable to an irDac, and this is also connected to the computer with USB. I've compared both and to me they sound exactly the same. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
rhmmmm Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 OP, have you checked the "Sound Enhancer" settings in iTunes on your streaming setup (iTunes menu->Preferences->Playback tab)? I know that years ago, I was confused by how well the stock analog output of the AE sounded in comparison with my higher-end setup and figured out that Sound Enhancer was turned on, which, while adding extra artificial effects and processing, did result in a more enjoyable experience. Turning it off lowered the playback quality back to what I would have expected from the AE and made me feel a lot better about all the money I spent on my good gear :-) Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Sounds like you are experiencing what I learned a year ago. Streaming protocols bypass more PC jitter when the data is read off the drive for transmission and sent to a renderer for clocking. My JKMKIII asynch USB converter has been gathering dust ever since I tried UPNP streaming. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
tranz Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Sounds like you are experiencing what I learned a year ago. Streaming protocols bypass more PC jitter when the data is read off the drive for transmission and sent to a renderer for clocking. My JKMKIII asynch USB converter has been gathering dust ever since I tried UPNP streaming. Hi Davide, Thanks for sharing. Did you ever try a NAS like a Synology instead of the WS2012 box? Or a wireless bridge to your Oppo instead of the direct CAT6e connection? Cheers Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I purchased a Synology DS214play about 10 days ago, am using it now instead of PC as NAS. Its the equal or better of the tweaked PC solution I was using as NAS for audio performance. I did find that with the WD red drives there was a sense of harshness but swapping them to SSD eliminated that. And I've abandoned connecting devices off the switch also as that seems to cause connectivity peculiarities, have them direct connected to router with GigE ports. Connecting via wireless with Oppo was always inferior to wired connection, suspect that's part of why folks are excited about the Auralic Aries capabilities. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Geardaddy Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I have a VERY odd problem that just got onto my radar screen in a random way. First, here's my equipment: Coda CSib integrated amp Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC Auraliti PK-90 USB server Buffalo USB 3 external hard drive Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers Audience Au-24 SE speaker cables Cardas Clear XLR interconnects Cardas Clear & Grover Huffman power cords Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Apple Airport Express Radio Shack stereo mini to RCA cable (for Airport) The issue: Due to a random happening, I ended up listening to music streaming from my office computer (2009 iMac) onto the system above. The music on my iMac is either encoded AIFF or ALAC directly ripped from CDs. The way my system is set up, I can switch from playing streaming music from my iMac to the system above with the push of a button on a remote. Out of curiosity (mostly to see how bad the streaming version was compared to the DAC), I listened to several of the same songs in 44.1 via both options. I was STUNNED to hear that depending on the song, there was either a negligible difference between the two methods, OR, the streaming version was better in almost every way: bigger (deeper) soundstage, deeper bass, same or better level of realism, etc. I ended up installing Audirvana on my iMac and listened again....this made the differences between streaming and direct DAC even bigger. Thinking something was wrong, I plugged my Ayre DAC into my (old - 2007) Macbook laptop via USB in order to bypass the Auraliti server, which I thought might be the weak link in the system. Comparing the iMac streaming vs the Macbook>Ayre DAC the differences were smaller, with an incredibly slight edge going to the streaming version. I even installed Audirvana on my Macbook, and I would say that while there are very subtle differences between the two methods, in terms of quality, the differences are negligible. I have now tried many different file types, and the only way that the Macbook>DAC beats the iMac streaming is if I compare an HD file (e.g. 96) on my Macbook with the 44.1 encoded version streaming via my iMac. I have had several audiophile friends over here that have loved the sound of my system, and know that Airport can only stream ALAC 44.1 versions of music. So, finally, to my question: what is going on here? Why am I getting this result? What am I missing? Thanks in advance for reading....and pondering. Matt Talk about a serendipitous discovery. I think a lot of it has to do with the digital input/cable interface and jitter production. I used a highly modded AE (Zardoz by dBSystems out of France) as a source since 07 and people used to mock me on Audiogon for doing so. There is a lot of merit to that approach. I am now using an Auralic Aries to stream music via a computer-centric NAS (Minimserver) and it sounds great Link to comment
Geardaddy Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I purchased a Synology DS214play about 10 days ago, am using it now instead of PC as NAS. Its the equal or better of the tweaked PC solution I was using as NAS for audio performance. I did find that with the WD red drives there was a sense of harshness but swapping them to SSD eliminated that. And I've abandoned connecting devices off the switch also as that seems to cause connectivity peculiarities, have them direct connected to router with GigE ports. Connecting via wireless with Oppo was always inferior to wired connection, suspect that's part of why folks are excited about the Auralic Aries capabilities. When you say you were using your computer as a NAS does that mean via something like Minimserver. The wired versus wireless SQ has always been interesting to me. There is no difference to my ears with the Aries and thus wireless is my choice. Link to comment
tranz Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 When you say you were using your computer as a NAS does that mean via something like Minimserver. The wired versus wireless SQ has always been interesting to me. There is no difference to my ears with the Aries and thus wireless is my choice. Thanks Davide. Hi Geardaddy, My guess is it is all in the implementation. If using inferior LAN cables issues occur. If using low quality, high noise, high ripple switching power it will impact results. If your wiring management is lacking, e.g. too close to power lines, other EMI fields, it will have an impact. If your wireless router is not stable enough, or bandwidth is not high enough, or shared, or there is other signal interference, quality might get impacted. Are LAN isolators used? As good as the weakest link applies here too I think. So it is not as simple as wired vs. wireless. Link to comment
Geardaddy Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Thanks Davide. Hi Geardaddy, My guess is it is all in the implementation. If using inferior LAN cables issues occur. If using low quality, high noise, high ripple switching power it will impact results. If your wiring management is lacking, e.g. too close to power lines, other EMI fields, it will have an impact. If your wireless router is not stable enough, or bandwidth is not high enough, or shared, or there is other signal interference, quality might get impacted. Are LAN isolators used? As good as the weakest link applies here too I think. So it is not as simple as wired vs. wireless. Agreed and good points. I think there is some looming consensus that Ethernet is a superior digital interface versus USB at the ground level. I would love to see measurements of this stuff. Since you seem to be something of a techie, are there theoretical advantages to a pure NAS setup versus using a computer + software like Minimserver to create a faux NAS??? Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Don't have an Aries, believe part of the excitement over it is that it has enhanced logic to deal with the variability of wireless transmission media vs wired and supports the fastest wifi standard (ac). Main issue with a PC is that it was designed to be a jack of all trades... trying make it a server your main optimization task is turning off all those unneeded services constantly stealing CPU cycles without turning off so much it stops working. A built to purpose NAS starts from least services needed state. Minim server is just an alternative to whatever media server app comes with your NAS. I didn't like it as a PC server app but as a Synology app its sound is just fine. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
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