A thought !

[antonisgr]

Ok firewire is an interface with two way communication

In my MACBOOK I have 1 firewire which I use to connect the WEISS MINERVA

The minerva now has two firewires

If I connect one external firewire hard disk to the Minerva will I be able to control it through macbook?

And if so would it be better if the hard disk will communicate directly with the dac and not through the macbook?

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Yes ... You can add a second device the the second FireWire connector on your Weiss DAC. However it's not a good idea. Audio works best when the bus (FireWire or USB) is not shared with other devices - better when using a FireWire DAC to use USB or Network drive (unless you have two independent FireWire buses (on a MacPro for example))

 

The drive will not talk direct to the DAC - the data path will be HDD --FireWire--> Mac --FireWire--> DAC

 

eloise

 

[PeterSt]

Small addition / correction :

 

As far as I can tell audio does not suffer from additional data on the Firewire network (which it just is like ethernet), while it sure does matter for normal USB useage (simply said : where the way audio is transported has the least priority and besides USB is not a "network").

 

So, it would be perfectly allright to use e.g. Firewire connected disks for the audio data, while it would be explicitly wrong to do the same with USB disks. Keep in mind, for normal USB useage that is, and which counts out the asynchronous connections.

 

Nitpicking in this context of course, but generally verry important, because you really wouldn't be the first to have hiccups, not knowing where they come from.

 

Peter

 

[Audio_ELF]

Yes it's true a disc and DAC should work together on same FireWire bus, However I would still advise then kept separate if at all possible as it will remove a potential for problems... But it will work.

 

[markr]

...but not necessarily noiselessly. I use a MacBook Pro - late 2007 model. My adac is FW400 and I also was using a FW400 external HDD (Glyph 050) for the music library - I was also using that same drive for audio recording. Probably 80% of the time there was no issue at all. The other 20% of the time, there would be a sort of low-level crackling sound that would periodically impose itself on the audio. This would happen even if there was no music playing, but all devices were connected and turned on. I decided to try a FW800 HDD (Glyph 051) and the problem is now non-existent - all is quiet. AFAIK, the same controller chip is involved with controlling both FW400 and FW800 functions, but changing to the FW800 HDD while the adac is FW400 fixed the issue. I should also add that the first configuration would interfere with audio recording by injecting this crackling sound during the recording process.

 

markr

 

[PeterSt]

If this is so (markr), then I said nothing.

 

Keep in mind though, that random issues with Firewire can be Firewire interface related. I have experienced a couple of times by now that a Firewire card even can deteriorate. Like it can't provide enough current anymore to do the job well. This varies from worstening sound to the soundcard not wanting to connect to it half of the time.

 

So I guess Firewire, generally, just has its issues (and the kind of I never saw with USB ...).

 

Peter

 

[cfmsp]

"But it will work."

 

yes, it will work, and it should work fine, the reason is:

 

Native Firewire (i.e., using built=in Firewire capabilities, as opposed to the Asynchronous mode for which audio-based applications require specific drivers) uses something called Isochronous mode. This provides for "guaranteed bandwidth". Firewire's peer-to-peer capability also is MUCH less taxing on the CPU. as it requires little to no CPU support. Firewire was also designed for video and multiple channels of audio, and so only needs a fraction of the 'guaranteed' bandwidth to pass two channels of audio reliably. Firewire can theoretically support 63 devices on the 'daisy chain'.

 

Another reason it should be no problem is your using a Mac, which is less susceptible to background task interference than on a PC. There are stories (perhaps apocryphal) of systems crashing (or locking up) with the only thing still functioning being the audio playback. Presumably this was long enough ago that it's no longer a relevant anecdote.

 

So, I'd say, try it out, you'll know right away if it doesn't work, you'll get dropouts.

 

Maybe someone who knows more about this than I can elaborate, as I dont have time to research now, I guess it is theoretically possible that simultaneous use of Iso and Async Firewire could cause an issue, IF the guaranteed bandwidth consumed by Iso somehow limited Async, but I just dont see that happening with the rather small data requirements (relatively speaking) of two channel audio.

 

clay

 

 

[markr]

There are no issues whatsoever anymore - for more than 6 months now. This is with the same onboard controller (MBP) and computer. All I did was switch the HDD to FW800 and voila! No more issue. There never was any sort of system problem like locking or crashing before, BTW. Just the random noise.

 

markr

 

[souptin]

The Weiss manual for the Minerva is quite an interesting read, even if you don't have the unit itself - some fairly down to earth discussions about the differences between firewire and usb, for example. It does actually mention that a firewire audio device can potentially save data direct to a firewire disk, so I can see the logic in the op question about reversing that process. It would certainly be an interesting experiment to see if taking the computer out of the loop changed audio quality. Clearly there would need to be some kind of interface to allow for track selection, play, pause etc, even if it's not a full computer. Effectively making your Minerva a stand alone hard disk player.

 

The second fw is for daisy chaining other fw devices. There's no mention of possible sound degradation resulting from this. I admit the 'everything matters' voice in my head is saying don't share the bus, but the bits-is-bits voice says there's plenty of bandwidth. Also keep in mind that unless you're building a custom computer you may have limited options - perhaps disk and dac on super efficient firewire bus is better than disk on usb competing with keyboard, mouse and all your other peripherals. I've used this setup, with hard disk on fw800 daisy chained to dac on the disk's fw400 connection, no problems and no degradation of sound that I was aware of. It's not my permanent setup, so in fairness I haven't done extended listening.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Have you tried asking Weiss what they recommend. I know RME, etc. talk about stacks for FireFace devices, etc. but can't remember if any manufacturer comments on devices with hard drives daisy chained.

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"And if so would it be better if the hard disk will communicate directly with the dac and not through the macbook?"

 

WHile this is theoretically possible, I think you would need a special audio player software purpose built with this goal in mind, which might not seem necessary given that most developers are from the 'bits is bits' school of thought, and would probably point to the unlikelihood of there being a need for such software.

 

 

clay

 

 

[PeterSt]

:-)

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

Peter,

I assume you liked my comment.

 

clay

 

 

[PeterSt]

But I couldn't be sure you had me in mind as the complement of those most.

 

What you don't know (nobody actually) is that XXHighEnd sprung from just this reason. That is, after I started it I was asked by some engineer to work it out just for such a purpose, which I did. However, XX itself became competition for that particular DAC, and things didn't work out with that engineer. I, however, just kept on going with this, and if you carefully analyse how XX works, you can see through the whys.

 

But just wait, because it won't take long or it will show up, because my current engineer (the one doing the actual work on the DAC) came up with the same idea, and he is already working on it on his part ...

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"But I couldn't be sure you had me in mind as the complement of those most."

 

Yes, Of course.

 

You could be one in a million, along with cics, and a few others.

 

You're the only developer I know who has reported that a simple interaction with the user interface had downstream impacts at the DAC. I only wish that I spoke your native tongue - is it Dutch?

 

 

Met vriendelijke groeten,

clay

 

 

[PeterSt]

Unfortunately that wouldn't help much. I am commonly known here to write (dutch) in a fashion only a few will understand without problems. Doing it in english doesn't help I guess. :-)

 

Thank you Clay,

Peter