DAC recommendations

[Colin Dunn]

Well, after years of denial, I've gotten to a point where I just think that my home theater-oriented setup just isn't quite musically satisfying enough. So begins the quest to put together an alternate stereo front-end for my existing setup, or build up a second system for high-end stereo listening.

 

My current setup:

 

Sources: Oppo BDP-103 and HTPC, both connected via HDMI

Pre/pro: Integra DTC-9.8

Power amp: Sunfire Stereo II (Cinema Grand for center and surrounds)

Speakers: Magnepan MG-3.3R (front), MGCC3 (center), MG1.6 (side surround), MMG (rear surround)

 

What's wrong with this setup? It's too thin and bright sounding, especially for 44.1/16 CD. I'm happier with SACD and DVD-A performance. Those Maggies want a warm, high-quality source and amps; what I have today doesn't do CD audio justice. I will want lush, warm, almost tube-like sound, but would prefer solid state to avoid the headaches of tubes.

 

So I need a high-end DAC and stereo preamp at the very least. So starting with a budget of ~$1,000 US (new or used), what DACs should I consider? I'd like to be future-proof and have both DSD and PCM capability. Source may be computer (Toslink / USB) or CD. My best digital files are 96/24 PCM, but I may wade into computer DSD someday.

[Paul R]

I am almost beginning to sound lie a shill here, but try feeding those 44.16/16 CDs through software that can transcode to DSD, and into a DSD capable DAC. (Not sure if the Integra can take DSD from USB or not...)

 

I recommend trying an iFi iDSD Nano and JRMC.

 

-Paul

 

Well, after years of denial, I've gotten to a point where I just think that my home theater-oriented setup just isn't quite musically satisfying enough. So begins the quest to put together an alternate stereo front-end for my existing setup, or build up a second system for high-end stereo listening.

 

My current setup:

 

Sources: Oppo BDP-103 and HTPC, both connected via HDMI

Pre/pro: Integra DTC-9.8

Power amp: Sunfire Stereo II (Cinema Grand for center and surrounds)

Speakers: Magnepan MG-3.3R (front), MGCC3 (center), MG1.6 (side surround), MMG (rear surround)

 

What's wrong with this setup? It's too thin and bright sounding, especially for 44.1/16 CD. I'm happier with SACD and DVD-A performance. Those Maggies want a warm, high-quality source and amps; what I have today doesn't do CD audio justice. I will want lush, warm, almost tube-like sound, but would prefer solid state to avoid the headaches of tubes.

 

So I need a high-end DAC and stereo preamp at the very least. So starting with a budget of ~$1,000 US (new or used), what DACs should I consider? I'd like to be future-proof and have both DSD and PCM capability. Source may be computer (Toslink / USB) or CD. My best digital files are 96/24 PCM, but I may wade into computer DSD someday.

[Colin Dunn]

I am almost beginning to sound lie a shill here, but try feeding those 44.16/16 CDs through software that can transcode to DSD, and into a DSD capable DAC. (Not sure if the Integra can take DSD from USB or not...)

 

The Integra 9.8 has DSD decoding on-board. I haven't tried any transcoding or upsampling yet, but if I did it would be over HDMI.

 

Seems digital sound quality has a voodoo aspect to it. Some prefer minimal processing; others upsample everything.

 

When it comes to DACs, the Teac UD-501 and Rega are on my short list. The Teac checks all boxes for features, though I need the best sound I can get out of Redbook CDs and FLAC files.

[Paul R]

I have not been successful transmitting DSD audio over HDMI, but if you can, that would be ideal.

 

It really isn't Voodoo or Hoodo or any other kind of foodoo in this case. Some DACs can process DSD much better than they can PCM data. Not all, some might be the same, and some might even sound worse. In my case, DSD sounds much more analog than anything else I have heard digital on my system. That seems to be true, albeit, to a slightly lesser degree, even when transcoding PCM to DSD for playback.

 

It also seems a bit like a no-brainer in your case, since you like the sound of SACDs on your system.

 

Yours,

-Paul

 

 

The Integra 9.8 has DSD decoding on-board. I haven't tried any transcoding or upsampling yet, but if I did it would be over HDMI.

 

Seems digital sound quality has a voodoo aspect to it. Some prefer minimal processing; others upsample everything.

 

When it comes to DACs, the Teac UD-501 and Rega are on my short list. The Teac checks all boxes for features, though I need the best sound I can get out of Redbook CDs and FLAC files.

[ecwl]

I'm not sure the thin and bright sound you're getting is definitely from the Integra. Possibly but not definitely. Have you tried hooking up your Oppo BDP-103 directly to the Sunfire for your stereo speakers and using the Oppo's digital volume control? You've got to be careful not to blow your amp or speaker or it's also possible that even at maximum volume, the Oppo output may not make your speakers sound very loud. Hard to know until you try it. Does that still sound thin and bright? In general, even the entry-level Oppo are generally not too thin or bright.

 

I've found most of the time when things sound too thin or bright, it's because there's not enough toe-in with the stereo speakers or there is too much separation between the stereo speakers. Sometimes people think the wider the speakers, the better the soundstage but they just end up thinning out the sound. It's often a delicate balance. Sometimes a couple of inches or a few degrees can make a huge difference. That said, it's also true that upgrading to a different DAC might give you more warmth. But then again, it might not, especially if the problem is with speaker placement.

[thrand1]

A few random thoughts/suggestions if you haven't tried them already...

 

1) If you do decide on getting a new DAC, I would suggest going the "alternate front-end" setup as you mentioned in your first post. If you get a new DAC, and then connect the output of that DAC to the Integra, the differences in DACs may be minimized unless you are listening using the "Direct" or "Pure Audio" mode. In any other mode, even regular ol "Stereo", the Integra would perform an ADC then another DAC process through its own circuitry.

2) Have you tried running the Audyssey EQ program built into the Integra? I know any EQ programs are often frowned upon around here, but without knowing anything about the room that this setup is in, it could very well be the environment and the way the speakers are setup (as ecwl pointed out). Since it is free, it might be worth a shot to see if it improves the sound for you! If you like the results of the Audyssey EQ, you actually have access to an even higher grade of Audyssey called Audyssey Pro, where an installer comes to your location and performs an even more extensive setup, including the potential capability to alter EQ curves to your preference. Of course, this does cost money, but I still think trying Audyssey is worth a shot. It really changed the performance of my system, in my room.

3) With your HTPC, you could try doing what Paul has suggested- upsample your CD audio to a higher resolution (if not DSD, maybe 24/192?). This could be accomplished using free programs like foobar2000, and then you can run it via HDMI into your Integra and see if there is any meaningful difference.

[Colin Dunn]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Here are some of my thoughts and additional info.

 

The placement of the speakers is limited by room dimensions and also a movie screen. I've put them as close together as possible, but they are 8' apart. I wish I could get them further from the back wall (currently about 2'6" clearance).

 

I'm running Audyssey on the Integra. It made an improvement. I've thought about getting a pro kit to do a more detailed calibration.

 

I'm also aware of the ADC/DAC process on the Integra. I've tried the Oppo to the multichannel input, which bypasses this process. Slightly better, but still not awe-inspiring.

 

Guess I'll try upsampling next.

 

As for my "voodoo" comment - what I meant is that I've seen reviews that claim advantages for omitting oversampling or sample-rate conversion.

 

As for my DAC short list:

 

Schiit Audio Gungnir + Nano DSD. Don't like the two-box solution though.

Teac UD-501. Best feature set, but does it deliver truly audiophile sound?

Musical Fidelity M1-A. Good reputation, but no DSD and may be dated compared to others.

Rega DAC. Similar concerns as the Musical Fidelity, and in a higher price range.

 

 

Any others to consider?

[Paul R]

I see. Well, I would have sworn that I would not like or even dislike upsampling, but hey - who knew?

 

The iDSD Nano or Micro will both handle PCM data without batting an eye, and do so very very well indeed, so with either of those two DACs in the mix, you do not need a second box for PCM. iFI /AMR is rather proud of how they take and play just about any format natively, and justifiably so.

 

-Paul

 

 

Thanks everyone for your responses. Here are some of my thoughts and additional info.

 

The placement of the speakers is limited by room dimensions and also a movie screen. I've put them as close together as possible, but they are 8' apart. I wish I could get them further from the back wall (currently about 2'6" clearance).

 

I'm running Audyssey on the Integra. It made an improvement. I've thought about getting a pro kit to do a more detailed calibration.

 

I'm also aware of the ADC/DAC process on the Integra. I've tried the Oppo to the multichannel input, which bypasses this process. Slightly better, but still not awe-inspiring.

 

Guess I'll try upsampling next.

 

As for my "voodoo" comment - what I meant is that I've seen reviews that claim advantages for omitting oversampling or sample-rate conversion.

 

As for my DAC short list:

 

Schiit Audio Gungnir + Nano DSD. Don't like the two-box solution though.

Teac UD-501. Best feature set, but does it deliver truly audiophile sound?

Musical Fidelity M1-A. Good reputation, but no DSD and may be dated compared to others.

 

Any others to consider?

[Colin Dunn]

An update...

 

So I finally got around to installing JRiver and configuring upsampling. I tried both 88.2 and 176.4 for CD-quality (44.1/16) FLAC files.

 

I perceived a small improvement going to 88.2. I didn't notice a difference going to 176.4. But I still think the Integra is likely the weak link.

 

I found an Audio Research LS-7 stereo pre for sale and am awaiting shipment. Still need to pick out a DAC, but am leaning toward the TEAC UD-501. Hopefully, I can find a way to get warmer, more forgiving sound for CD and 44.1/16 sources.

[Colin Dunn]

Seems I can't figure out how to get DSD bitstreaming over HDMI using JRiver either. It supports the DoP standard, but that outputs low-level noise as 176.4K PCM. So I wasn't able to compare DSD output to high-bit-rate PCM. However, I've overall preferred high-bit-rate PCM on the Integra.

[speavler]

Are you sure those are the speakers for you? I know they're very popular and many audiophiles crave the transparency and holographic imaging, but - and this is just my opinion and tastes - ribbon/electrostatics can sound thin. Fine line between thin and transparent. And Maggies need space, as you probably know, to achieve the figure 8 radiating pattern. I have found I prefer the dynamics that traditional high efficiency cone-driver box speakers can produce. (High-efficiency speakers also allow you more flexibility in amplification.)

 

I do think the preamp for the stereo setup is a right move. I also think it will be difficult to get that tube sound without an actual tube power amp. Unfortunately, a tube amp that will properly drive those Maggies might be a bit pricey. I have heard good things about some of these new Class D amps from companies like Peachtree and Wyred 4 Sound that are easily powerful enough for the Maggies, and often see the sound described as warm, somewhat tube-like. I've not experienced them personally, however.

 

The DAC should be, imo, one of the final pieces to add to the puzzle after you feel you're at least heading into the right direction for you and the sound you want to achieve. The differences to me are pretty subtle. More important, or at least equally important, are the power considerations - having your analog isolated as much as possible from your digital, for example. Power cord tweaks, etc.

[ecwl]

Your Integra doesn't support DSD over DoP. You can only get DSD via HDMI off the Integra if you're playing an SACD off the Oppo. It's a completely different copy-protected DSD transmission method. In fact, I don't even know which DAC supports DSD over DoP via HDMI. I believe most DACs only implement DSD over DoP via USB +/- S/PDIF.

[christopher3393]

Hi Colin,

 

I personally found the Musical Fidelity M1-A to have good clarity and detail, but a bit bright and etched, fatiguing. Have not heard the TEAC, but it has been thoroughly reviewed and consistently characterized as slightly warm and dark, which should work well for you. I've heard the Rega DAC and found it wonderful for classical music, but not so with electronica. I strongly recommend an audition in your system with an option to return.

[Colin Dunn]

Are you sure those are the speakers for you? I know they're very popular and many audiophiles crave the transparency and holographic imaging, but - and this is just my opinion and tastes - ribbon/electrostatics can sound thin. Fine line between thin and transparent.

 

...

 

I also think it will be difficult to get that tube sound without an actual tube power amp. Unfortunately, a tube amp that will properly drive those Maggies might be a bit pricey.

 

The power amp part should be OK with the Sunfire Stereo II. I'm using the current source outputs.

 

I've heard these speakers with a warmer/higher-quality front-end. Solid state DAC and power amp, tube pre (Cal Sigma, Sonic Frontiers Line-1, various power amps including the Sunfire). I know they are capable of more than I'm getting out of them today.

[Colin Dunn]

You can only get DSD via HDMI off the Integra if you're playing an SACD off the Oppo. It's a completely different copy-protected DSD transmission method.

 

Thanks for the info, that explains a lot. Looks like PCM only until I get a DAC with USB input options.

 

I thought there were Blu-ray player apps that could stream encrypted audio over HDMI, but I guess they never implemented DSD due to the lack of computer support for SACD playback.

[speavler]

The power amp part should be OK with the Sunfire Stereo II. I'm using the current source outputs.

 

I've heard these speakers with a warmer/higher-quality front-end. Solid state DAC and power amp, tube pre (Cal Sigma, Sonic Frontiers Line-1, various power amps including the Sunfire). I know they are capable of more than I'm getting out of them today.

 

When you get your pre, try using just the voltage output. I have the original sunfire stereo amp (sitting in my garage, needs to be re-cap'd) - i always prefered the voltage source.

[beanbag]

It's too thin and bright sounding, especially for 44.1/16 CD. I'm happier with SACD and DVD-A performance. Those Maggies want a warm, high-quality source and amps; what I have today doesn't do CD audio justice. I will want lush, warm, almost tube-like sound, but would prefer solid state to avoid the headaches of tubes.

 

I would start by getting a mic and measure the freq response of your system. Maybe that is sub-optimal. Try adjusting the toe of your speakers, and experiment with some sound absorbing panels behind them.

[Colin Dunn]

Well, after days of waffling on the DAC (finalists were Schiit Audio Gungnir, Teac UD-501, and Jolida Glass FX Mk. 3), I ordered the TEAC. It looked like the best compromise between "techie" features (DSD128, DXD, selectable filters) and has a reputation for warm, musically involving sound quality. I was very tempted to try the Jolida, as it was $350 less than the Teac, but its computer interfaces aren't as up-to-date. If I don't like the Teac, I'll send it back and try the Jolida next.

 

As for my existing system - I think the SQ issues aren't only about frequency response in-room. It's about analytical, overly "digital" sound. Some Integra 9.8 owners upgraded to the 80.3 to get better DACs, but they lost HD Radio (which I want to have).

 

Sunfire recommends current source for planars. I don't really notice much of a difference between the two.