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Uh oh, I beat my SD card trick; Bypass your Ethernet switch, and make your external drives sound close to RAM disk using an Apple Thunderbolt Ethernet Adaptor and a second network connection.


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It's a happy Friday for me folks because I have simultaneously solved my dilemma and ended up with the best SQ so far from hard disk--and oh, spoiler alert, it equals or beats music playback from my Mavericks/A+ SDHC card!

 

 

[For those just running across this new thread, it is hopefully the last stage of my research to find the ultimate sound quality from my 2 Mac mini set-up in my listening studio/office. I type here at my desk on a 2012 i7 mini and screen share control the dedicated, SD card booted Mavericks/A+ 2010 Core 2 Duo mini at the bottom of my equipment stand 8 feet behind me. If you are interested in my prior carefully done storage/transport tests leading up to this, please refer to these other popular threads: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/my-deep-dive-media-storage-interfaces-musical-differences-heard-between-chipsets-firewire-400-800-usb-sata-flash-drives-sd-cards-and-network-shares-warning-may-cause-seizures-dbt-crowd-and-flat-earth-naysayers-18108/

and

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/attention-current-mac-mini-users-boot-mavericks-sd-card-load-ramdisk-dismount-your-internal-sata-drives-and-pour-drink-musicians-walking-out-your-speakers-18159/]

 

 

What I am now doing came about because of frustration with not wanting to store music on SD card, not wanting to always have to load tracks into RAM disk for best SQ, and not being satisfied with even my favorite, quiet FW400-only drive connection.

(Disclosure: I do not have any SSD's to try, and only my desk system has a Thunderbolt port, so even if I had a TB drive and ended up liking the SQ of that interface, I'd have to both upgrade to a newer mini and buy TB drives or TB>eSATA adapter, etc.)

 

Putting my music storage on my desk and sharing it was always an option, and one I tried before, ranking it about equal to playback from the music computer's internal SATA HD, with some fatiguing artifact that made me uncomfortable.

At the beginning of this week I bypassed my Cisco 10-port managed switch by just running the cable from Mac-to-Mac. Sound quality was outstanding, doing that spooky "how can it get that real?" trick-- even with the same loose old 25-ft Cat5 thats been there for years.

 

It was very easy to hear the difference between running through the switch and going direct. But talk about inconvenient! Now neither machine would have internet or LAN access.

So I ordered the $29 Apple Thunderbolt Gigabit Ethernet Adapter and added a second network connection to my desktop 2012 mini. The adaptor makes this possible (an oh so easy, just like an Apple) by generating its own device MAC address. So now with the regular Ethernet port connected direct to the 2010 music machine, and the TB adaptor with a short line to my switch, my desk machine has internet/LAN access.

 

Checked the sound; yup, still terrific. By the way, A+ pulling the tracks over Ethernet makes the differences between music storage interfaces (at the far end, my desk, then over the LAN cable) much reduced. I could hear the difference between pulling the same track off my desktop internal HD and the FW400 connected/shared--but the FW400 was the tiniest bit better! Probably because on my work desktop machine I am not doing ANYTHING to clean it up--the OS and and a ton of installed s/w is running on this machine. But this is nothing at all like the gross differences I heard between all drive interfaces connected at the player end.

 

Audirvana Playlist mode makes doing these comparisons easy--and blind--because any track you drag in, from any accessible volume, is tied to that location. So I can have 4 copies of St. James Infirmary appear listed exactly the same in one playlist, but they each play from a different location (shared drive over LAN cable, any internal/external HD, SD card, RAM disk). After comparison, the only way to know which was which is to go to those locations, move or delete the file, then go back into A+ and see which one now won't play.

 

Anyway, back to the internet connection thing: The music mini with just its one Ethernet line to my desktop, still needs web access so it can get track names, artwork, and online music streams. Simple, I just went into Sharing (on my dual network desk machine and set Internet Sharing on for a computer connected via Ethernet. Very cool.

 

Obviously this particular setup is not for everyone. But it is a neat and flexible trick that may work for others. It not only solved my problem, but it resulted in the very best sound I can yet get--short of loading tracks into RAM disk. The RAM disk (for the music files) is still the reference, but this comes MUCH closer than I ever expected--especially with a better 25 foot Ethernet cable!

(But the 4-way Cat5/6/6a UTP/STP shoot out I did today won't get reported until this weekend. I'm hungry and the kids brought home pizza!)

 

So if you are inclined, and one of your Macs has both Thunderbolt and Ethernet, then order up Apples's little white adaptor and have fun.

 

Regards,

Alex Crespi

UpTone Audio LLC

 

 

P.S.

Anticipating the question, I tried reversing and using the Thunderbolt/Ethernet port (on the desktop) for the connection to the music system: IT WAS DREADFUL! Slow sounding, almost comatose, and lacking all like-life impact. As big a difference as any between local to player HD interfaces, I'd rank it barely above 6th-place USB HD connection. And this at the far end of an Ethernet cable. Go figure.

 

BTW, to Roch (elcorso): When Thunderbolt has the Ethernet Adaptor attached, it does not appear under the SATA bus--as you showed us it does when the TB has a drive attached. It shows only under the Thunderbolt tree in Sytem Report. Interesting.

 

P.P.S.

The 2010/11/12 Mac minis all use the same Broadcom controller chip that handles both Ethernet and the SD card reader. So this may account for the near-identical sound I am getting between music on SD card versus coming in on Ethernet. This game is at least consistent in telling us that it is all about the noise/processing of the active interface.

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Seems unlikely you could get the same sound quality with an ethernet connection that lets you get to the internet. So much extremely low, low, low level noise would have to get across from nearly the rest of the entire world vs not having that connection how could it still sound good? And with connections outside you will never have a completely stable amount of OS activity from one listen to the next. Pretty incredible if you ask me. (and I know you didn't)

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Seems unlikely you could get the same sound quality with an ethernet connection that lets you get to the internet. So much extremely low, low, low level noise would have to get across from nearly the rest of the entire world vs not having that connection how could it still sound good? And with connections outside you will never have a completely stable amount of OS activity from one listen to the next. Pretty incredible if you ask me. (and I know you didn't)

 

Liken it to power cord claims that ignore the thousands of miles of parallel cable before there home and the wire nuts! splice boxes, buss bars, etc before the wall receptacle where the cable plugs in.

 

Identifying solder through listening was pretty juicy, but this?...............

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Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

A while back I abandoned the NAS because of noise being picked up, likely from all the other gear sharing the home network (tv, internet modem, switches, all other computers). Listening fatigue was unbearable. With an Acoustic Revive LAN filter the speed and latency dropped too low for Amarra to work.

 

I am curious whether a simple TBolt drive, especially with a linear PSU will not be better though? Guess I will have to try the $29 gadget and compare.

 

Perhaps TBolt is better at rejecting common mode noise than a LAN connection?

 

By the way, are you still using SD cards for the OS drives on both Macs?

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Alex, that dissertation above was tricky to follow ... my brain hurts! A diagram ...

macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs.

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I am curious whether a simple TBolt drive, especially with a linear PSU will not be better though? Guess I will have to try the $29 gadget and compare.

 

Perhaps TBolt is better at rejecting common mode noise than a LAN connection?

 

By the way, are you still using SD cards for the OS drives on both Macs?

 

You may have misunderstood me Tranz: I did not like the sound of the TB>Ethernet adapter (at desktop shared drive end) at all.

And although I have not tried a TB hard drive direct on the music player Mac yet (actually have swap the two machines because my desktop is currently the only one with a TB port; plus I have to get a TB drive), what I heard from the TB>Ethernet adapter (from the desktop share side) was surprisingly bad and does not make me anxious to try a TB drive. They are different things I know. But the similarity of the SD card and the built in Ethernet (with a good straight connection), is making me believe that that Broadcom chip controlling them both (its a PCIe bus) may be something special in the minis.

 

With regards my use of SD cards: I use one to boot for the OS and A+, iTunes, utilis, etc. only on the 2010 music player mini. No way could I/would I want to on the desktop side. This is my business machine running lots of intensive apps.

 

So now I am thrilled to be able to roam and play from my full music library on hard drive without feeling sonically compromised. The RAM disk is now the only means I have heard that is a little bit better. No more comparisons for a few days--I've got a collection to explore!

 

Next week I pull the switching supply and go linear. Well…maybe this weekend. ;-)

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I knew this would happen sooner or later,........the revelations would continue and become more spectacular to the point of absurdity.

 

Seems absurd to me too. But it is easy to hear A/B/A/B/A. Come to Yosemite Mayhem. I promise you it won't take but an afternoon and you'll either have to go into denial or believe your ears.

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You may have misunderstood me Tranz: I did not like the sound of the TB>Ethernet adapter (at desktop shared drive end) at all.

And although I have not tried a TB hard drive direct on the music player Mac yet (actually have swap the two machines because my desktop is currently the only one with a TB port; plus I have to get a TB drive), what I heard from the TB>Ethernet adapter (from the desktop share side) was surprisingly bad and does not make me anxious to try a TB drive. They are different things I know. But the similarity of the SD card and the built in Ethernet (with a good straight connection), is making me believe that that Broadcom chip controlling them both (its a PCIe bus) may be something special in the minis.

 

With regards my use of SD cards: I use one to boot for the OS and A+, iTunes, utilis, etc. only on the 2010 music player mini. No way could I/would I want to on the desktop side. This is my business machine running lots of intensive apps.

 

So now I am thrilled to be able to roam and play from my full music library on hard drive without feeling sonically compromised. The RAM disk is now the only means I have heard that is a little bit better. No more comparisons for a few days--I've got a collection to explore!

 

Next week I pull the switching supply and go linear. Well…maybe this weekend. ;-)

 

Hi Superdad,

 

The setup seems similar to having the music on a NAS that is directly connected to the Mac. NAS is essentially a small, often linux based, computer anyway. Agree that taking out the switch is an improvement by lessening listening fatigue. I tried that with the Synology a while back, but as you said, you still need a way to remote desktop/VNC in. TBolt drive still sounded less fatiguing in my setup for some reason at the time.

 

I am surprised that it sounds better though especially since you have no LAN filters in place and a 'noisy' source linked through ethernet Perhaps try it again after you have the linear PSU.

 

With every tweak I have done, it happens to shine the light on the next weakest link, which is sometimes hard to pinpoint. The CAD Daemon script was a huge improvement in my system this week. Still waiting for the SDXD card so I can stuff the OS on it and remove the SATA rig completely.

 

Enjoy the new setup!

 

Cheers

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This is easy to explain.

Superdad removed a complex machine with an external PSU (the Cisco switch) and replaced it with a simple machine with no extra PSU (the TB-Ethernet converter). There is no “noice” coming from “the internet”.

Roon client on iPad/MacBookPro

Roon Server & HQPlayer on Mac Mini 2.0 GHz i7 with JS-2

LPS-1 & ultraRendu → Lampizator Atlantic → Bent Audio TAP-X → Atma-sphere M60 → Zero autoformers → Harbeth Compact 7 ES-3

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This is easy to explain.

Superdad removed a complex machine with an external PSU (the Cisco switch) and replaced it with a simple machine with no extra PSU (the TB-Ethernet converter). There is no “noice” coming from “the internet”.

 

IMO Not so easy to explain as ethernet is galvanic isolated and have a data layer added for data integrity.

More probable the audio eth chain is not bugged with eth brodcasts and similar packets.

And I don't presume that the switch is located anywhere near the audio rack.

 

If I understood correctly TB-eth controller is used for the connection to the rest of his network.

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For right now I'm not interested in going this particular route, because I've been so very happy listening with A+ and music on RAMdisks. And since I have a MBP running from battery, no linear PSU required.

 

Though I'm not booting from an SD card, very happy to have my collection on SD cards anyway since it means I can easily bring all my music along when I travel.

 

The two areas I'm currently interested in exploring further are both concerned with quieting down the computer internally. I may look into SD card booting, though I'm also very intrigued by the thought of netbooting, which souptin raised in one of the other threads and which I remember from FreeBSD. And the other of course is to look at the scripts for getting rid of various non-essential services.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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This is easy to explain.

Superdad removed a complex machine with an external PSU (the Cisco switch) and replaced it with a simple machine with no extra PSU (the TB-Ethernet converter).

 

As "cmiu" correctly stated, I use the Thunderbolt>Ethernet adaptor only for the desktop machine's connection to the internet (and the rest of the house LAN since the other drives on my desk are family photo/video backup). The music player Mac does not have a Thunderbolt port at all.

And as pointed out in one of my P.S. at the end of the report, I found the sound running from the TB adapter to music mini to be dreadful and slow, totally lacking in dynamic feeling. Was a bigger difference (for the worse) than anything I have tried in the last two months.

 

BTW, to Tranz: With the RJ-45-to-RJ-45 direct Mac-to-Mac connection in place, I then compared the SQ with the TB adaptor (to Cisco switch) unplugged versus plugged in. No sonic difference whatsoever. So if junk is coming back into the desktop Mac via the switch and TB adapter, I am not hearing it.

I still would like to try the Acoustic Revive LAN filter (I'd have several spots to try it in), but I can't afford to do so without having a return policy if it does not do much for my system.

 

There is no “noise” coming from “the internet”.

 

Isn't what goes on on the internet ALL noise?! :-)

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For right now I'm not interested in going this particular route, because I've been so very happy listening with A+ and music on RAMdisks. And since I have a MBP running from battery, no linear PSU required.

 

Though I'm not booting from an SD card, very happy to have my collection on SD cards anyway since it means I can easily bring all my music along when I travel.

 

The two areas I'm currently interested in exploring further are both concerned with quieting down the computer internally. I may look into SD card booting, though I'm also very intrigued by the thought of netbooting, which souptin raised in one of the other threads and which I remember from FreeBSD. And the other of course is to look at the scripts for getting rid of various non-essential services.

 

Thinking about this a little more, I don't have another Mac to NetBoot from, and even if the desktop upstairs would host the image, the MacBook Pro would get it through an Airport Express with a SMPS. Booting from an SD card vs. an SSD wouldn't get rid of a spinning drive, and would put my boot drive on the USB bus, not a great thing.

 

So looks like the easiest, cheapest and most conservative step, getting rid of unnecessary services, is the one most likely to pay off.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I forgot to mention in my report that for the direct desk-to-player Ethernet link I tried all the available speed, duplex, and MTU settings (under Hardware tab in the Advanced settings for Network). I thought perhaps 100M/bit or even 10M/bit might sound better, but that was not the case. Gigabit (1000BaseT) did sound the best. Weird that the difference could even be heard, but it was pretty obvious.

 

And I did try using an old G4 Mac mini as the Ethernet-direct host for music files. It did not sound nearly as good as sharing the i7 on my desk in the same manner.

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Alex C

Are we close now to the trial of one of yours and John Swenson's prototype linear PSUs for the Mini Mac?

I have a feeling it could be a real game changer. Even non essential services shouldn't be the problem they can be now ?

Regards

Alex K

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Alex C

Are we close now to the trial of one of yours and John Swenson's prototype linear PSUs for the Mini Mac?

I have a feeling it could be a real game changer. Even non essential services shouldn't be the problem they can be now ?

Regards

Alex K

 

Hi Alex K:

I am doing surgery on my Mac mini as we speak! And I just off the phone with John who was up late last night laying out the 2 PCBs for the pre-production version of the PS. Until I have the full PS prototype, I'll run my Mini with the giant 12V/10A Astron linear I picked up cheap.

 

I needed to do the tests detailed in this report in order to decide to keep my 2010 mini for my music player. Now I am content with it an don't mind ripping everything out of it. I'm going to pull the SMPS, the SATA HD (booting just from SD now), the wifi circuitry, Bluetooth, etc. Only the motherboard will remain.

 

As far as if having the computer running on a linear supply will render all these other factors irrelevant, that remains to be seen. My past experiences tell me that is unlikely.

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I'm really happy that you folks (Alex and Jud and a few others) are running these tests and saving the rest of us a lot of time and effort. I'm rather amazed that nobody (correct?) has compared all of these changes to the fairly inexpensive alternatives of an internal SSD and linear PSU, it seems to have been a logical step some months earlier. Although I understand why an LPSU won't solve everything, there are simply to many noise sources in the tight space of the motherboard (downstream of the PS) to fix that problem.

 

I would support a project that makes these trials systematic and coordinated, and measured. There are certainly many thousand Mac-savvy audiophiles out there who would like some simple answers they can trust, as well as measurements. For example, some IMD and noise comparisons for different configurations makes a lot of sense to me. Seriously, it is really time for some measurement of these phenomena. Maybe we could have a subscription and pitch in for the effort. Right now I have a Mac Mini with with two pieces of tweak hardware (external drive and HDMI Detective) that I wasn't counting on needing for good sound. I could add another 2 or more, an iFi USB adapter and and a linear PSU, but that ain't gonna happen--I'd rather build or buy a proper Vortexbox or CAPS server and keep it clean. Anyway, thank you folks for this hard and careful work, I enjoy the reports and hope to really learn something.

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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For anyone who wants to compare an internal SSD with other alternatives, I'll mention that Newegg has sales on 64 and 128GB SSDs for very reasonable prices (I think there's at least one of the 64GB models in the $50-$60 range).

 

For folks who prefer lots of storage, 1TB SSDs are going for around $550 these days.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I'm really happy that you folks (Alex and Jud and a few others) are running these tests and saving the rest of us a lot of time and effort. I'm rather amazed that nobody (correct?) has compared all of these changes to the fairly inexpensive alternatives of an internal SSD and linear PSU, it seems to have been a logical step some months earlier. Although I understand why an LPSU won't solve everything, there are simply to many noise sources in the tight space of the motherboard (downstream of the PS) to fix that problem.

 

I would support a project that makes these trials systematic and coordinated, and measured. There are certainly many thousand Mac-savvy audiophiles out there who would like some simple answers they can trust, as well as measurements. For example, some IMD and noise comparisons for different configurations makes a lot of sense to me. Seriously, it is really time for some measurement of these phenomena. Maybe we could have a subscription and pitch in for the effort. Right now I have a Mac Mini with with two pieces of tweak hardware (external drive and HDMI Detective) that I wasn't counting on needing for good sound. I could add another 2 or more, an iFi USB adapter and and a linear PSU, but that ain't gonna happen--I'd rather build or buy a proper Vortexbox or CAPS server and keep it clean. Anyway, thank you folks for this hard and careful work, I enjoy the reports and hope to really learn something.

 

The problem Sam, is precisely the cost of good LPSU, like the Mojo I have, with an external DCV linear source, plus internal PSU modifications (filters). This way you solve most of the problems. Also good (low latency) internal SSD & RAM, since they are also expensive.

 

The huge merit of Superdad (Alex C.) method is the simplicity by adding only SD cards to your playback, but as I said some time ago, impractical (at least to me).

 

In my case it helped a lot also the substitution of external Firewire hard drives (where the music library is) by Thunderbolt ones.

 

In my case the iFi USB power worked very well removing noise.

 

I don't have any "measured proofs" that they work, although if I could try to do it, I don't like to measure the 'secrets' of digital audio, where, even manufacturers and digital engineers criteria do not match, and some of them, with the actual technology, are impossible to measure (or we are measuring the wrong issues).

 

My only "proof" is what I hear, plus that of some few friends who visit me, with same DAC and audio gear for a long time.

 

Roch

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A laptop allows easy use of battery power, eliminating the need for an LPSU. However, it will be more expensive to start with, and particularly with regard to RAM there unfortunately is now no way to add more post-purchase. It's surface-mounted to allow an ever-slimmer profile and lighter weight. So maxing RAM with the laptop must be done as a purchase time upgrade, which is of course more expensive.

 

One of the tradeoffs between Mini and MBP if you want 16GB of RAM and no SMPS.

 

Edit: Ah, and one other thing - SD cards are a very nice way of eliminating an external HDD connection (I liked the sound better with external HDD disconnected, at least with FW and USB), if you don't have a huge music collection. If you do, looks like some variant of Thunderbolt and/or Ethernet is the way to go, unless you are willing to go through the inconvenience of moving the music to a RAMdisk and unplugging.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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For anyone who wants to compare an internal SSD with other alternatives, I'll mention that Newegg has sales on 64 and 128GB SSDs for very reasonable prices (I think there's at least one of the 64GB models in the $50-$60 range).

 

Thanks for the lead Jud. If I can get a 64GB SSD for less than $60 I will do that just so I can test it out on the Seagate STAE128 portable Thunderbolt adapter I got for $80. As most of you know, Thunderbolt is the only interface I have not bee able to do an SQ test for myself with (other than using the Apple TB>Ethernet Adapter--the subject of this thread--and that was dreadful!).

 

In fact, testing Thunderbolt versus my switch-bypassing Ethernet-to-shared-drive is really my last step to determine where I will house my main music library. If TB interface sounds good enough to me (has to first beat or equal SD card and Ethernet--which as reported are now equal with a really good Cat6a cable), then I will consider a future investment in both large TB storage (SSD vs HD will have to be checked), and a new Mac mini with Thunderbolt for my music machine.

 

Regards,

ALEX

 

P.S. I am now researching setting up my direct Mac-to-Mac Ethernet connection with either UDP/NFS or an iSCSI SAN to see if those more efficient protocols result in even better SQ. iSCSI is hard because the only OS X Target s/w I can find goes for $900. Some NAS units come with iSCSI Target s/w, but I'm not going to buy a NAS box. (Though I did see this attractive QNAP fanless dual-drive unit for $290: Amazon.com: QNAP 2-bay Fanless Quiet NAS Home Media Storage Center (HS-210): Computers & Accessories)

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