Recommeded upgrade for a music lovers HT setup?

[mitebbots]

Right now i have a nice HT setup, but it fails for music listening. Willing to invest some dough, but i do not have room for a separate 2-channel system.

 

current system:

Onkyo TX-NR818

Usher S-520 satellites and S-525 center channel speakers

HSU Subs

HTPC Windows 7 w/HT Omega Claro Halo sound card, ATI HDMI Out.

Audio-GD NFB-12 DAC/Headphone amp

 

all my music is in FLAC and use J River for music.

 

With the Audio-GD DAC plugged into the Onkyo, really no real improvement in sound. no way to bypass the pre-amp in the Onkyo.

 

face it, it works ok for movies, but fails for music. I do like to listen to just the satellites late at night for music.

 

I have heard my speakers on a friends 2-channel system that is Cary Audio etc. and they sound *great* on that system, more than happy with that sound.

 

budget is around $1500, and was thinking first of all a better DAC, maybe Audio-Gd Compass 2, then possible small Integrated amp with HT Bypass? i know that doesn't get high-end equipment, just looking for upgraded music listening.

 

what about a speaker switcher, or just manually switch the speaker banana plugs when i want to do 2-channel music?

 

was trying to toggle between the Coaxial out on my sound card for music, and the HDMI audio out for movies, pretty hard to always change all the settings so I gave up on that. not sure i heard a difference with my level of electronics anyway.

 

thanks for any ideas, not sure which way to go at this point.

[realhifi]

I would sell your Onkyo and get this: SC-77 - <b>9.2 Channel Multi-Zone, Networked, Class D³ AV Receiver</b> | Pioneer Electronics USA

 

Superb new receiver from these guys and plays anything digital you throw at it. Seriously, you'd love it.

[mitebbots]

Class D? I would like to hear it. So far have not heard any HT receiver that i liked for music, I bought several and sent them all back:

Denon x4000

Marantz 7008

Emotiva UMC-200 + UPA-700

 

bought the Onkyo for something use "for now" and it turns out one of the more musical, still not there tho.

 

I will listen to the SC-77.

 

Been searching for a box to switch between 2 amps and one set speakers, nothing real high quality so far.

[mayhem13]

Welcome....as a guy who also has a dedicated home theater, I understand where you're coming from for two channel. Some simple truths.....

 

Switching speaker selectors or computer configurations is a royal PITA and would probobly never develop as an acceptable routine for 2 channel listening.....

 

You enjoyed your Ushers with your friends gear.....but didn't mention other variables which are pretty relevant to your situation. Was this at his home? What about your subs? As you already know, half the listening experience is the room.....The other half the system. Subwoofers can play a huge role in the perceived clarity of the remaining response. The 'problem' might lie with the sub(s) and their integration. Have you tried listening to the Ushers with the sub(s) off?

 

....and I'm not saying subs are the devil....I have four in my HT and couldn't live without them for music.

[crisnee]

I agree with Mayhem and would take it a step further.

 

If two speaker sound is really important to you (which it seems to be) I'd do a lot of experimenting with speaker placement. I'd temporarily deconstruct my setup, and just set it up for two speakers without subs. (Listen to your movies in stereo for a few weeks, no big deal really). Then place the speakers in various places to see where you get the best sound from them.

 

First though, you might want to do a bit of research or get the very good book by Jim Smith named something like Get Better Sound. This book has stuff that is useful for experienced audiophiles never mind average folk and very detailed instructions on how best to set up your listening room, plus lots of other cheap or free fixes.

 

Then I'd add in the subs and I'd dial them in so I didn't notice them particularly, but just heard more solidity and depth to the music when called for. Again placing them is very important and setting up subs well is often not easy.

 

Speaker placement can make a bigger difference than most people imagine, much more than equipment upgrades. And dialing in the subs can also make a large difference, particularly if you set them up poorly to begin with.

 

Chris.

[mitebbots]

I usually listen to just the Ushers without the subs for music. I know there are a lot of factors that can improve sound, but this was a huge difference. I just don't think i will ever get music out of this receiver like i would with a nice 2-channel piece. Thanks for everything, will work on the room first!

[maelob]

If you are happy with ht all you need to add is an integrated amp with ht bypass connected to your receiver pre out. Peachtree, wyred4sound. Marantz pm 8004 have that capability. You will have the best of both words.

[Audio_ELF]

If you are happy with ht all you need to add is an integrated amp with ht bypass connected to your receiver pre out. Peachtree, wyred4sound. Marantz pm 8004 have that capability. You will have the best of both words.

I agree with this too ... I was going to suggest Peachtree (as they also have a good DAC built in) but it looks like they have dropped the HT Bypass function.

[maelob]

Harman Kardon Hk990 also have that feature

[macuniverse]

Welcome....as a guy who also has a dedicated home theater, I understand where you're coming from for two channel. Some simple truths.....

 

Switching speaker selectors or computer configurations is a royal PITA and would probobly never develop as an acceptable routine for 2 channel listening.....

 

You enjoyed your Ushers with your friends gear.....but didn't mention other variables which are pretty relevant to your situation. Was this at his home? What about your subs? As you already know, half the listening experience is the room.....The other half the system. Subwoofers can play a huge role in the perceived clarity of the remaining response. The 'problem' might lie with the sub(s) and their integration. Have you tried listening to the Ushers with the sub(s) off?

 

....and I'm not saying subs are the devil....I have four in my HT and couldn't live without them for music.

 

+1

 

I was going to say the same thing but mayhem13 beat me to it!

 

I suggest you take baby steps before you get the urge to buy/sell stuff. I have a very similar situation to yours. I have Onkyo 818 as part of my HT setup. I also have (in a separate room) 2.0 Usher 520 stereo setup connected to a Denon integrated amp just for casual music listening. They sound totally different if I put them into different rooms. I think it would be a big mistake to ignore the room factor(s) when testing your options.

 

BTW, I think Onkyo 818 is a very nice A/B class AVR with top class room correction tool.

[mayhem13]

I usually listen to just the Ushers without the subs for music. I know there are a lot of factors that can improve sound, but this was a huge difference. I just don't think i will ever get music out of this receiver like i would with a nice 2-channel piece. Thanks for everything, will work on the room first!

 

How does your space compare to your friend's? It's likely a BIG part of what you're hearing is his his space, as well as the source gear. It sounds like an HT pre-pro setup is in the cards for you. I run 3 power amps.....two stereo and a three channel all Parasound. Do you have a budget?

[Audio_ELF]

How does your space compare to your friend's? It's likely a BIG part of what you're hearing is his his space, as well as the source gear. It sounds like an HT pre-pro setup is in the cards for you. I run 3 power amps.....two stereo and a three channel all Parasound. Do you have a budget?

He said $1500 ... At that budget an integrated amp and DAC is going to beat a HT setup IMO...

 

You can do it with an integrated without HT Byoass but it's a bit of a pain IME.

 

My goto amp at that price range at the moment would be Creek Evo 50 which (iirc) has HT bypass, start off using that with your current DAC. Of course other amps are available and a good dealer should offer you some alternatives...

 

Eloise

[mayhem13]

He said $1500 ... At that budget an integrated amp and DAC is going to beat a HT setup IMO...

 

You can do it with an integrated without HT Byoass but it's a bit of a pain IME.

 

My goto amp at that price range at the moment would be Creek Evo 50 which (iirc) has HT bypass, start off using that with your current DAC. Of course other amps are available and a good dealer should offer you some alternatives...

 

Eloise

 

But that's still not going to work for the OP with video audio decoding via HDMI and using his Ushers as left and right plus two channel.

[mayhem13]

Ok, so my suggestion would be an external DAC feeding your Onkyo with analog set to unmolested pass-through so there's no processing of any kind ( direct or whatever Onkyo calls it). Run an additional stereo power amp fed by the Onkyo pre-outs to power just the ushers.

[Audio_ELF]

But that's still not going to work for the OP with video audio decoding via HDMI and using his Ushers as left and right plus two channel.

Exactly... Keep the Onkyo for video and multichannel output. The left and right pre out of the Onkyo feeds into the HT Bypass input of the Creek (or another integrated amp).

 

Separately you take a DAC, probably connected via USB to computer, and connect its line outputs to another input of the Creek.

 

To listen to music select the DAC input; to listen to video source select the HT input.

 

Not quite as simple as everything run through one AV amp; but the integrated is generally much better then a AV amp for music.

 

Eloise

[maelob]

Totally agree with Eloise.

[mayhem13]

Totally agree with Eloise.

 

Such a sweeping unfounded generalization, I can't even formulate a reply.....generally of course.

[crisnee]

Not quite as simple as everything run through one AV amp; but the integrated is generally much better then a AV amp for music.

Eloise

 

Much better. Can I look that up in a reference manual? What exactly does that mean? Sorry Eloise, it's just that you're the 143rd person to say much better, and that's the number where my tolerance for that claim breaks. It's freaking meaningless.

 

I haven't yet heard an amp that sounds much better than the two mid priced AVR's I've owned and I've owned some really good amps. So obviously we have way different meanings for much better. I wonder who's right.

 

Chris

[Audio_ELF]

Much better. Can I look that up in a reference manual? What exactly does that mean? Sorry Eloise, it's just that you're the 143rd person to say much better, and that's the number where my tolerance for that claim breaks. It's freaking meaningless.

 

I haven't yet heard an amp that sounds much better than the two mid priced AVR's I've owned and I've owned some really good amps. So obviously we have way different meanings for much better. I wonder who's right.

 

Chris

Well it all depends on your listening...

 

My two experiences...

A Rotel RA1060 feeding B&W 602s2 speakers and fed by a Arcam CD72 sounded better than the Arcam feeding a Marantz SR5002 powering the same speakers.

 

A Musical Fidelity A1008 (with internal DAC) sounded better powering B&W CDM7NT fed (digitally) from a computer than a Rotel RSP1068 processor + Quad 99 poweramp.

 

Okay so I didn't do a true blind test with either setup so I may be wrong! It may just be I enjoyed the solid look of the amplifiers! And YMMV.

 

You'll also note I currently use an Arcam AVR400 for everything...

 

"Much better" being a term I use for an improvement which is more than worth the cost / convinience. Nothing scientific :-)

 

Eloise

[Allan F]

Such a sweeping unfounded generalization, I can't even formulate a reply.....generally of course.

 

Could you be more specific...not in any particular fashion?

[Blake]

+2 to the above recommendations about: (1) purchasing Jim Smith's Get Better Sound DVD's (it contains outstanding advice on how to go about setting up your system- speaker positioning, etc.), and (2) using your HSU subs (multiple) with your Ushers when listening to music.

 

Subwoofers are not just for bass heavy music, which is a very common misconception among audiophiles. Among other benefits, subs vastly improve the soundstage as well as the sense of the acoustic space in which the music was recorded. Like Mayhem, I could not live without my subs. It is surprising to me how many people are willing to live without the low frequencies. This makes no sense to me.

 

Jim Smith's DVD's have a section devoted to subs and you will see that Jim strongly recommends subwoofers and shows you how to properly integrate them. I would be surprised if anyone has more experience than Jim in setting up listening rooms. Money well spent.

[ecwl]

Mitebbots, while I think others' suggestions are potential ways to improve the sound, I am struck by your comment that your current system works "okay for movies". It does make me wonder if you have either room acoustic issues or an incorrect Audyssey setup or both. Did you manually adjust the settings after Audyssey auto setup? What are the current settings? Did you manually change the subwoofer volume level? Which listening mode do you use for stereo music? Why do you need to turn off the subwoofer at night to listen to music if you're listening at low volumes anyway?

[Dav9]

Also in full agreement that experimenting to optimize spk placement/AVreceiver setup/room acoustics should be a primary initial focus. Jim Smith's work, what little i read awhile back, was very good and helpful. For example, I found myself in my room, that his finding that an optimum spk setup was with L/R fronts separated by a distance of about 0.82 that of the distance between L/R's and the listening seat.......based on what he considered optimum of course.....but he came to this conclusion from thousands of set ups, in all types of rooms with a huge variety of equipment and spks. A worthwhile, generalized starting point for experimentation.

 

Also worth trying out is placing, if possible, your listening seat at around 0.38 from the back wall of the long wall unit length, to provide the most even bass as as a compromise of the long wall room 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th room nodes SPLs. So for a room 10 feet long, the listening position would be 10 x 0.38 = 3.8 feet = 45.6 inches from the back wall. Avoidance of large bass peaks and nulls permits any additional EQ to be quite effective.

 

Again, a variety of room shapes can alter these rectangular room setup starting points. Works to within inches in my rectangular L shaped room sitting in the end of the long part of the L. Experiments that are essentially free to try out and modify for your particular space.

 

Having installed and setup hundreds of home theatres, i find their sound for music is usually challenged because of 1. spk placement ......the owners desire to put spks inside cabinets......don't get me started on that....general spk placement too wide/high/close to front wall, etc.. 2.using an AV receiver for sound reproduction. 3.an inexpensive hdmi bluray/dvd player for a source. Although some of the newer AV receivers with well developed spk and room correction EQ are quite awesome in taming the bass, the multipurpose design of AV receivers with their higher levels of EMI and RFI and design compromises leaves them, in my experience, lacking in the emotional analog liquidity of a dedicated 2 channel system. I noticed a disappointing lifelessness appear when transitioning from even my budget 2ch separates to a good sounding.....for an AV receiver.....Anthem. Mind you Anthem does digitize all incoming analog inputs so that probably had an effect. As a side note to how sensitive analog signals can be disrupted, I was once dumbfounded when my 3D soundstage completely collapsed to 2d. Back tracking my actions, turned out it was from pushing my equipment rack back closer to the wall......only a few inches.....which brought the folded pwr cord of my pwr bar too close to the back of the Pioneer Elite receiver I was using as a pre amp at the time. That's all it took.

 

Hence, I also suggest considering a 2ch integrated or inexpensive pre/power amps that allow HT bypass. If you are open to buying used from Agon or elsewhere your budget will go farther. Any day now i should receive the Rogue Audio Sphinx integrated that I had them add a HT bypass to. I was leaning a bit to buying a used 2ch Rogue Audio Perseus ht bypass tube pre and then the rather intriguing Job 225 power amp, but decided on a more simple and economical approach right now.

 

Mitebbots, is there any way you can also try out a better quality source in your system. Such as borrowing your Cary Audio friends' cd player or source. I am not familiar with parts in your multimedia HTPC but i suspect that is also a considerable bottleneck to the good SQ you desire. Have a look at one of the basic CAPS v3 designs.......something with hdmi out. A kit build or even a prebuilt one with an economical case along with a used ht bypass integrated could fit in your budget.

 

cheers, David