sacd_extract DSF output problem

[couchjr]

Ted, thanks for your very helpful response. I did extract some stereo DSF files directly from the ISOs. I heard clicks at cue points. (I'm using an Oppo 105 for the USB dac). They aren't loud, but if I'm going to the considerable labor of archiving and cataloguing ~3000 classical SACDs, I want clean data that won't click regardless of what hardware/software I'm playing back on in a few years.

 

I'd love to use JRiver to do the conversion from DFF to DSF but run into two roadblocks (I'm fairly new to JRiver so pointers are welcome). First, I'm using JRMC for Mac 19.0.1. Under Advanced Tools -> Convert Format the only options I see for "Convert files to" are MP3 Encoder, ALAC, Uncompressed Wave, FLAC Encoder, and AIFF Encoder. No DSD. Second, JRMC for Mac doesn't seem to let me select folders/files to convert unless they are in a Library, and JRMC for Mac seems not to let me import a batch of albums by multiple pick. I either have to do them one at a time, or use auto-import, which seems to dump all the files in one folder, so that all the track 01s, track 02s, etc. get intermixed, which is useless to me. So even if the format conversion tool offered me a DSD option, I'd still have to do them one album at a time, unless I'm missing some way to select several albums at a time without commingling them.

 

You will recall, though other posters won't know, that a colleague has extracted the multi-channel DSFs from the same ISOs and a second colleague has done extensive tagging of these using JRMC for Windows including some custom fields, and exported an mpl file containing all this metadata. So my process is to import clean stereo DSF files into JRMC using this mpl file (edited to convert drive names and path slashes from Win to Mac format), and use "Update tags from library" followed by "Update library from tags" to transfer the metadata to the stereo DSFs. This saves having to copy and paste individual track tags except where there are occasional typos or other errors in the tags or filenames I receive. This method is working fine; it's just that the need to go through the Audiogate conversion step, the need to repair stripped commas, and the inability to batch process the conversion (Audiogate doesn't maintain album folders the way SACD_extract does, so again albums get scrambled) mean that the process is excruciatingly slow.

 

I did *not* know about the Sonore extraction app. The site credits Mr. Wicked, saying it's "based on" his program. Do you know whether he's fixed the click bug in his adapted version, or link to reports/analysis? If so, and if as you say it allows multipick of ISOs to do batch processing and the output DSF retains the same folder name as in SACD_extract, then it will save me days if not weeks of work. I could then extract each ISO directly to a clean DSF, have all the DSF folders (albums) land in the same directory as in the mpl path, and import tens or hundreds of albums at a time via the MPL. Then I'd only have to troubleshoot and correct any typos or other errors that showed up when updating the tags in JRMC.

 

Thanks in advance for pointing me to this, and for your other generous help. I'm tempted to try the Sonore program now, when I've only extracted ~150 ISOs and finished the conversion, cleanup, and metadata transfer for 43 albums.

 

Edit: I forgot to answer your question. Here's a representative filename for a track from Mozart's Figaro:

 

15 - Concerto Köln Jacobs - Recitativo - Il Conte, Susanna, Cherubino, Basilio.dsf

 

And one from Bach:

 

12 - Dunedin Consort - Johannes Passion, BWV 245 - Part Two - Chorus Weg, weg mit.dsf

 

Opera arias, chorales, works with catalog numbers (BWV for Bach, Köchel for Mozart, etc.), all frequently contain commas in track filenames.

[InfernoSTi]

Oh...an I assume you've heard about Jesus's new extraction GUI app he made (and is free from his site)?

SONORE ISO2DSD

 

Hi Ted,

 

Thanks for your continued support of DSD…I'm still enjoying my SACD PS3 extractor and CAPS V2+ thanks to you!

 

Off Topic (ignore if a problem): I can't get the Mac version to work…my Mac Terminal program is still running well. Any suggestions?

 

Best,

John

[couchjr]

I just downloaded the Sonore app as well, and followed the directions. I installed JRE 2013-005 (Java 6) for my OS X.7.5 Lion (should upgrade one of these days). My MBP is a 64-bit machine as required. When I select three ISO files in the input window, choose "Dual" in Channel Mode and Sony DSF for Output Mode, and click "Execute," nothing seems to happen. There's no mechanism for choosing the directory to save extracted folders & files to (perhaps that's supposed to be part of the execution sequence that's not happening).

 

In the folder from Sonore there are three files, the iso2dsd_gui.jar, sacd_extract, and version.txt. Do we know if the sacd_extract has been modifed from Mr. Wicked's version to correct the clicks, or is this iso2dsd_gui.jar app merely a GUI for the same extraction software? A GUI is nice, but if the output is not clean, it doesn't add enough value for me. If the Mac version can be made to work and output clickless files, I'd gladly make a donation to Sonore.

[InfernoSTi]

That is pretty much exactly what I did/results I had…at least it wasn't just me, perhaps.

 

John

[vortecjr]

I don't think the SACD-Ripper app is to blame for the noise you here. It seems to me the noise is the result of added metadata after the fact. Specifically, the addition of cover art. The Mac version of ISO2DSD was built a few days ago from source. What happens if you press the Help button? If the title has any apostrophes remove them and then try conversion.

 

Jesus R

[Boris75]

I don't think the SACD-Ripper app is to blame for the noise you here. It seems to me the noise is the result of added metadata after the fact. Specifically, the addition of cover art.

 

Thanks, this is very interesting. At the same time, it seems to me that there is something wrong with the DSF format (or with the software I used to tag DSF files i.e. JRiver for Mac) if the music can click just from adding cover art.

[Miska]

Thanks, this is very interesting. At the same time, it seems to me that there is something wrong with the DSF format (or with the software I used to tag DSF files i.e. JRiver for Mac) if the music can click just from adding cover art.

 

Metadata in DSF is separate from the audio data and located at the end of the file. It shouldn't cause any audible effects, unless there's a bug either in tagging or playback software...

[couchjr]

I don't think the SACD-Ripper app is to blame for the noise you here. It seems to me the noise is the result of added metadata after the fact. Specifically, the addition of cover art. The Mac version of ISO2DSD was built a few days ago from source. What happens if you press the Help button? If the title has any apostrophes remove them and then try conversion.

 

Jesus R

See Miska's post numbers 5 and 32; I compared playback of the DFF and DSF extracts from the same ISOs before I added any tagging; if cover art metadata were responsible for the clicks it would have to have been embedded in the ISO. I didn't check the files I tested for this, but many of the ISOs I extract have no embedded cover art; I have to add it.

 

When I click "Help" a tiny window pops up, when I drag to expand it, it is empty. When I click in it or try to type in it nothing happens.

[vortecjr]

When I click "Help" a tiny window pops up, when I drag to expand it, it is empty. When I click in it or try to type in it nothing happens.

 

Use the Mac Terminal APP to get to the directory with the sacd_extract file and run this command:

 

chmod a+x sacd_extract

 

Jesus R

[ted_b]

So I took one of my unextracted ISOs (Paavo Jarvi Beethoven 3/8), imported the ISO into JRiver (I use Windows) and saw that the tags weren't bad at all, and had commas, etc. I then extracted into DFF using Jesus's GUI (same v37 extract as Mr Wicked, no difference, sorry) and although the tags were poor (like artist, album and track name all in the name field) its nothing a simple rule-based "fill properties from filename" doesn't fix. But, regardless, I went on to convert DFF to DSF (via JRIver) and then did an album-based (meaning one time; highlight entire album) tag paste from the ISO tags and all commas, etc were there. The process would be even easier if, as you say, you already have the tags well established from a multichannel source. No need for mlp's or anything, just a simple tag paste (which is a cntrl-c for copy and a cntrl-shift-v for tag paste). It's also in the pulldowns.

[couchjr]

Thanks, Ted. I could benefit from some of the steps you itemize (though my reference tags are only in the mpl file, since this was designed to be a batch process--we've added/corrected many compared to what comes in the ISO).

 

I tried importing a single-album DFF (I've already extracted all the DFFs in the first batch of albums) into an empty JRMC library, to see if I could convert it to DSF in JRMC as you indicate. If that had worked, and if JRMC did not strip the commas during the conversion, I'd be ecstatic. Unfortunately, as I discovered and reported before, DSD is not offered on my menu of "convert to" choices on the Mac under the "Convert format" command

 

I also don't seem to be able to use the "Paste tags" command in the Mac version. It stays grayed out whether I select one track or all from an album in the file pane, or the album itself in the albums pane, or whether I select the text of a tag in Action Window -> Tag. I think it must not be implemented yet in the Mac version.

 

Ideally, if I could extract a clean DSF directly from sacd_extract, I could import a whole batch of albums into JRMC at once via Import mpl, update the file tags from library and vice versa, and I'd be done except for cleanup of any errors.

 

Meanwhile, if JRMC gets the two functions you mention working in the Mac version, it would probably save me a lot of time compared to what I'm doing now. Thanks for outlining your process; I'll keep an eye out for JRMC to implement one or both.

[couchjr]

Use the Mac Terminal APP to get to the directory with the sacd_extract file and run this command:

 

chmod a+x sacd_extract

 

Jesus R

 

This fixed the problem. The help screen populates and the GUI app seems to be working to extract a file; output is as expected from the command-line version of sacd_extract.

 

Nice work! Adds some convenience. Now if we can just get Mr. Wicked (or someone who can hack his code) to fix the truncated dsf tails bug in sacd_extract, we'll have an efficient set of tools.

 

(If I refer people to your web site to download the Mac version, do I need to send them this unix expression too, or is it something you'll incorporate in your latest update?)

[Boris75]

It stays grayed out whether I select one track or all from an album in the file pane, or the album itself in the albums pane, or whether I select the text of a tag in Action Window -> Tag. I think it must not be implemented yet in the Mac version.

 

The JRiver development team said some months ago that they had put this on their to-do list, though not on top of it.

[couchjr]

So I took one of my unextracted ISOs (Paavo Jarvi Beethoven 3/8), imported the ISO into JRiver (I use Windows) and saw that the tags weren't bad at all, and had commas, etc. I then extracted into DFF using Jesus's GUI (same v37 extract as Mr Wicked, no difference, sorry) and although the tags were poor (like artist, album and track name all in the name field) its nothing a simple rule-based "fill properties from filename" doesn't fix. But, regardless, I went on to convert DFF to DSF (via JRIver) and then did an album-based (meaning one time; highlight entire album) tag paste from the ISO tags and all commas, etc were there. The process would be even easier if, as you say, you already have the tags well established from a multichannel source. No need for mlp's or anything, just a simple tag paste (which is a cntrl-c for copy and a cntrl-shift-v for tag paste). It's also in the pulldowns.

 

Ted, just a heads-up: 6233638 over on the JRiver Mac forum posted this:

 

Even if you had the option, I would not recommend this.

 

Media Center's DSD conversions go to PCM first, and then into your desired output format, therefore it's a lossy process.

It's not the same as moving PCM audio from FLAC to ALAC, where it's just moved into a different format and the audio itself is untouched.

 

Someone else there has recommended a DFF -> DSF converter from 2manyrobots, as well as their (paid) Mac tagger called Yate. I'm going to try out the free converter and hope it doesn't strip commas--and maybe even retains folders . . . .

[ted_b]

Thanks. I posted, asking for more detail/proof. With Matt out of the picture for now (thoughts and prayers needed, please) this question may linger. I will do my best to test the files I did (i.e listen seriously ).

[ted_b]

Here's what I posted on JRiver's Windows JRMC 19 forum:

Hi. I am a go-to (not to be confused with expert) person on Computer Audiophile about things like SACD ripping, DSD, etc. It seems some folks' systems exacerbate the tiny clicks between tracks that the current sacd_extract v37 (or below, frankly) "adds" to any SACD ISO extraction when choosing DSF as a format. It doesn't bother me and my system, but it's clearly there on some (not a FLAC vs WAV thing at all; i.e not debatable). And DSF is the favored format mainly due to ID3V2 tagging support. So...there is the Audiogate solution, which says extract to DFF (no clicks) then convert to DSF using Audiogate (and it's bothersome auto-twitter requirements). Once there, we can use any number of solutions for tagging, such as "fill propertiies from filename", paste tagging if one has a redbook or other version of the album, or even a decent paste tag from the ISO (load ISO into MC and paste tag at least the basic fields).

 

Enter MC's recent DSD convert function. Why not just stay in JRiver and use it's DSF conversion to go DFF to DSF. It works! But.....it has been speculated (over on the Mac forum) by user 6233638 that the conversion to DSF requires a step into PCM, then back to DSF (hell, maybe Audiogate does this, but I didn't think so). I have to admit I had not yet seriously listened to any of the test albums I've tried this on (cuz I really didn't care; I don't need to do this step in my daily routine) to determine if the result is any different than Audiogate's. Technically, AG added 3kb to the file size (114,142kb vs 114, 145kb), likely header differences; JRiver had a paltry 4kb more than AG (i.e 7kb), with no changes to what is captured to the convoluted track name tag...i.e seems there is same going on here. But.....when I converted the DFF file to DXD (24/352 wav, a hirez resolving PCM sample rate used in DSD editing in such pro environments as Pyramix 8.0 or below) and then to DSF via JRiver the file size remains the same as the JRiver DFF to DSF. So that opens the door to a possible PCM step.....but maybe AG is doing the same? I could not replicate this on AG cuz it won't accept a sample rate of DXD; I tried downsampling to 24/192k then did DSF on AG and got another 28kb in file size, so this test is somewhat moot.

 

Net/net, is DFF to DSF on JRIver going through DXD first? Seems like it. If so, are the sonics affected? To my ears BOTH DSF conversions lose a percent or two of air compared to the unconverted DFF. I then re-extracted the ISO as DSF and it sounded identical to DFF (and I heard the click on my Mytek-based home office headphones, but it's not there on my Meitner-based big rig). Argh.

 

Maybe the best solution for those click-sensitive systems is to simply use DFF and paste tag from the ISO (temporarily imported via file-open media file) or just listen from the darn ISO.

[jtm]

@ ted and all

 

Do we know which systems/combinations suffer from the clicks ?

 

Like Ted mentiond, Mytek yes, Meitner no.

 

My Teac UD-501 in combination with Audirvana 1.5.10 also NO !

 

Can others leave a short reply so that we might be able to aggregate an overview ?

 

I think that could possibly be a hint for Mr. Wicked on a potential bug fix in next version of sacd_extract

.

[couchjr]

Thanks, Ted.

 

I have good news. Someone over on the JRMC 19 Mac forum pointed me to a new Mac utility from 2manyrobots called dff2dsf. It doesn't strip commas, and in the version I first tried, it saves output in the same folder as each dff source album--that is, it doesn't intermingle output files from different albums. It's free and it doesn't require a mandatory tweet. Right there, those are three major improvements over Audiogate. It explicitly says it does not re-encode the DSD audio, just repackages it.

 

So I posted a feature request to allow the user to specify an output directory and send converted DSF files to duplicates of the album folders containing the dff source files. This would allow unattended batch conversion of dozens or hundreds of albums at a time, saved if desired to a different drive so that huge files would not have to be moved later.

 

Well. I got an email back in an hour from Barry, the developer, that my request shouldn't be hard to implement, and another hour later had a test build that I'm now using that does exactly what I requested, with the elegant twist that it's a selectable option in preferences.

 

(Jesús, that would be a useful option for your sacd_extract GUI too.)

 

In a single stroke, this has solved every technical problem I had, except the need to go through DFF at all due to the bug in sacd_extract. With this batch conversion retaining the original folder and file names, I can now import dozens or hundreds of albums into JRMC in DSF format via a single mpl, and transfer the tags for all of them at once from the mpl via a single "update tags from library" and "update library from tags" sequence.

 

I highly recommend this conversion utility, and want to publicly thank and congratulate Barry for a beautiful implementation.

 

Check it out, everyone!

[EdmontonCanuck]

@couchjr

 

I'd be very interested in getting that updated Mac utility. Do you know if the version available on his site is the updated version yet?

[couchjr]

@couchjr

 

I'd be very interested in getting that updated Mac utility. Do you know if the version available on his site is the updated version yet?

 

Not sure. But it's a small app. Download it, and click the "Preferences" menu, upper left. If you see a checkbox for something like "Prompt for output directory" or words to that effect, it's the new build. There are only like three preferences, so you can't miss it. There's an email address under "support" so if you don't see it, write Barry and ask him for the new build, or for an ETA on inclusion in the public version.

[Boris75]

Can others leave a short reply so that we might be able to aggregate an overview ?

 

My Benchmark DAC2 D clicks on DSF files and does not click on DFF files.

[One and a half]

Windows 7 : JRMC + PD MPD-3 or PHA-2, No clicks

OSX : A+ and Sony PHA-2 No clicks

 

Only extract DSF.

[Synfreak]

I only have extracted a very small part of my SACD ISOs so far, and mostly for testing purposes.

 

The clicks/noises I have encountered are not evident on all albums or even inconsistant between different tracks on the same album.

And they aren't equal easy to spot when listened to with speakers vs. headphones.

 

So far i can say:

 

SACD ISOs extracted with sacd_extract (0.3.7)

 

Windows 7 (or 8.1) 64Bit --> Foobar 2000 V. 1.3.1 --> ASIO native DSD streaming --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC

 

with *.dsf files: there are some clicks to be heard (in transition regions between tracks)

with *.dff files: way less clicks, but on some tracks I even get some "transition noise" (very faint clicks/ticks)

 

As I am using Foobar as player software, I will stay with DSDIFF files, as Foobar does handle tagging those too.

But there will be more testing necessary for sure ...

[couchjr]

If Miska's analysis of the nature and number of truncated frames in the DSD file tails is correct, it makes sense that the audible result would vary from track to track; sometimes little or no sound and sometimes different sounds.

[thm655321]

I am trying to use Korg Audiogate to convert dff to dsf using dff files I extracted using the Jesus gui. Each iso is converted to dff into its own folder. Audiogate will load some of the dff file folders but not others. In fact most of the folders will not load only the occasional one. This is true whether I try to add the files as a folder or individually. I cannot understand why it is doing this and of course there is no user support for the free version.

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.