Any evidence wire is less than fully transparent at audio frequencies?

[esldude]

Looking for evidence that wires lack transparency when used for audio.

 

Not looking for anecdotes or sighted listening impressions.

 

It seems for the great majority of uses in home audio interconnect causes no problems that are audible excepting equipment with very strange interfaces. Seems to be no reason that one USB cable would sound different from another if both pass the digital info intact.

 

If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to know what it is.

 

There is evidence speaker cables might differ audibly with some speaker loads, though it all seems down to ordinary LCR effects.

[AudioDoctor]

I'll get the popcorn started...

 

edit: Do we really need to do this again?

[Boris75]

 

There is evidence speaker cables might differ audibly with some speaker loads, though it all seems down to ordinary LCR effects.

 

My apologies for what might be a dumb question: what are LCR effects? An admittedly quick Google search failed to educate me.

[Boris75]

edit: Do we really need to do this again?

 

Yes, I think this is part of our social life in this forum, a bit like discussing housing prices over dinner in London.

[esldude]

My apologies for what might be a dumb question: what are LCR effects? An admittedly quick Google search failed to educate me.

 

Sorry, should have made it clear on the LCR. L is used for inductance, C for capacitance and R for resistance in most electronic circuit calculations. So nothing other than regular old inductance, capacitance and resistance is needed to characterize what the resulting signal will be.

[gmgraves]

Looking for evidence that wires lack transparency when used for audio.

 

Not looking for anecdotes or sighted listening impressions.

 

It seems for the great majority of uses in home audio interconnect causes no problems that are audible excepting equipment with very strange interfaces. Seems to be no reason that one USB cable would sound different from another if both pass the digital info intact.

 

If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to know what it is.

 

There is evidence speaker cables might differ audibly with some speaker loads, though it all seems down to ordinary LCR effects.

 

You won't find any evidence, because none exists. The maths say that the effects of coaxial cable on the audio spectrum in the lengths commonly used in domestic audio systems amounts to mere fractions of a dB at 20 KHz, and even less at lower frequencies. DBTs always show that two cables which the owner insists are wildly different sounding in sighted tests become indistinguishable from one another when the owner doesn't know which one he is listening to. All differences in cables are anecdotal and imaginary.

[christopher3393]

Looking for evidence that wires lack transparency when used for audio.

 

Not looking for anecdotes or sighted listening impressions.

 

It seems for the great majority of uses in home audio interconnect causes no problems that are audible excepting equipment with very strange interfaces. Seems to be no reason that one USB cable would sound different from another if both pass the digital info intact.

 

If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to know what it is.

 

There is evidence speaker cables might differ audibly with some speaker loads, though it all seems down to ordinary LCR effects.

 

Could you define more precisely what you mean by "evidence", what counts as evidence and why and what does not count as evidence and why not?

[christopher3393]

You won't find any evidence, because none exists. The maths say that the effects of coaxial cable on the audio spectrum in the lengths commonly used in domestic audio systems amounts to mere fractions of a dB at 20 KHz, and even less at lower frequencies. DBTs always show that two cables which the owner insists are wildly different sounding in sighted tests become indistinguishable from one another when the owner doesn't know which one he is listening to. All differences in cables are anecdotal and imaginary.

 

Are you assuming that all anecdotal evidence is false or that it simply doesn't qualify as "evidence" on your terms, which I think need to be defined rather than presupposed. Otherwise this thread appears as "asked and answered".

[esldude]

Could you define more precisely what you mean by "evidence", what counts as evidence and why and what does not count as evidence and why not?

 

I ask anecdotes and sighted impression be left out because we know where that leads, and it gets us nowhere other than familiar bickering.

 

Evidence would be reasonable measurements that explain how one cable will alter the signal in a likely to be audible way. Or blind testing where differences were shown to be true. Or even good reasonable conjecture about how it could occur. Though I am not talking about measuring a cable's response in the megahertz range, finding them different and using that to explain how they sound different (common tactic among cable ad copy).

 

So evidence is rational objective material which shows how cable could alter the signal it is carrying audibly.

 

And yes, actually I do consider it asked as answered unless someone can point to heretofore unknown (to me at least) information. So no this isn't trolling it is looking for someone with more knowledge than I have (which isn't tough to do) which can explain how wire carrying audio signals could sound genuinely different.

 

Not all anecdotal evidence is false, it just doesn't rise to the level of credulity I prefer. If the anecdotal evidence is true, there is an explanation for it which can in principle be found. But at this point anecdotes require further investigation with some explanation before I would accept it. And once you have the explanation, you don't need the anecdotes any longer.

[Allan F]

Yes, I think this is part of our social life in this forum, a bit like discussing housing prices over dinner in London.

 

Oh, that poor dead horse!

[sandyk]

Seems to be no reason that one USB cable would sound different from another if both pass the digital info intact.

 

If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to know what it is.

 

Dennis

You would be well aware of the many 100s of posts in this area , in numerous threads of this forum. You are also undoubtedly aware of the several commercial products specifically designed to overcome measurable artifacts caused by internal SMPS,

EMI and grounding issues with USB Audio. I am surprised that you would even start another thread like this .

My genuine personal advice would be to let this one go, at least in this forum.

A better place to ask such things may be in the forum at the link I provided in the other thread.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[Allan F]

A better place to ask such things may be in the forum at the link I provided in the other thread.

 

Better try creating that link again, Alex.

[thesurfingalien]

Dennis

You would be well aware of the many 100s of posts in this area , in numerous threads of this forum. You are also undoubtedly aware of the several commercial products specifically designed to overcome measurable artifacts caused by internal SMPS,

EMI and grounding issues with USB Audio. I am surprised that you would even start another thread like this .

My genuine personal advice would be to let this one go, at least in this forum.

A better place to ask such things may be in the forum at the link I provided in the other thread.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Hi Alex,

 

What is SMPS??? Maybe well-known here, but I have no clue.

 

Thanks,

Peter

[gmgraves]

My apologies for what might be a dumb question: what are LCR effects? An admittedly quick Google search failed to educate me.

 

LCR = Inductance (L), Capacitance ©, Resistance ®.

[Allan F]

Hi Alex,

 

What is SMPS??? Maybe well-known here, but I have no clue.

 

Thanks,

Peter

 

SMPS = Switched-mode Power Supply

[gmgraves]

Are you assuming that all anecdotal evidence is false or that it simply doesn't qualify as "evidence" on your terms, which I think need to be defined rather than presupposed. Otherwise this thread appears as "asked and answered".

 

Anecdotal evidence of things like cable sound is worthless because people are tremendously influenced by a phenomenon called "expectational bias". IOW, what they think they hear is influenced by the suggestive nature of things like what they see ("this cable looks expensive, it must be good"), or their expectations ("this cable had better be an improvement over what I have now, because it certainly cost me enough!"), or what they have heard or read ("Audionuts magazine reviewed these interconnects as the best they've ever heard. I'm really looking forward to them making my system sound better."). Psychoacoustic studies have shown that in scenarios such as this, people actually do hear the profound improvement in the sound of their systems that they were hoping (expecting) to hear. The problem is that when these same people are tested in a double-blind-test, where they don't know whether they are listening to their newest and greatest, or their old cable, those great differences disappear in a puff of smoke and these same listeners cannot differentiate one form the other.

[mayhem13]

.......any minute now.....wait for it......wait........

[Allan F]

Won't someone please replace this broken record.

[sandyk]

Better try creating that link again, Alex.

 

Some Interesting Reading about Digital Audio..

 

With contributions from John Swenson

Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin,Steve Silberman

JPLAY Responds - An open letter.

Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio, and others.

 

Industry Voice | AudioStream

[Daudio]

I ask anecdotes and sighted impression be left out...

 

 

Then shouldn't this thread be on Hydrogen Audio ??

[esldude]

Then shouldn't this thread be on Hydrogen Audio ??

No because HA only accepts dbt results. Not the same.

[sandyk]

No because HA only accepts dbt results. Not the same.

 

Dennis

 

There's still Industry Voice | AudioStream

 

You may even get some of the answers you want from John Swenson,Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin, Steve Silberman , and Steve Nugent. (grin) Perhaps John Swenson now has some CRO screen shots available of noise hitching a ride on top of the USB Audio Binary data ?

Regards

Alex

[RabPaul]

The only way to be convinced is to prove to yourself one way or the other rather than to rely on proof that it makes a difference or does not.

If you look at the audiophile grade USB cords you will see that many of them place emphasis on the material and isolation used for wires that carry the data as well as the how they isolate the wires that carry the power from the wires that carry data. One theory says the power signal (let's not forget EMI/RFI) can corrupt the data signal turning what is supposed to be a zero signal to a one signal and vice-versa.

Now the effect of this if any, will also depend on how capable your system is in resolving these differences again if any. As mentioned by others you may well be hearing things because you want to hear them. The only way to know if these "differences" are real or created in your mind is to actually try a standard USB cable with an "audiophile" grade cable.

Try an inexpensive USB cable say from DH Labs, Audioquest or Cardas and use the standard cable that came with your DAC.

Spend a week playing music you are very familiar with using the new cable and take note of the differences you hear, now repeat with standard cable and look for all the differences you noted earlier. Repeat the whole exercise again and decide which cable is better for you.

If you are served coffee with sugar you would know when there is no sugar. If the cable allows you to listen to more detail you will know when that detail is missing. So no difference at least you have a good quality USB cable which you will never have to replace.

[mav52]

There is no evidence, never has been or never will be that anyone can understand or want to believe, but if you ask those mysterious "wire" salesmen they will tell you "sure there is... How, we don't know we just sell the stuff, but those wires sure look pretty"

[mayhem13]

One theory says the power signal (let's not forget EMI/RFI) can corrupt the data signal turning what is supposed to be a zero signal to a one signal and vice-versa.

Now the effect of this if any, will also depend on how capable your system is in resolving these differences again if any.

 

Wish it were as simple as you suggest.....then we wouldn't need these bit perfect threads at all.....but alas....if a zero becomes a 1 or vice versa, this is cleary audible as a non musical noise or a stutter-stop in the playback.......not the fine musical nuances you speak of, or others suggest as differences being heard yet identical bit streams ( they've been compared by the OP and others and posted here).

 

The 'problem' with Dennis' query is that such evidence doesn't exist.....which DOES NOT negate it's existence, only that's it hasn't been captured as of yet. The 'why' of the lack of evidence puts the topic into a different category than most applied sciences with the likes of documented Alien encounters, physical evidence of the existence of Yeti and so forth. Lots of media and other interests around such topics.......which as of yet hasn't produced a viable spec of proof.