Vinyl to DSD conversion

[PhilipAC]

Hi everyone.

 

Has anyone digitised any of their vinyl to DSD? If so:

 

* What hardware and software did you use?

 

* How did you do the transfer to the computer? As I understand it, there is no USB DoP protocol for transferring DSD in the direction of ADC to computer (or maybe I mean that there is no software to deal with it when it gets there- I'm not sure!). Ayre's QA-9 Pro version uses BNC outputs and SDIF 2/3 protocol- how would I get that output into my MacBook Pro?

 

* What was quality like- in particular, how does it compare with DSD64 or DSD128 downloads?

 

Thanks

[Audio_ELF]

I believe a lot of people have used Tascam and Korg recorders for this. Both have their own transfer protocols.

[PhilipAC]

If I read the Tascam website correctly, they also use BNC/SDIF for DSD output, like Ayre, so my question would still be: how would I get that signal into a computer?

 

And would the result sound any better than (or as good as) a DSD download?

[Audio_ELF]

If I read the Tascam website correctly, they also use BNC/SDIF for DSD output, like Ayre, so my question would still be: how would I get that signal into a computer?

 

And would the result sound any better than (or as good as) a DSD download?

With the Tascam, the file is recorded first to an internal drive, which is then transferred via USB - kind of in the same way as a portable media player, only in reverse.

 

Eloise

[PhilipAC]

Thanks Eloise.

 

Presumably I would also need software to tag it etc, and I have been told that there is no vinyl ripping software that handles DSD. Is that right?

 

Philip

[Audio_ELF]

Presumably I would also need software to tag it etc, and I have been told that there is no vinyl ripping software that handles DSD. Is that right?

Yes. You would have to manually tag it. Also need to manually split it into tracks. I think the required software would be supplied with both devices.

[daneinspain]

I can confirm Korg's dsd-recorders come bundled with Audiogate sotware, which will do basic editing such as splitting tracks, tagging dsf-files, normalizing, and fading in and out if needed. It's extremely intuitive,.once you have a basic understanding of the workflow involved:

1. Record from riaa's output to Korg-recorder. Thus no need for computer for capturing.

2. Hook up Korg-recorder to computer. It shows up as external disc. Copy files to computer's harddrive.

3. Open Audiogate and copied files. Now edit album meta-data. Discogs is your friend. Then split into tracks using track-info from discogs or album sleeves. Export to.dsf with normalized engaged.

4. Wait 10-20 min depending on your album and computer power.

 

I didcomparisons among 5-10 good PCM ADCs, and found Korg's DSD-recorders'.smooth and analogue-like capture unrivalled in quality.

[PhilipAC]

Thanks to Eloise and Daneinspain. I now have a clear idea as to the process.

 

But of course, the killer Q is how good would such digitisations be (assuming say a Korg MR2000s recording in DSD128 and using a pristine LP and very good turntable/arm/cartridge) compared to a typical DSD download or PS3 rip?

 

I would love to hear comments on SQ from anyone who has gone through this process, please.

 

Thanks

[wisnon]

A contact of mine has with a quality vinyl setup (dont know the ADC though) and he says that he and his friends can tell the difference with the ripped DSD128 and the Vinyl playback!

[Hiro]

A contact of mine has with a quality vinyl setup (dont know the ADC though) and he says that he and his friends can tell the difference with the ripped DSD128 and the Vinyl playback!

 

Audiophiles visiting PS Audio's room at RMAF had less luck noticing the difference

 

"What’s been fun is the vinyl played through the NPC (our NuWave Phono Converter) which we’ve been playing for guests visiting the room. I can’t tell you the number of people that have come to me or my son Scott and said “thank you for playing vinyl. I am so relieved to see an all analog room without any digital. It sounds great.” Of course we just smile, play whatever vinyl they wish, take our compliments and before they leave explain that everything they just heard was actually analog through our DAC. That always sparks a great conversation about how that is possible and how we got it to sound so, well …… analog like."

Last days of the show | PS Audio

 

BTW, their NuWave Phono Converter does 5.6MHz DSD.

 

[daneinspain]

A contact of mine has with a quality vinyl setup (dont know the ADC though) and he says that he and his friends can tell the difference with the ripped DSD128 and the Vinyl playback!

There are so many unknowns at stake here. With my Korg mr1, for example, recording using unbalanced cables messes spacial clues up slightly, whereas balanced is completely transperant to me.

[astrotoy]

I process my vinyl rips (at 192/24 with a PM Model 2 and Pyramix and Mykerinos Card) through Izotope RX2 to declick the file - very necessary for older records. My understanding is that one cannot easily edit DSD files, like a simple pass to declick. Am I correct in my understanding? I read that if I had a pro workstation (Sonoma was mentioned I believe) I could process the file. Otherwise, one has to convert the DSD to PCM, edit it, and then go back to DSD - which seems to defeat the purpose.

 

FWIW, I started my major vinyl ripping project 3 years ago, before DSD emerged. I will not go back and redo them in DSD (over 10TB completed, close to 3000 hours of ripping in real time, plus declicking time). Right now I do have a bunch of DSD files from SACD's using a PS3.

 

Thanks, Larry

[Audio_ELF]

You are correct. If you rip in DSD you'll have to convert to PCM to do any form of editing such as declicking

[wisnon]

Audiophiles visiting PS Audio's room at RMAF had less luck noticing the difference

 

"What’s been fun is the vinyl played through the NPC (our NuWave Phono Converter) which we’ve been playing for guests visiting the room. I can’t tell you the number of people that have come to me or my son Scott and said “thank you for playing vinyl. I am so relieved to see an all analog room without any digital. It sounds great.” Of course we just smile, play whatever vinyl they wish, take our compliments and before they leave explain that everything they just heard was actually analog through our DAC. That always sparks a great conversation about how that is possible and how we got it to sound so, well …… analog like."

Last days of the show | PS Audio

 

BTW, their NuWave Phono Converter does 5.6MHz DSD.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8584[/ATTACH]

 

It was a typo…I meant CANNOT tell...

[kennyb123]

But of course, the killer Q is how good would such digitisations be (assuming say a Korg MR2000s recording in DSD128 and using a pristine LP and very good turntable/arm/cartridge) compared to a typical DSD download or PS3 rip?

 

I recorded about a dozen LPs while borrowing a friend's MR2000. At the time, vinyl had a significant lead over digital. This was reflected in the recordings made with the MR2000 as well.

 

A great example is Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage". Direct playback of the 45 RPM vinyl was clearly superior to rips from the SACD (both from the same Analogue Productions series). The rips made from vinyl with the Korg were also superior to the SACD rip.

 

Here's my original post on my experience using the Korg: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/korg-mr-2000s-13740/

 

Much has changed in my system since then and both analog and digital have improved considerably. My recordings with the Korg no longer come very close to the sound of direct vinyl playback as I've upgraded to a much better phono stage. I intend to re-record them once I eventually get my own Korg (or Tascam). But that won't happen until analog stabilizes a bit more, as a few more upgrades are still planned.

[daneinspain]

It was a typo…I meant CANNOT tell...

I actually reread your post a couple of times, as I somehow thought this was the point you were going to make. FWIW, in my case, standard DSD rate does the trick...

[PhilipAC]

I rang the Korg UK office today, and was told that the MR2000s was no longer available and that Korg no longer did any recording equipment! She could have been referring to UK only, but I got the impression not- why would Korg stop supplies to the UK but not elsewhere?

 

And on their website I can only find reference to the portable MR2.

 

Is anyone able to confirm this, or tell me I've got the wrong end of the stick?

 

If true, the new Tascam DA3000 seems the obvious choice.

 

Philip

[daneinspain]

 

FWIW, I started my major vinyl ripping project 3 years ago, before DSD emerged. I will not go back and redo them in DSD (over 10TB completed, close to 3000 hours of ripping in real time, plus declicking time). Right now I do have a bunch of DSD files from SACD's using a PS3.

 

Thanks, Larry

 

Larry, look I think declicking is fine, but for me hearing tdhe occasional pop and click from my TT has never marred my listening. Personally

, I'd be opening up a can of worms getting caught up in removing imperfectons just because I could!

 

I wanted to archive my 300-album vinyl collection to cut down on wear and tear, both in the grooves and needle. I first read about a DSD-capable Tascam in John Marks' Stereophile-column maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Didn't think more about it until I leant about the DSD-Disc standard on ps3sacd.com a year later. I reckoned I was going to nurn my recordings on disc and get a Sony SACD-player, but then word came out about the Mytek DSD-DAC.

 

Add to this, the convenience of browsing your library from your sofa...

[PhilipAC]

Call me naive if you wish…….

 

Yesterday I visited a pal who has a first rate deck and rest of system, and a pretty big LP collection. So we sat down and had a brief listening session. I was very surprised that about half the LPs sounded really good, and the other half sounded decidedly poor. I was expecting the number of poor recordings to be much lower. It made me realise that digitising newly-purchased 2nd-hand LPs (which is/was my plan) would be all very well- but how do I make sure I don't purchase turkeys?

 

I think my proposed project is more of a minefield that I realised!

[kennyb123]

It made me realise that digitising newly-purchased 2nd-hand LPs (which is/was my plan) would be all very well- but how do I make sure I don't purchase turkeys?

 

There are some rules of thumb that can help one minimize this. For example, original pressings tend to sound best. But these can also be the most costly. Also there are some labels that tend to sound better than others. There are many labels I have just learned to avoid.

 

When I first started collecting vinyl, I spent a lot of time pouring through boxes of $1 records. Certainly I came up with many turkeys, but these were far outnumbered by the good ones. For the good ones, sometimes I've found it was still worth spending more to seek out better pressings in better condition.

 

No easy answer here. I've been at this for a while, and I still end up with turkeys. Same is true of course about buying from high res tracks from HDTracks.

[rbnjr]

I have just started my collection of vinyl and enjoy hearing from the community about adventures trying for better sound quality.

I do plan to get the tascam da-3000 and play in my car and on the phone. all good experiences.

 

cheers!

 

 

[h=2][/h]

[StephenJK]

Thanks to Eloise and Daneinspain. I now have a clear idea as to the process.

 

But of course, the killer Q is how good would such digitisations be (assuming say a Korg MR2000s recording in DSD128 and using a pristine LP and very good turntable/arm/cartridge) compared to a typical DSD download or PS3 rip?

 

I would love to hear comments on SQ from anyone who has gone through this process, please.

 

Thanks

 

I record to a modified Korg MR-2000S (modified to replace 80GB drive with 320GB). The inputs are connected to the tape loop of my preamp. I play records with a Clearaudio Ovation turntable fitted with the Universal tonearm. I'm running with a Dynavector Te Kaitora cartridge into an Audio Research PH5 phono preamp to an Audio Research LS-25 preamp.

 

As others have mentioned, the MR-2000S or MR-2000SBK are no longer manufactured but I do still see new or used items on eBay. I don't think with a digital device you would have any issues buying a used unit.

 

I record at the highest possible resolution, 1 bit/5.66 MHz. Note that the Korg recorder will create a folder for each recording and will nest into that folder multiple DFF files that are no longer than 1GB each. An average length LP will be just under 3GB total. A project PRJ file is added to each folder that will tell the AudioGate software what it needs to know for playback.

 

You can play the DSD files directly from AudioGate, or convert them to another format. If you want to keep them in DSD you can add track breaks by pushing a button on the recorder to mark the location while recording. I have never done that, and can't imagine anyone else doing that either, at least not for recording LP's.

 

I use AudioGate to convert the DSD files into a single full length file for each album at 24/96 FLAC. That I can bring into VinylStudio for breaking out tracks, adding album art and running a simple crackle filter. There is also a rumble and hiss filter, but those are intended for motor noise and tape noise respectively.

 

As far as sound quality goes, with either the original DSD folder/files or with the final 24/96 individual tracks I can't tell the difference between the digital and LP versions.

 

As others have mentioned, many LP's don't sound very good, but you do want your digital copy to be essentially a mirror of the LP sound - whatever that may be.

 

I do keep the raw, untouched DSD files. I could play these back through JRiver that will do a conversion on the fly, but have never done that. I'm simply reluctant to delete something that took me some time and effort to record.

 

As far as comparison to any DSD download file is concerned, I'm unable to comment as I've never done that. My intent was to digitize close to 1,500 LP's so that I could play them back from a music server.

 

I hope that answers your questions. If not, let us know.