How to avoid timing and clipping errors when recording Vinyl to high resolution digital

[Zephilim]

I am currently recording my vinyl collection into high resolution Flac files currently using Adobe Audition but looking to buy Vinyl Studio if it can do all I need it to, which on first appearance looks like it can. However, I am looking for advice. My current setup is Technics SL 1210 MKII, Pioneer DJM-500 mixer, Mac Book Pro running windows 7. With this setup, I have discovered 2 major problems which means that the Vinyl I have recorded so far, will have to be discarded and I'll need to start over. The problems are:

 

1) Quite a lot of the recordings I have made are suffering scratchy type noises. At first I thought that it was because of a worn stylus, but when I listened to the audio from the source (IE headphones plugged into the mixer, the audio was flawless). So the these flaws were as a result of the analogue to digital conversion happening within the sound card of the Mac. I think this is what is called 'Clipping' but I am not sure.

 

2) I am finding that there are a lot of timing errors in the recorded audio. IE when you play back the audio, there can sometimes be a lot of micro jumps, almost like slight skipping as though small fractions of the audio were not recorded properly and thus are not in the resultant audio. I have tested on different devices and this happens consistently so I know its a problem with the recording itself rather than the playback.

 

Now for both of these issues, I think that the problem is caused by the limited capability of the sound card in the Mac and I am guessing that I may be able to resolve both of these issues by using an offboard USB device (IE like an external soundcard). There are 3 products that I am thinking of purchasing:

 

a) Propellaheads Balance USB Audio interface

b) Tascam US-366

c) Apogee Duet

 

I would like your expert opinion as to whether you think one of these type of devices will help in resolving the issues I have documented.

 

Looking forward to hearing your views,

 

thanks.

[baddog]

Ok I am not an expert, so take my thoughts for what they are worth. That being said I am using Vinyl Studio on my Mac.

 

I use it with a Macbook Pro that has a SSD drive, 16 gigs of memory and 2.6 Gz Intel Core i7. I am using an Apogee Duet to perform the Analog to Digital conversion. I use it with a Garrard turntable that goes through my pre amp (using the phono inputs). The pre amp in turn is connected to the Apogee Duet which is connected via Firewire to my Macbook.

 

One does have to adjust the volume on the pre amp based on the record being recorded as the levels vary based on recording. I record at 24/96. I do leverage the meters in Vinyl Studio to ensure I am not clipping the inputs.

 

Overall I am happy withe Vinyl Studio. It is a happy medium between performance, features and cost. It does take some time to properly split the tracks after recording a side (or two sides) of an album. However the sound quality is very good, no issues with timing delays, skips or the like, and no distortion as long as I ensure I am not clipping the inputs.

 

I know others have used devices such as the TC Electronic Impact Twin as the A/D convertor with success.

 

I am sure others will weigh in as well who have greater experience.

[Audio_ELF]

Take a read of Computer Audiophile - Guide to Converting Analog Vinyl To Digital Files Using Windows and/or Computer Audiophile - Guide to Converting Analog Vinyl to Digital Files Using Macintosh

[Zephilim]

Take a read of Computer Audiophile - Guide to Converting Analog Vinyl To Digital Files Using Windows and/or Computer Audiophile - Guide to Converting Analog Vinyl to Digital Files Using Macintosh

 

Nice looking guides, thanks for that.

[Zephilim]

Thanks bplexico. This is the kind of info I was looking for; other peoples experiences of doing the conversion and their setups. Its is encouraging that you're using a Duet (I'm sure the other devices I mentioned will probably work too) and not experiencing the issues that I have. I do adjust the eq/output settings on my mixer meticulously so that that distortions do not occur and so this isn't actually an issue. A lot of the music I am recording is progressive house and trance which I intend to do DJ mixing with, so it is essential that there are no timing errors at all. I am going to read the guides referred to by Audio_ELF and hopefully I can pick up some more useful tips.

[wgb113]

I'm using Audacity with no issues. Perhaps you could give it a shot since it's free?

 

Bill

[burnspbesq]

Both of those are (I think) Core Audio issues, because I got them regardless of which software I used and they disappeared never to return when I got my Lynx Hilo. My theory is that the little skips are the result of allocating processor time to other applications and processes, so shut as much other stuff down as you can while ripping.

 

The little skips can be mostly fixed using the Truncate Silence effect in Audacity.

[Zephilim]

Both of those are (I think) Core Audio issues, because I got them regardless of which software I used and they disappeared never to return when I got my Lynx Hilo. My theory is that the little skips are the result of allocating processor time to other applications and processes, so shut as much other stuff down as you can while ripping.

 

The little skips can be mostly fixed using the Truncate Silence effect in Audacity.

 

Well, that is a nice bit of kit, probably a bit more than I was looking to spend, something within the hundreds of pound range, not thousands! I am becoming convinced however, that an additional bit of external hardware will resolve my issues. Thanks. Oh and I forgot to mention that I'm using Windows 7 bootcamp on my Mac (OSX Snow Leopard has become dog slow), so core audio is not an element in my recording setup.

[bdiament]

Hi yebbi,

 

One thing that will help avoid clipping and more importantly, improve the needledrops overall, is something I discovered over the years in my day-to-day work:

 

Every monolithic A-D converter in my experience will exhibit less distortion at -6 (or lower) than it will at -1. In English, this means that initial conversion to digital, which is what a needledrop is, should have the level adjusted so that the loudest peak in the music does not exceed -6 dBFS on the meters. Final levels should be adjusted digitally.

(This assumes recording to a 24-bit file. Recording to 16-bits puts a quality ceiling on the result as soon as it is digitized.)

 

With 24-bits, I'd worry less if the maximum peak during that initial digitizing is at -20 than I would if it was at -2. When the final level is adjusted, in the digital domain, once the recording is done, the -20 version will provide a cleaner result than the -2 version. Of course, with live recording from microphones, one never knows how loud the maximum peak is going to be, so I leave lots of headroom, with no worries. When preparing to do a needledrop, one can always play the record and let the software provide a level reading, so you know exactly where the maximum level peak(s) occur(s) and how loud it is. The next time you play the record (perhaps after letting it "rest"), you know exactly how to set the level.

 

All this of course assumes there *is* a record level control. Some software does not provide this. I would use such software as often as I'd use a car without a steering wheel. ;-}

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[SoNic67]

The internal ADC in Mac Book Pro is not appropriate for any quality recordings. You need to use an external sound card that has a good ADC, something like E-MU 0204 USB (it has as A/D converter AK5385) or E-MU 0404.

[harrypt]

I've read more of these threads than I can count, and forums on all these computer based A/D boxes are filled with people having problems.

 

Running through the active volume of a preamp, through these boxes, through the cheap sound card of a computer... at best it is mediocre sound quality, at worst it is often these kind of problems.

 

Why not just spend the money on a dedicated recorder i.e. Alesis Masterlink, Korg, Tascam 1000/1000HD/3000 etc. There are many with varying features and price points. Run your phono pre direct into a recorder or tape out of the preamp bypassing the active circuits. Sounds better, works better.

[wgb113]

I've read more of these threads than I can count, and forums on all these computer based A/D boxes are filled with people having problems.

 

Running through the active volume of a preamp, through these boxes, through the cheap sound card of a computer... at best it is mediocre sound quality, at worst it is often these kind of problems.

 

Why not just spend the money on a dedicated recorder i.e. Alesis Masterlink, Korg, Tascam 1000/1000HD/3000 etc. There are many with varying features and price points. Run your phono pre direct into a recorder or tape out of the preamp bypassing the active circuits. Sounds better, works better.

 

I'm having zero issues and the sound quality is better than mediocre IMO.

 

Bill

[russtafarian]

Why not just spend the money on a dedicated recorder

 

I agree. I connect the output of my phono preamp to a $150 Tascam DR-07 portable 24/96 recorder. I follow Barry's critical advice for setting recording levels. I dump the recorded PCM files into Audacity for normalization, track cutting and editing. Save them as FLAC files and tag them with metadata. I get excellent results. The noise floor of the turntable is a bigger limiting factor than the recorder.

 

A better recorder and more advanced software will no doubt get better results. But my vinyl rips are primarily rock recordings that will never make it to hi-rez digital. I doubt I'll see Devo - Duty Now For The Future on HD Tracks any time soon.

 

Russ

[Zephilim]

The internal ADC in Mac Book Pro is not appropriate for any quality recordings. You need to use an external sound card that has a good ADC, something like E-MU 0204 USB (it has as A/D converter AK5385) or E-MU 0404.

 

Great, thanks for that confirmation, it was what I was actually wanting to hear so that I can just justify buying some new hardware.

[Maldur]

The problems are:

 

1) 'Clipping'

 

2) lot of timing errors in the recorded audio.

 

1) MacBook Pro's internal soundcard is very crappy no matter what OS is used, avoid that. Buy Apogee Duet II.

 

2) Problems with OS/storage media. Try defragment your volumes, maybe even HDD needs to replaced. Yes, even SnowLeopard volume needs to defragment .

 

That Pioneer mixer... don't use that in signal chain, there a lot of electrolytical caps and unneeded buffer amps. Connect your RIAA amp directly to Apogee (or some other external card).

 

MacPro (Desktop) with SL10.6.8 and Adobe Audition for Mac works great, with modded Juli@ soundcard (uses that A/D AK5385VF that SoNic67 mentioned).

[Zephilim]

Hi yebbi,

 

One thing that will help avoid clipping and more importantly, improve the needledrops overall, is something I discovered over the years in my day-to-day work:

 

Every monolithic A-D converter in my experience will exhibit less distortion at -6 (or lower) than it will at -1. In English, this means that initial conversion to digital, which is what a needledrop is, should have the level adjusted so that the loudest peak in the music does not exceed -6 dBFS on the meters. Final levels should be adjusted digitally.

(This assumes recording to a 24-bit file. Recording to 16-bits puts a quality ceiling on the result as soon as it is digitized.)

 

With 24-bits, I'd worry less if the maximum peak during that initial digitizing is at -20 than I would if it was at -2. When the final level is adjusted, in the digital domain, once the recording is done, the -20 version will provide a cleaner result than the -2 version. Of course, with live recording from microphones, one never knows how loud the maximum peak is going to be, so I leave lots of headroom, with no worries. When preparing to do a needledrop, one can always play the record and let the software provide a level reading, so you know exactly where the maximum level peak(s) occur(s) and how loud it is. The next time you play the record (perhaps after letting it "rest"), you know exactly how to set the level.

 

All this of course assumes there *is* a record level control. Some software does not provide this. I would use such software as often as I'd use a car without a steering wheel. ;-}

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

Thanks for the insight. Just have a question though. The way I'm currently recording is to adjust the line-in level on my mixer to the -1 Db level and then in Adobe Audition, I monitor the level there to ensure it doesn't go over -3 db (as advised by Adobe in their help documentation. In Adobe there is no opportunity to automatically set the level, which is what you alluded to previously. I remember when I was recording a while ago using Garage Band on OS-X, it would automatically set the level which is admirable. But I wouldn't use Garage Band because it only supports up to 16bit @44.1khz. So the conclusion I draw from your advice is that I should be dialling down the level on the mixer to -6db, but I don't quite know what you mean about adjusting digitally ('Final levels should be adjusted digitally'). My hunch is that you mean there may be a post recording process that can be applied that will boost the level up to the required level, but I don't know what this process may be.

 

Cheers.

[SoNic67]

If you keep using the internal input of your Mac you will not be able to get anything above average. Regardless what settings/programs you use.

Look into spending $150 (on one of the above ADC options) if you really want to do it right. My favorite is the E-MU 0204, because of the AKM's AK5385VF chip performance, but others might be close.

 

PS: Maybe I am biased, I own an E-MU with AK5394A and it's terrific good. It's the same chip as the ADC used in some studio mastering consoles.

[bdiament]

Hi yebbi,

 

Thanks for the insight. Just have a question though. The way I'm currently recording is to adjust the line-in level on my mixer to the -1 Db level and then in Adobe Audition, I monitor the level there to ensure it doesn't go over -3 db (as advised by Adobe in their help documentation. In Adobe there is no opportunity to automatically set the level, which is what you alluded to previously. I remember when I was recording a while ago using Garage Band on OS-X, it would automatically set the level which is admirable. But I wouldn't use Garage Band because it only supports up to 16bit @44.1khz. So the conclusion I draw from your advice is that I should be dialling down the level on the mixer to -6db, but I don't quite know what you mean about adjusting digitally ('Final levels should be adjusted digitally'). My hunch is that you mean there may be a post recording process that can be applied that will boost the level up to the required level, but I don't know what this process may be.

 

Cheers.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would *definitely* set the input level so the maximum peak is no greater than -6. Again, with a 24-bit recording (and I see no reason to use less), I'd rather have a -20 peak than a -2 peak on that first conversion from analog to digital. (Needless to say, I wholeheartedly disagree with the "advice" to see -3 as the max peak. At that point, the opportunity for getting the best out of whatever A-D you are using, has been lost.)

 

As far as adjusting final levels digitally, what I mean is after the file has been digitized and saved (say you recorded from your turntable and created a brand new .aif file -- or whatever format you chose), open that same file in an application that allows you to adjust the gain (level). Let's say, your initial file has a maximum peak of -10. You can use the application with gain adjustment to raise the level to say -0.3. This would be accomplished in the digital domain, working with (hopefully) a file that has a word length of 24-bits.

 

There are many applications that can accomplish this. Audacity is one example of a free one. At the other extreme, there are applications like Reaper (a superb bargain that outperforms a number of $1000 programs).

 

It all depends on how far you want to take it. I see a lot of advice in this thread to replace certain hardware items you are using. Of course, spending a few thousand dollars might get better performance than what you have now. (There are devices that will provide excellent RIAA decoding and pre-amplification for your turntable signal, convert the signal to digital, record it to perfection and provide a means for adjusting level of the digitized file, all at state-of-the-art quality, all in a single box.) But I didn't see that in the question you asked, so I'm assuming you want to make the best of what you are currently using.

 

Have fun!

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio