Mutec MC-3+

[Balázs]

I've been using a REF10 with two cascaded MC3+USBs (connected with AES/ABU) Definitely better than one MC3+USB. A third one didn't provide an audible benefit. The quality of the AES/ABU cable plays a role but the impact of the input USB cable has been huge. In my system I have found the  Entreq Infinity Atlantis digital line very good.

[LowMidHigh]

20 minutes ago, Balázs said:

I've been using a REF10 with two cascaded MC3+USBs (connected with AES/ABU) Definitely better than one MC3+USB. A third one didn't provide an audible benefit. The quality of the AES/ABU cable plays a role but the impact of the input USB cable has been huge. In my system I have found the  Entreq Infinity Atlantis digital line very good.

 

Thanks you. I was looking for this particular input.

 

I gather you feed the 1st MC3 with USB. I wonder if going coax would render the 2nd MC+ superfluous. I'll try soon as I'm waiting for REF10 + 2nd MC3. I can't believe anything can improve my current sound, but oh lord, let me be wrong

 

[justubes]

On 11/2/2018 at 10:27 AM, LowMidHigh said:

I have a feeling the less than stellar USB performance is why a stack of MC3USB is needed to clean up the signal further. 

 

I doubt cascading will do much when spdif/Aes is the source. But I'll find out soon... 

I remember when i removed the usb card, there is a vcxo for the usb input. I cannot confirm but presume that the vcxo on the usb board was not reclocked by the MC3+ USB.

 

I have been wanting to ask Christian on this and have kept away from USB unitl i can confirmed it is indeed reclocked at the usb card as well.

[Balázs]

5 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Thanks you. I was looking for this particular input.

 

I gather you feed the 1st MC3 with USB. I wonder if going coax would render the 2nd MC+ superfluous. I'll try soon as I'm waiting for REF10 + 2nd MC3. I can't believe anything can improve my current sound, but oh lord, let me be wrong

 

 

Yes my input signal is via USB coming from an Uptone ISO REGEN + masterclocked SOtM tx-USBultra combo. 

[Balázs]

3 minutes ago, justubes said:

I remember when i removed the usb card, there is a vcxo for the usb input. I cannot confirm but presume that the vcxo on the usb board was not reclocked by the MC3+ USB.

 

I have been wanting to ask Christian on this and have kept away from USB unitl i can confirmed it is indeed reclocked at the usb card as well.

 

When I changed the two MC3+USBs to be driven by LPSU I also removed the USB card from the second unit which has contributed to the sonic benefits.

[LowMidHigh]

Changing the subject for a second. 

Vis-a-vis re-clockering, I've repeatedly encountered a basic question: "How do I get away from USB and still playing music off my Mac?"

My solution: an affordable DAP. Its USB is connected to the Mac for audio transfer and charging, while it's mini spdif feeds the MC3.

Best of both worlds.

[m5sime]

Has anyone experimented with using the Mutec clock out to feed your DAC as well as feed it audio (to sync them?) I tried A/B tests on my Brooklyn DAC (internal clock that Mtyek recommend), using the sync on audio (i.e. clock rate of the stream via AES in my case (from the Mutec) and also 'ext' clock on the DAC - which uses the word clock output from the Mutec via a BNC cable to the Mytek ext clock in.. 

 

Cannot say I heard much difference - or at least very subtle.. Guessing the Mytek isn't wanting to use an Ext clock, isn't optimised for it, or the clock quality in the Mutec is similar to the Mytek.. Perhaps others have tried their REF 10 feeding the Mutec and their DAC?

 

Simon

[LowMidHigh]

4 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Has anyone experimented with using the Mutec clock out to feed your DAC as well as feed it audio (to sync them?) I tried A/B tests on my Brooklyn DAC (internal clock that Mtyek recommend), using the sync on audio (i.e. clock rate of the stream via AES in my case (from the Mutec) and also 'ext' clock on the DAC - which uses the word clock output from the Mutec via a BNC cable to the Mytek ext clock in.. 

 

Cannot say I heard much difference - or at least very subtle.. Guessing the Mytek isn't wanting to use an Ext clock, isn't optimised for it, or the clock quality in the Mutec is similar to the Mytek.. Perhaps others have tried their REF 10 feeding the Mutec and their DAC?

 

Simon

From Myteck's Design Philosophy document, vis-a-vis the Brooklyn:

Special attention to clock jitter. Internal Femtoclock generator (jitter<0.82ps)

 

MC+3 clock:

Clock Jitter < 1 ps

 

So you're unlikely to perceive any difference. There's an entire discussion in this thread regarding the Brooklyn. If you want to know more,  use the search option.

 

[LowMidHigh]

9 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Has anyone experimented with using the Mutec clock out to feed your DAC as well as feed it audio (to sync them?) I tried A/B tests on my Brooklyn DAC (internal clock that Mtyek recommend), using the sync on audio (i.e. clock rate of the stream via AES in my case (from the Mutec) and also 'ext' clock on the DAC - which uses the word clock output from the Mutec via a BNC cable to the Mytek ext clock in.. 

 

Cannot say I heard much difference - or at least very subtle.. Guessing the Mytek isn't wanting to use an Ext clock, isn't optimised for it, or the clock quality in the Mutec is similar to the Mytek.. Perhaps others have tried their REF 10 feeding the Mutec and their DAC?

 

Simon

Crap! You posted everything to do with he Brooklyn on this thread yourself! Why bring it up again?

[mourip]

Has anyone here used AudioLinux in a setup where they are doing USB out to a Mutec 3+ USB?

 

Or used Roon Rock similarly?

 

Just wondering if these OS's would recognize it properly...

[6aardvark9]

Finally took the plunge and cracked open the Mutec to bypass the SMPS with a linear power supply. Taking the USB input from a MacBook Pro via tX-USBultra (powered by LPS-1) and output via SPDIF coax to Blu2/Dave... and wow, what a step up from just the SOtM reclocking

[m5sime]

6 minutes ago, 6aardvark9 said:

Finally took the plunge and cracked open the Mutec to bypass the SMPS with a linear power supply. Taking the USB input from a MacBook Pro via tX-USBultra (powered by LPS-1) and output via SPDIF coax to Blu2/Dave... and wow, what a step up from just the SOtM reclocking

Hi - it wasn’t that clear if all of this change was the different mains source vs insertion of the Mutec into your system. Could you clarify please?

[6aardvark9]

4 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Hi - it wasn’t that clear if all of this change was the different mains source vs insertion of the Mutec into your system. Could you clarify please?

 

Good point... I originally bought the Mutec when I was running a Hugo TT, however, when I upgraded to the Dave I decided to stick to purely USB driven input and put the Mutec in the cupboard.  Having decided to hack the PS of the Mutec, I did test the unmodified unit in the system and to my ears the overall sound was 'different' rather than definitely better (it probably was better).  With the LPS in play, it didn't take too long to realise that everything was so much smoother. Hope that clarifies things for you

[mourip]

Tonight I downloaded the M3USB driver package from Mutec and Norton quarantined the file claiming that it was "Trojan.Gen.SMH".

 

Has anyone else seen this? The file on their website is over 2 years old and I have downloaded it previously without issue.

[One and a half]

Yes Norton quarantines the Mutec drivers. Restore the file and install as is. No Trojan.

[mourip]

Just now, One and a half said:

Yes Norton quarantines the Mutec drivers. Restore the file and install as is. No Trojan.

 

Thanks!

[zephyr24069]

On 10/11/2018 at 3:45 AM, julian.david said:

 

Hi there, 

While it’s true that some of Cybershaft’s latest 10 MHz clocks match the phase noise performance of the REF 10 at 1 Hz offset at a lower price, I think it’s also worth pointing out that these OCXOs are used, recycled oscillators with potentially questionable long-term performance. This is no secret as Cybershaft themselves note it in the fine print of these product pages. We’ve been doing quite a bit of research in this field at MUTEC prior to the launch of the REF 10. Our main developer has inside knowledge of the second-hand oscillator market and how these oscillators are handled in the process. So for us at MUTEC there were and still are a lot of reasons why we stay away from these predominantly Chinese-sourced recycled OCXOs.  

 

Sure, there’s a 2-year warranty but a performance decay and functional unreliability may easily slip in unnoticed over time. Buying a REF 10 guarantees a brand-new, carefully tested German-made OCXO that will provide excellent performance for many years to come. I personally believe there’s a real value in having the peace of mind that your newly bought equipment performs at its peak. But ultimately the great thing about competition is that everybody can make those decision on their own depending on their preference and budget.

 

BTW, this discussion is probably better suited to take place in the REF 10 thread but I still thought it'd be worth chiming in here.

 

Hope this helps,

Julian

To be fair Julian, I don't believe (IMHO) that you can say with absolute assurance that all those negative scenarios are going to happen with a used oscillator (that is used and proven to work by the work) any more than you can guarantee that a new oscillator will not have any of those issues and will operate flawlessly.  I am not saying anyone is right or anyone is wrong here, just that we all need to be just as objective about the positives as we are the negatives.

 

[julian.david]

On 11/19/2018 at 6:04 PM, zephyr24069 said:

To be fair Julian, I don't believe (IMHO) that you can say with absolute assurance that all those negative scenarios are going to happen with a used oscillator (that is used and proven to work by the work) any more than you can guarantee that a new oscillator will not have any of those issues and will operate flawlessly.  I am not saying anyone is right or anyone is wrong here, just that we all need to be just as objective about the positives as we are the negatives.

 

 

Of course there are no guarantees. Any component can potentially fail sooner that its expected live cycle. But your example is like saying that buying a used car with all the latest check-ups is the same as buying a brand new car. I personally tend to disagree with that, but each to their own. As I said before, it never hurts to have options to choose from depending on your budget and expectations.
 

[zephyr24069]

16 minutes ago, julian.david said:

 

Of course there are no guarantees. Any component can potentially fail sooner that its expected live cycle. But your example is like saying that buying a used car with all the latest check-ups is the same as buying a brand new car. I personally tend to disagree with that, but each to their own. As I said before, it never hurts to have options to choose from depending on your budget and expectations.
 

Julian,

Fair comment, observation and great discussion, so thank you!

 

As I pointed out on another thread, OCXO-based clocks are really the only area where hold this to be true but I did say to have the other contributor check with me in a few years to see how wrong I may be ?!

 

Ironically enough, despite being able to do so, I don't buy new cars and at age 55 I'm happy with that choice over a fairly long life.   I bought one new car when I was in my early 20s, was extremely proud to do that after driving several used cars and thought "I had arrived" in life as an adult as it were.  A few years later though after a sufficient amount of non-warranty maintenance and seeing a friend buy a quite expensive brand new car, drive it out of the dealership and then get T-boned 15 minutes later at an intersection by a truck and getting the shock of owing the bank money as he was upside down 15 minutes after buying a new car that was totaled as a "used" vehicle, it changed my opinion. Granted in the current environment there are longer and better Bumper2Bumper warranties and maintenance plans but to me, it's a crap-shoot to put it politely new or used no matter what you choose so I prefer not to take that 15%+ minimum depreciation hit driving a new car out of the dealer. 

 

***Instead I wind up taking an even greater depreciation hit on all my other new audio gear and cables most of the time <LOL>!

 

Life is funny....

 

Mark

[LowMidHigh]

Does the MC3 thoroughly strip out the incoming clock information and  then append a complety fresh clock instead? Or is the old clock information being manipulated to increase accuracy?

My reading suggests thd former: a totally new clock. Observations points to the latter, else why would different sources and protocols sound unlike? In other words, If the old clock is discarded is favore of the MC3, the sound should be identical independently of source. That's not the case, though.

Does anyone know more?

[Abtr]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 2:44 AM, LowMidHigh said:

Does the MC3 thoroughly strip out the incoming clock information and  then append a complety fresh clock instead? Or is the old clock information being manipulated to increase accuracy?

My reading suggests thd former: a totally new clock. Observations points to the latter, else why would different sources and protocols sound unlike? In other words, If the old clock is discarded is favore of the MC3, the sound should be identical independently of source. That's not the case, though.

Does anyone know more?

Coax and toslink differ in electrical properties and in the amount of jitter that their interfaces produce. Asynchronous USB generally has the lowest jitter, but it tends to be electrically noisy. Now jitter is not too much of a problem for a modern DDC or DAC, but electrical noise (common mode or differential mode) is a problem. If the USB input of the Mutec is not properly isolated, then electrical noise from the source/computer can interfere with DD conversion (reclocking) in the Mutec and possibly with DA conversion in the DAC.

[LowMidHigh]

6 hours ago, Abtr said:

Coax and toslink differ in electrical properties and in the amount of jitter that their interfaces produce. Asynchronous USB generally has the lowest jitter, but it tends to be electrically noisy. Now jitter is not too much of a problem for a modern DDC or DAC, but electrical noise (common mode or differential mode) is a problem. If the USB input of the Mutec is not properly isolated, then electrical noise from the source/computer can interfere with DD conversion (reclocking) in the Mutec and possibly with DA conversion in the DAC.

So that nearly explains the USB difference in sound. Still, my DAP spdif sounds considerably better than the optical on the Chromcast. So the jitter level must have a substantial impact on DDC inside the MC3. 

[Abtr]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:31 AM, LowMidHigh said:

So that nearly explains the USB difference in sound. Still, my DAP spdif sounds considerably better than the optical on the Chromcast. So the jitter level must have a substantial impact on DDC inside the MC3. 

Yes, the many reports indicating that daisy-chaining 2 (or more) M-C3+ reclockers further improves SQ also suggest that input jitter levels are still important. And my own experience with a single MC-3+ (not the USB version) is that coax out sounds better than toslink out, but that may be DAC specific.

[LowMidHigh]

Seeking advice on a new server into a cascade of two MC3USB feeding active monitors. 

 

My current source is HiBy R6, mini spdif. The sound is fantastic, but I'm looking into an upgrade: either SOtM sMS-200Ultra or Allo Digione Signature player. 

 

The 200 has a USB output, which I don't have a good experience with in general; both my MacBook Pro and R6 USB leave a lot to be desired. Of course, the SOtM may dispell all my apprehensions and end up sounding amazing with the Mutec. 

 

The Allo is fitted with 75ohm BNC, which is my favorite after AES. 

 

Anyone care to share their experience/opinion? 

[julian.david]

Hi all, 

 

As some of you may have already noticed, MUTEC has changed its U.S. distribution to TransAudio Group, a very seasoned and highly respected distributor of pro audio gear. They also are the exclusive distributor for ATC loudspeakers in the audiophile world. As a consequence it has unfortunately been inevitable to raise prices a little bit, but there are some real benefits for U.S. customers, too: MUTEC products like the REF 10, MC-3+ and MC-3+USB are now available and in stock at Sweetwater with free shipping and financing. So any last-minute Christmas shopping will be taken care of immediately! Also, you'll see MUTEC represented at more trade shows in 2019, which means that you can talk to real people in person and try out the equipment on your own. 

 

Alright, back to the tech talk ?

Julian