Mutec MC-3+

[k-man]

The option to have a 10Mhz input is an extra $200 charge (I quickly recall) on top of SMS Ultra.

The exception is for existing SMS-200 users to upgrade to the Ultra who will get the input upgrade offered at no extra cost i.e. $900 all-in for a time limited period.

[jelt2359]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

I had success, meaning sound with no dropouts, when using my LiveClock to provide external wordclock to both my D16 and my Mutec which as acting a reclocker. I did find that the sound improved when I disconnected the Mutec from the LiveClock leading me to believe that the internal clock of the Mutec was excellent but that the D16 benefitted from a better external clock. I have not tried looping the Mutec back to the Rednet.

Only one way to find out! You could do the same experiment I did and see

 

I suspect the rednet is an exception in that it can be used in the way we want to, because it takes sampling rate information not from the word clock, but from the Dante transmitter. So there's going to be a single source of sampling rate info (Dante transmitter) for both rednet and mutec and single clock reference (mutec ref10 via mutec) for both the rednet and the mutec. 

[pam1975]

guys, this is probably a stupid question but when using the Mutec MC3+ USB as an external wordclock, and using it for both 44.1khz and 48khz, which 2 outputs do you use on the back?

A and B from WCLK OUT 1? (ie A1 and B1)

Or A from WCLK OUT 1 and A from WCLK OUT 2? (A1 and A2)

 

thanks!

[cycler2]

Just ordered a MC3+USB and have been reading this topic for operation tips.  Couldn't find an answer to a question I have about a USB cable from my music computer to the Mutec.  I know the Mutec is self-powered; I'm wondering if there would be any SQ benefit to using a USB cable that does not carry 5V from the computer.  Or does the Mutec simply ignore the 5V line?  Or should I stop fussing and just enjoy the Mutec

Rich

[Middy]

easy test just cover the pin for 5v on the usb cable with a little tape...

[beessy]

mc-3+USB has galvanic isolation on usb input, so it need little current to work properly.

[cycler2]

3 minutes ago, beessy said:

mc-3+USB has galvanic isolation on usb input, so it need little current to work properly.

Thanks beessy and Middy for your prompt replies. 

Rich

[Kritpoon]

2 hours ago, cycler2 said:

Just ordered a MC3+USB and have been reading this topic for operation tips.  Couldn't find an answer to a question I have about a USB cable from my music computer to the Mutec.  I know the Mutec is self-powered; I'm wondering if there would be any SQ benefit to using a USB cable that does not carry 5V from the computer.  Or does the Mutec simply ignore the 5V line?  Or should I stop fussing and just enjoy the Mutec

Rich

 

To my understading, the Mutec needs the 5V supply from the USB. I remember reading it somewhere on the ISO-Regen thread.

 

Krit.

[cycler2]

Thanks, Krit.  I'll use a standard USB cable, but I might try something other than generic, like a WireWorld Ultraviolet 7.  Not too expensive and I have heard good things about it.

Rich

[Cazzesman]

Hello folks,

 

I'm after some learned advice, please.

 

My system - CAPS (Lagoon - WS2012 R2 Essentials OS with AudiophileOptimizer v2.20 beta 5 in Ultimate Core mode - 128g SS HD + Sotm USB exp card) - Synology NAS DS411 Slim - JRiver 18 - Elijah Quad Braid Mk4 USB Cable (Aqvox Low Noise Power Supply at each end of cable) - into JLTi Oppo 105D (Level 4 Upgrade).  Opp to Pre to Active Speakers

 

Today I was loaned a Mutec MC 3+ USB.

 

I restored my Lagoon to GUI and installed the Mutec ASIO driver without a hitch. 

 

Note:  I did not go into the Windows control panel and adjust anything as per the Mutec manual because I use JRiver and the Sotm USB Exp Card and was under the impression this was not necessary.   (Is this my issue?)

 

I Re-installed AO in Ultimate mode as per every other time I have done it.

 

Redid the Service Tool from GUI back to Core and re ran the AO a 2nd time.   It all worked perfectly without the Mutec in the audio chain.

 

Earlier in the day, I ran an Optical cable from my Plasma TV to the Mutec.  Then Optical out of the Mutec into the Oppo.  The sound was fine through the speakers at 48 khz.

 

I inserted the Mutec between the Lagoon and the Oppo.  USB into the Mutec and Coaxial (75 ohm) out into the Oppo.

 

I reset JRiver Playback option to read the Mutec Asio Driver instead of the Oppo Driver and hit play on a standard 44.1 tune.  

 

JRiver popped up the error message that something went wrong with playback and it could not recognise 44.1/16 in Asio.     I tried Wasapi and Kernal Streaming.  Same message popped up.   These both work with the Mutec out of the Chain.

 

I have tried all manner of configurations on the Mutec trying to get some sound but always the same pop up appears in JRiver.

 

I have read the Mutec manual 50 times and I am confident I have the correct setting for USB Input.  I get the Blue Lock light activated.

 

I have gone through the process of having the 3 items - Lagoon, Mutec and Oppo started and/or off in various configurations trying to get the Lagoon to see the Mutec, but no luck.

 

I know it will be a simple setting somewhere but I can't work it out.  

 

Any thoughts, please

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cazzesman]

I have moved my post/question to the  Highend-AudioPC (Sponsored) forum

 

[Miko]

On 7/6/2017 at 5:58 PM, cycler2 said:

Thanks, Krit.  I'll use a standard USB cable, but I might try something other than generic, like a WireWorld Ultraviolet 7.  Not too expensive and I have heard good things about it.

Rich

 

Hi Rich,

I use a WireWorld Starlight 7 that I bought used on Audiogon. Works great. It's built to a very high standard compared to yer average generic USB stuff. Does it make a difference? Who knows... but at least I know I have one hell of a beefy USB cable!

[Miko]

General Mutec Question!

 

So I get my weekly "new stuff on Audiogon" email today.. I start cruising the ads and what do I find? A black Mutec MC3 USB for sale at a very attractive price.

 

Couple of swipes and taps and boom! Pack ur stuff.. ur moving!

 

So.. my question is what's the best way to run them both? Anyone here enjoying the pleasure of two or more Mutecs?

 

Theres an article running around about a guy who tried up to 4 strung together. If I remember correctly I think 3 was the magic number.

 

I have one already which I love... damn fine piece of Equipment!

 

thanks!!

[Miko]

I received my second MC3+USB today and have it installed "quick and dirty" in my system. Yes, after 1 album I can tell that everything just sounds better. Another layer of haze removed, instruments and vocals are sharper and more detailed. I have a set of fully factory upgraded and modified SoundLab A1's...They are incredible on their own and will let you know if there is something funky in a recording. They are putting out wonderful sound.

 

In order to be able to try out this second unit, i ordered a pair of Mogami W3080 Blue aes/ebu cables.(1 meter ) I was using a single Gutwire, but i thought it would be better to run the same type until my Supra Cables are built and delivered.

 

I just played one of my reference albums "Tango in the night" by Fleetwood Mac the remastered 96/24 version. I'm playing that with Jriver MC22 upsampled to 192/24 from my P.C.via a WireWorld Starlight 7 USB cable.

 

That goes into the first MC3, then out via aes/ebu into the second MC3 and then out into my dac using the Mogami 3080's. That whole album played and i just sat here and enjoyed each and every song.

 

I now have "The Ultimate Collection" Michael McDonald 44/16 and "What a fool believes" is currently playing. This track has extended and track length highs. They are crisp, no sibilance or smearing.

I'm amazed at what I'm hearing. I thought my system was pretty damn good before and the additional leap of improvement by slotting another MC3 into my system is awesome.

 

I've spent lots of money modifying my gear and lots of my time tweaking my system. Nothing has brought this kind of manifest improvement to my system before. Just plugging a unit in...that's it. wow.....

 

The only thing i can think of that comes close was when i sent the electronic plates back to SoundLab for the Consummate and Hot Rod upgrades. That was many times more then a couple MC3's...

 

So yea, if you haven't tried doubling up..i say go for it! I'm now setting my sights on adding a third...stay tuned

[coogee.de]

I also had once 2 MC3+USB in my system, just because I was curious if cascading really improves SQ.

-> I could not hear any improvement.

And I also could not (and still can not) imagine, WHY it should work.

IMHO it can only improve the sound, when the 1st step does not work correctly (due to production variances?) and the 2nd does.

If you have any idea, why it should work, please tell me. I am really interested in an explanation.

 

And in general I only heard improvements with my older DACs.

I guess, most modern DACs (especially the ones with XMOS driven USB inputs) do the de-jittering almost as good as an MC3+USB.

[Miko]

I thought the same thing... I'm using a P.C. with the standard USB output running win 10 and JRiver MC23 and all my music is on a 1TB external SSD. When I switched from a Singxer SU-1 to the MC3USB that was a huge improvement. 

 

I haven't changed anything since since purchasing a second MC3USB. Just the subsitution of aes/ebu cables. Yet, everything I've played has sounded better. I left everything on and warmed up for a day and I sat down for some more testing and I can tell the change. It's not as great as when I installed the first one, but it did improve it. 

 

The background or depth in the music seemed to increase. The space and definition around instruments.. Fred Wesley, former horn man for James Brown among others has released several Albums over the years and I played random tracks from 4 albums. 

 

I can tell tell the difference in how they are recorded. Same thing with Steely Dan. It's hard to say why it works and I think it must be system dependent. I have very resolving speakers and they do not sugar coat anything... what goes in, comes out. 

 

So for me me it seems to work well enough that I'm going to try adding up to two more..

[coogee.de]

Your description of the sound improvements is exactly my experience with an older DAC and 1 MC3USB.

 

My final thought about this matter:

If there is an improvement of SQ, Mutec would know/find/explain the reason and mention it on their homepage. But they do not claim it, they just say "look, what someone found when cascading MC3USBs".

[Miko]

I would add that everyone has a unique set up and the ability to hear. That is the fun/frustration of this hobby. What sounds good to you, may not sound to me and so on.

 

I've been into this hobby for 30 years. I started with Records and Reel to Reel plus FM Radio. I bought one of the first CD players and CD's..

 

This is my 4th reference system during that time. Digital sound has never quite sounded right to me. For a few years I gave up trying.

 

With the advent of P.C. audio over the last 10+ years, things have improved greatly. My current all digital system sounds incredible. 

 

It took many years and a bunch of cash..it can be done. Proper set up and optimization is critical. 

 

Its not really Mutecs place to suggest how you should set up your system. That article was describing one persons idea to try chaining a few together. 

 

In his situation, he found three to be to his liking. I, thought it was worth trying and so far two is making a positive addition.

 

The important thing to remember that in our hobby, there is no right or wrong way. Everyone has something different in equipment and the space it's played In etc..

 

Reviews and feedback from sites like this should be understood as guidance. Sharing our collective experience and ideas helps us all to achieve what's best for each of us.

[modmix]

48 minutes ago, coogee.de said:

If there is an improvement of SQ, Mutec would know/find/explain the reason and mention it on their homepage.

There is of course an explanation:

 

Jitter can be seen as a "signal" of its own having a spectrum - how much and how often does the sample rate deviate from the specified value.

A MC-3+ works as a low pass filter for this "signal" - it decreases the level of fast sample rate deviations by a certain amount.

In case you add more low pass filters (i.e. MC-3+ in this caswe), reduction above edge frequency will increase - the figures given to describe the empirically results fit very well to that theory.

 

Of course, this only can happen in case your dac is sensitive to jitter.

 

Is a manufacturer obliged to explain each and every aspect of a product on the homepage?

 

Ulli

[coogee.de]

Of course, Mutec does not have to explain every aspect. But the highend world is so full of marketing screaming, I would really be surprised, if such major improvement possibility is not officially mentioned.

And it is quite easy to implement 3 or more circuits into 1 gadget, so IMHO it would have already be done by any manufacturer.

 

I understand your low pass filter explanation. Serialization of low pass filters works in the analog world, but does it also apply here?

 

Maybe I have a major misunderstanding of the de-jitter functionality:

1) detect the sampling rate

2) sample the signal with a much higher sampling frequency than the original sampling rate

3) use any algorithm to detect which of the samples are caused by jitter

4) recombine the samples

5) use your own high precision frequency source to put them out again

-> the original clock information is removed and replaced by a new and more precise clock.

 

So, the only jitter in the new signal should be the own jitter of the de-jittering gadget.

IMHO further steps can only reduce this jitter and only if the 2nd clock is more precise.

[mourip]

I just picked up a second used Mutec which will either go into my headphone rig or be chained after the Mutec USB I already have in my speaker rig. Both are doing re-clocking duties with AES in and AES out following my Rednet D16. So I will post once I find out how much difference it makes. The first Mutec made a clear difference.

 

Just more subjective data points as an experiment...

[modmix]

14 hours ago, coogee.de said:

but does it also apply here?

Short answer: yes.

 

Maybe I have a major misunderstanding of the de-jitter functionality:

Maybe ,-)

 

1) detect the sampling rate

Important step ,-)

Note that the input sampling rate will almost never ever be exact nor stable,

 

2) sample the signal with a much higher sampling frequency than the original sampling rate

3) use any algorithm to detect which of the samples are caused by jitter

4) recombine the samples

5) use your own high precision frequency source to put them out again

In re-clocking mode, MC-3+ does not change any bits - for that reason I doubt that this model applies here.

 

-> the original clock information is removed and replaced by a new and more precise clock.

From several measurements I've done I can assure you: the original clock is just shaped with respect to jitter but preserved - 44.099 Hz remain 44.099Hz.

This is what is meant by talking about a low pass filter applied to the jitter signal.

 

So, the only jitter in the new signal should be the own jitter of the de-jittering gadget.

It will be low pass filtered source jitter plus some intrinsic jitter of the MC-3+ itself.

 

 

IMHO further steps can only reduce this jitter and only if the 2nd clock is more precise.

From a wrong "O" to incorrect a conclusion ,-)

 

hth

Ulli

 

 

 

[coogee.de]

Found on Mutec site:

"Extreme oversampling of incoming data allows the audio to be recombined and merged with a newly generated ultra-low jitter clock signal at ultimate precision, enhancing the re-clocked audio with unparalleled richness of details, spatiality, and musicality."

(https://mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php?lng=en#description)

[modmix]

Ok. The german text reads "das sehr hochfrequente Abtasten des eingehenden Audiosignals".

"the very high-frequency scanning of the incoming audio signal" seems to me to be a more appropriate translation.

 

 

[cycler2]

On 7/22/2017 at 6:52 PM, Miko said:

 

Hi Rich,

I use a WireWorld Starlight 7 that I bought used on Audiogon. Works great. It's built to a very high standard compared to yer average generic USB stuff. Does it make a difference? Who knows... but at least I know I have one hell of a beefy USB cable!

Hi Miko,

A friend loaned me for evaluation a Wireworld Ultraviolet and Silver Starlight.7.  I'm not usually a cable guy, but although the Ultraviolet was an advance over the generic Mutec cable, the Silver Starlight was a couple of orders of magnitude beyond that.  I bought one. 

My friend, incidentally, is a mastering engineer who over the years would assert that if a cable sounds different from another, one is broken.  He no longer believes that.

I will see him next week and bring over my Mutec to chain them together as you have done.  It might make him (and me) crazy!  I'm also considering putting my Regen into the chain. 

Rich