The Most Under Priced Vintage Turntables?

[Gary.D.Olson]

Audio equipment is a low priority in our household. We often have little to nothing left after the bills are paid, so buying the best audio gear is impossible. Fortunately, it is VERY possible to compile a low-cost but good vintage system from discarded-but-good pieces from yesterday. Good thing they're in abundance:) I paid under $1000 for my entire system (described below, including cables & JRiverMC). The one thing missing is a turntable.

 

We have about 100 or so LP's from our crazy youth in the 70's & 80's - when we last owned a table. There are hundreds of tables for sale at any given moment here in Southern California, and many of these would probably sound great in my system without costing too much. I just need a little help from those who've been around long enough to know which of these discarded-but-good pieces from yesterday are worth buying.

 

Please feel free to suggest some turntable models that you think might represent a great value if found on the secondary market. Between craigslist & ebay, the chances are fair to good that your suggested model is, or soon will become, available.

 

Much obliged.

 

 

Gary

[Panelhead]

Usually the brand name tables; Thorens, Linn, Rega, Moth, Verdier, and such hold up well. The big Japanese direct drives usually sell cheap. Buy by the pound. A big Technics, Denon, or Kenwood.

Used to hear of big, heavy Denon direct drives going for 25.00. They have nice tonearms too.

I use a Technics SL-1200. Have used much more expensive; Goldmund, Well Tempered, Merrill, Mapleknoll, and Revox. The SL-1200 is as good as any with a little tweaking. All tables are tweaky.

[wkhanna]

I must agree wholeheartedly with Panelhead’s assessment ofthe SL-1200. However, their value is well known & reflected in the typical price they demand. There are also some V good Denons & others that are sometimes also found at bargain price, but provenance & condition can be iffy. Then there is the matter set-up. Adjusting for proper stylus geometry & tracking force can be daunting for the uninitiated.

 

IMHO, entry-level offerings from Rega & Pro-Ject deliver great value. Supplied with pre-adjusted cartridges, they are a simple solution for those just beginning the (return) adventure to vinyl. Avoided are the disappointments often encountered when purchasing used turntables that most often will require some experience & minimum level of proper minor repair & set-up procedure in order to extract the best from the unit.

 

It would be a shame to have one’s expectations dashed due to starting with a turntable that will not deliver the true pleasures vinyl has to offer.

 

Our music-loving comrades over at the Vinyl Assylum would be more than happy to welcome you into the fold & provide much more detailed & trustworthy advice regarding your quest.

[wkhanna]

Meant to add that the phono-pre in your 2330b is quite capable even by today's standards.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Meant to add that the phono-pre in your 2330b is quite capable even by today's standards.

 

I'd like to thank you and panelhead for your help. And thanks for thinking of the phono stage of my receiver (though I may have decided to replace the Marantz with a recently-acquired and minty Luxman R-117 which should also do well with a tt). I'm a DIY'er and have already begun studying for the skill of turntable adjustment & refinement, though I am open to just about any decent affordable table.

 

Thank again.

 

 

Gary

[wkhanna]

Thank again.

 

 

Gary

 

Of course, you are most welcome.

Additionally, this link to the Assylum's FAQ page has V good info on TT set-up.

Just scroll down to the Turntable & Vinyl section.

Do keep us posted on your progress, please.

 

Oh, & one other non-budget-busting recommendation before the first needle-drop ....... Spin Clean Record Cleaner

[Gilles]

Gary,

 

I am not very knowledgeable in turntables but you may want to try finding a Lenco.

The L75 seems to be quite coveted and still affordable, maybe only as low as $250 if in very good condition, at least in my area.

 

You will also find a ton of info on Lencos on http://www.lencoheaven.net, plenty of advice, with photos, on maintenance and refurbishing. This site is great for DIYers.

 

I refurbished my 30ish year old L78 last year and am very happy I did, as opposed to buying a new table which, according to the hifi audio shop I usually go to, would have cost me as much as 3K for the same quality today.

 

Good luck with your project,

 

Gilles

[firedog]

I've seen some of the old Thorens around and they are still good, but I don't think they come cheap.

 

In a lot of cities there are shops that will do a basic refurbishing of a TT (cleaning,new belts, new connectors,etc) for a reasonable price.

 

That said, there are some good "value" turntables being made today that you could get new. They aren't one of those $25 finds, but would be a good alternative if your budget isn't too tight.

 

BTW, have you asked around among your acquaintances? Or on Facebook? I think there are still people with one in the attic that would probably be happy to give you a TT, or sell it to you for a very reasonable price.

[wkhanna]

Gary,

 

I am not very knowledgeable in turntables but you may want to try finding a Lenco.

The L75 seems to be quite coveted and still affordable, maybe only as low as $250 if in very good condition, at least in my area.

 

You will also find a ton of info on Lencos on www.lencoheaven.net, plenty of advice, with photos, on maintenance and refurbishing. This site is great for DIYers.

 

I refurbished my 30ish year old L78 last year and am very happy I did, as opposed to buying a new table which, according to the hifi audio shop I usually go to, would have cost me as much as 3K for the same quality today.

 

Good luck with your project,

 

Gilles

 

Hi Gilles.

Your Lenco L78 was a treasured find.

Well done!

With Gary’s learned DIY skills & decent on-line support recourses for the chosen brand & model, such a project could be both economical & rewarding.

[Gary.D.Olson]

I've seen some of the old Thorens around and they are still good, but I don't think they come cheap.

 

In a lot of cities there are shops that will do a basic refurbishing of a TT (cleaning,new belts, new connectors,etc) for a reasonable price.

 

That said, there are some good "value" turntables being made today that you could get new. They aren't one of those $25 finds, but would be a good alternative if your budget isn't too tight.

 

BTW, have you asked around among your acquaintances? Or on Facebook? I think there are still people with one in the attic that would probably be happy to give you a TT, or sell it to you for a very reasonable price.

 

My god, man! That is brilliant. I wonder how many great treasures of all types are hidden away in attics and basements, and doomed to end up in a landfill upon the owner's death. Too many, to be sure. If we all knew how much a family member or friend might appreciate some of the things we hoard... I REALLY like the way you think, firedog. A movement to redistribute the things we keep but will never use again helps the people on both sides of the giving.

 

If you have any ideas about how to start such a movement, please feel free to send me a PM or respond here.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Gary

[bluesman]

I'm the original owner of a well maintained 1968 Thorens TD125 MkII / SME that I still use regularly, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that I'd buy one of the many great new TTs out there today before I'd start with an older unit. Good ones like mine sell for silly amounts compared to the current Regas, Pro-jects etc described by others. And you'll probably have to do something to an older one to bring it back to spec. Sure, a new belt and a thorough cleaning will do a lot. But there are hard parts that wear over time and subtly degrade the sound or functionality, e.g. bearings, caps etc. Elastomers age and lose their bounce. Stuff degrades.

 

There are so many great buys out there that you need only look at price and style to pick one that appeals to you. There are many sources as well. I've found Gerry Raskin's Needle Doctor to be a fine source - here's a LINK to the turntable section of that website.

 

If you luck into a great piece at little cost, grab it. And if you simply want to have a nice vintage table, it's worth what it costs. But purely for listening, I'd go new.

[wkhanna]

audiogon link

 

Audio Advisor

 

As examples only.......

 

Remember also, the resale value of a newer TT be will be stable........

 

The costs of a resurrection rebuild gone bad will be difficult to recover.

 

 

[wkhanna]

I really do not know what the true pay-off point would be, nor do I have any idea of your planned budget. If your plan is to spend somewhere around $200 & $250, I think you would be better severed to save up for a while longer & look at a new or new-used TT.

 

A $50 TT with a new $15 belt & a $35 cartridge may suit your needs just fine. But you will not be experiencing anywhere near what vinyl’s capabilities are & in turn be left with both an unrepresentative impression & unfulfilled expectation.

 

But as one of our dear comrades here so eloquently states, "The Music rules, the equipment serves only to seduce".

[bluesman]

"The Music rules, the equipment serves only to seduce".

And like many a seductress, the equipment often lures you with promises it cannot keep. WKH makes a point worth emphasizing - if you low-ball your TT, you'll probably never have an appreciation for the depth and beauty of music from vinyl. Subsonic rumble, minor speed instabilities and the limitations inherent in a used cartridge that was inexpensive when new and abandoned for a reason will likely leave you unsatisfied.

[Alex66]

I would just like to put a little vote in to look at the Dunlop Systemdek, I had one with the acrylic platter upgrade it was very good. Alas I stupidly swapped it for a Linn LP12 and I preferred it to the Linn better soundstage and more detailed. The Linn was replaced by a Pink Triangle which was much better than either. The Systemdek is still made under the guise of one of the Audio Note turntables so you should hopefully be able to get spares and I have seen them go for as low as £50 on the bay. Alas Pink Triangle went bust it seems so spares could be hard and the belt was a pig to get on. I would say for my taste I prefer acrylic plattered TT's others millage may vary. Though I ended up with a Garrard 401 with an SME IV and that was class but they seem to go for silly money and to think I bought my 401 for £40.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Your words are hitting home. There's no point in saving money (especially $200 or so) if it ends up sounding mediocre at best. I can listen to music in the car for that. I'll save a few more bucks for something worthy.

 

In the mean time... an acquaintance (an audiophile from my “other” forum) offered to sell me his near mint Technics SL-1500 with an Audio Technica cartridge and a low-hours AT11E stylus for $165. He thought it was new 2 years ago when he bought it from an elderly woman. It was her late husband’s and he babied it. This is more than I’d originally hoped to spend, but y’all talked me out of wasting my money.

 

What do you think about this table?

 

 

Gary

[wkhanna]

What do you think about this table?

 

 

Gary

 

A quick search over at the Asylum uncovered issues with speed stability & electronic pots V sensitive to dirt & contaminates. No VTA on the arm so adjustment would be accomplished with varying the thick of the mat.

 

Not saying the particular TT your looking at is bad, but I would be sure to do a thorough audition prior to any purchase.

[bluesman]

In the mean time... an acquaintance (an audiophile from my “other” forum) offered to sell me his near mint Technics SL-1500 with an Audio Technica cartridge and a low-hours AT11E stylus for $165....What do you think about this table?

The 1200 was the better loved of the two, but the 1500 could sound just about as good when perfectly set up - it was a very nice piece that should sound fine if in excellent condition. As I recall, the headshell and wiring were a bit flimsy, and depending on the cartridge and condition of the wires they picked up a bit of electrical noise. They seemed to sound best if sitting on a truly solid base or platform, probably because the direct drive platter wasn't as well isolated acoustically as that on a good belt drive TT.

 

The one thing I don't know is whether there are any parts around if the motor or drive train fails.

[wkhanna]

Bluesman - Does the 1500 utilize a similar quartz speed control on the motor as the 1200?

[Panelhead]

Your words are hitting home. There's no point in saving money (especially $200 or so) if it ends up sounding mediocre at best. I can listen to music in the car for that. I'll save a few more bucks for something worthy.

 

In the mean time... an acquaintance (an audiophile from my “other” forum) offered to sell me his near mint Technics SL-1500 with an Audio Technica cartridge and a low-hours AT11E stylus for $165. He thought it was new 2 years ago when he bought it from an elderly woman. It was her late husband’s and he babied it. This is more than I’d originally hoped to spend, but y’all talked me out of wasting my money.

 

What do you think about this table?

 

 

Gary

 

 

Buy it. Since theSL-1200 was discontinued the pricing has gone up for the big Technics decks. A better cartridge may be of benefit. The Ortofon Red, Denon DL-110, Shure, or even a Sumiko Blue Point will get you there.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Buy it. Since theSL-1200 was discontinued the pricing has gone up for the big Technics decks. A better cartridge may be of benefit. The Ortofon Red, Denon DL-110, Shure, or even a Sumiko Blue Point will get you there.

 

 

Generally speaking, does it matter that we have a carpeted concrete slab floor? It's a modern 3820 square-feet single-story house, and it was solidly built. No vibrating. I could also build a plinth for whatever deck if necessary as woodworking is another hobby.

 

Thanks to all for your help. Lots of food for thought.

 

 

Gary

[wkhanna]

Link to a page at Vinylengine on the 1500 that includes links to the service manual & other good info…

 

A sturdy table will suffice. Feet that pierce through the carpet to the subfloor can often improve stability. Also, wall-mounting can be V effective.

[bluesman]

Bluesman - Does the 1500 utilize a similar quartz speed control on the motor as the 1200?

The Mk II versions of both are quartz-controlled. But the original versions of both 1200 and 1500 used a servo control mechanism (still fine and not a problem). The platter on the 1500 is about a pound heavier than on the 1200 and is integral with the drive spindle. I think the rumble spec was about 5db better for the 1200 than the 1500, but the 1500 was as good as my Thorens so that's also not a problem if it's up to spec.

[bluesman]

Generally speaking, does it matter that we have a carpeted concrete slab floor?

Most direct drive tables are a bit more susceptible to acoustic feedback than belt drivers. Having a solid floor is a great start, but the problem with most of the Technics DD TTs was that any vibration in the plinth and base was transmitted through the record to the stylus. This was a combination of acoustic feedback (a phenomenon unknown to those of you who've never played vinyl - it's the mechanical vibration induced by the sound coming from the speakers in the record that's playing and the mechanical device playing it) and internal vibration in the motor and drive mechanism (which was well controlled in the better Technics tables). Many believe that the slight brightness they perceived in records being played on Technics DD tables was caused by internal mechanical vibration. I don't recall hearing this - but I never owned one because I preferred belt drive, and I never heard one through a truly great system.

 

The general solution for acoustic feedback on DD tables was to build a solid mounting surface for them out of wood, because wood is viscoelastic and ideally suited for use as a vibration-dampening base if braced and supported well. But each kind of wood has its own sound transmission and dampening properties, and these change with thickness, contour, structural design etc. Use too thin a piece or too large an unsupported area and you have a guitar top under your turntable,which is not a good thing.

 

We didn't know how to engineer a base to dampen what we wanted to dampen, so we tried what looked good - some of us succeeded and most failed. The reason not to use a solid slab like granite, concrete etc for the TT base mount is that these didn't seem to do what we needed. I tried many things, from flagstone chunks to pavers to slate roof tiles - they all seemed to make things worse by adding a kind of upper midrange ringing.

 

I'd use a set of modern isolation mounts under your Technics - we didn't have them in the '60s and '70s, so we tried everything from hockey pucks to halves of tennis balls. A concrete floor probably helps by reducing room vibration and reflection.

[wkhanna]

I remember often seeing the plank of solid wood or plywood resting on top of the half- inflated bicycle tire.