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6k worth of speakers and a AMP, not getting the most out of them.


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Hello, I've been trying to find the best way to approach my problem but there's so much information available on the internet and I'm not really sure where to begin. I'd really appreciate some advice.

 

So a few years ago I spent a considerable amount of money but got a really good deal on a set of speakers and an AMP. Here's what I purchased:

  • A pair of Dali Concept 10's
  • Dali Ikon Vokal 1 Center
  • Dali Ikon Active Sub
  • A Pair of Dali concept 1 surround speakers
  • Yamaha RX-V673

 

These are all hooked up to my PC through a Auzentech X-meridian 7.1 2g sound card via a coaxial cable.

 

Now when I first got these I thought the whole set up was pretty amazing and was happy, I've since come to realize they don't sound nearly as good as they could and the sound is pretty flat in general.

 

My main usage is listening to music in 2.1 or upmixed to surround and occasional some games and movies in 5.1.

 

My question is what can I do to improve upon this set up?

 

From my reading so far, here's what seem to be the options I should take to upgrade the system:

  • Upgrade the amp: I'm getting the feeling my amp is grossly under-powered considering the size of my front speakers and sub. In this case I wouldn't really be sure which amp to go for and why
  • Purchase an external DAC
  • Start using some software based mixing

 

Now I'm not really sure if I'm on the right track with the above three options and if i was, which particular products I should buy. There are probably options I've missed entirely. So advice that you guys could give me on how I should go about improving my set up would be greatly appreciated. Budget would probably be around 2-3k but I'd only want to spend money if the result was a noticeably large improvement.

 

Thanks in advance.

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You've touched on all good points......but you won't be able to add a power amp into the system with the Yamaha AVR as it does not have Pre ins or outs. Sorry to say it looks like for an improvement, you'll need to open your wallet again. I'd start with a Pre/pro system consisting of a well powered multichannel amplifier. There's affordable options from Emotiva, Rotel and a few others. Home theater preamps aren't the cheapest, but some contain excellent on board DACs or allow for analog pass through from outboard DACs.

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Any particular examples you would recommend?

 

Wherever you purchased those would be an excellent place to start on the upgrade path. Usually(not always) the dealer that sells something like those Dali's will know best what they like as far as amplification. You could also give the importer a call and they would be happy to steer you in the right direction at least as a starting point.

 

Your instinct about the amp is correct in thinking it might not be up to running those to their potential. The Dac section is not hot in that either so that would definitely be the first place I'd start.

David

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I'm getting the feeling my amp is grossly under-powered considering the size of my front speakers and sub.

 

I doubt that output power is part of your problem. Your 90 WPC Yamaha should be more than up to the task of driving the Dalis to very high listening volume - they're among the more sensitive floor standers with a 91 db SPL at the standard 1 meter / 2.83 volts input. With a nominal impedance of 6 ohms and nothing exotic in the drivers or X-over, they should be easy loads for the amp to drive. Your receiver seriously limits your ultimate sound quality. I bought a more powerful Yamaha AV receiver 5 or 6 years ago for my first "good" HT system. Although it's fine for TV and movies, it's no more than a basic audio unit that sounds exactly as you describe for stereo listening: "pretty flat". I've never heard your speakers, but other Dalis I've heard were pretty good and a Stereophile reviewer praised the Dali line for clarity, imaging and neutrality in a review of one of their smaller towers.

 

The DAC chips in your Yamaha (Burr-Brown 24/192) are capable of better sound quality than the rest of the unit, and you do have line-level stereo outputs if you want to add a better quality power amp (which is not the way I'd go). I'm not clear on how you're set up or why. You seem to be describing a coax digital connection between your sound card and your receiver, which bypasses the DACs in your sound card (AKM AK4396VFs, also OK if not great). If I understand you correctly, you're running a digital signal from your sound card to the onboard DAC in your receiver. As your receiver has digital inputs and you don't need a sound card to drive it, I'm assuming that your PC has no digital audio output. If it does, just connect that directly to the Yamaha - bypassing the sound card may well improve SQ. Or you might prefer the SQ using the audio outputs from your sound card into the line level inputs on your receiver.

 

Your front end may also have something to do with the problem. All PCs are not equal for audio, and your choice & setup of player software may also be affecting SQ. There are many threads on this forum about problems and solutions with PC design and setup. Shut down extraneous programs and processes. If your PC is set up for gaming or other use with high power and cooling demands, reconfigure it for low power consumption / dissipation. Your source player and files are critical to great SQ - your output can only be as good as your input. If you're running Foobar, JRiver or similar, you should be OK as long as there's nothing weird in your settings (e.g. sampling rate, transcoding). Set any digital volume controls in your chain at the optimum level, which varies from program to program but is generally at or close to maximum. Your source files also have to be good to produce good SQ - basic mp3s won't get you where you want to be.

 

If any of the above gets you better sound, great! But if you're still not where you want to be, my only suggestion is to assemble a high quality 2-ch audio system for critical listening. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear - you'll waste a lot of money trying (and really anger the pig). So analyze your entire chain from PC to speakers and make sure you've optimized everything you can. If you still want more, you'll need to build a dedicated audio system, and the likely offenders are the PC setup, the DAC and/or the amp. Consider a NuForce DDA-100 or similar, as it's "only" $500 and should be readily resellable. If you're using your receiver and speaker setup for HT, you can still drive the Dalis with a second amp for audio listening.

 

PS: Be sure you've got clean power and use short, decent interconnects kept away from magnetic and RF interference.

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Any particular examples you would recommend?

 

It all depends on your video processing and mutlichannel use.....I'm assuming that this system is also the core of a modest home theater? Room size and speaker placement can also be a factor. Care to elaborate a bit more on your setup?

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The reason I'm using that sound card is because I used to have a PC 5.1 system that directly took analog inputs and the sound card greatly increased the multi-channel processing. I still use it via the coax connection into my amp for DDL so I can get true 5.1 for games+movies.

 

In terms of using my amp for video processing, I've currently got a TV a PS3 and an XBOX plugged into it. I could, if required, run the PS3 and XBOX directly into my TV then run a S/PDIF connection from my TV into the amp for sound from the consoles. That's all in terms of video processing requirements as I run my PC directly into the TV.

 

When it comes to multi-channel use, I've invested in 5.1 speakers so I wouldn't want to go down the route of a stereo amp. I also like having the option of watching movies and playing games with proper 5.1 audio.

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One item I haven't seen mentioned- you said that the sound is "flat"...have you run the YPAO room EQ process on your Yamaha? A lot of times the largest gain can be realized just by repositioning your loudspeakers and using room EQ. I'm in agreement with the others- your Dali's aren't necessarily power hungry, and if you're crossing over to a subwoofer then that places even less of a load on your receiver's amps.

 

A frequently recommended book for setup of speakers is Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound". I haven't read it, but it is mentioned quite often around here. Also as mayhem suggested, there aren't many details about the layout of your room, where speakers are positioned, etc.

 

I would leave the receiver as your main control point i.e. keep your runs of HDMI/whatever cables into it, as your receiver can do the proper processing/upmixing of your content for games and movies. I might start by investigating your room layout and consider running the YPAO process on your Yamaha. I believe that products with Audyssey XT32 technology (primarily in receivers by Onkyo, Denon, etc) are considered among the best for room EQ in your price range, but I wouldn't go jumping off to buy something else without trying what you already have.

Office: iPod classic/iPad -> Shure SE425 IEM Home: Oppo BDP-83/Synology DS211j -> Integra DTR-7.8 -> Revel speakers

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I doubt that output power is part of your problem. Your 90 WPC Yamaha should be more than up to the task of driving the Dalis to very high listening volume . . .

 

actually, i think that the receiver is definitely the problem. the output of the receiver is 90wpc with only 2 channels driven -- it will be much less than that with 5 channels driven.

 

if you've spent $6k on your system, but only spent ~$650 on a receiver, you have a definite system mis-match. a receiver in this price range is not designed to provide a listener with a high-end audio experience. just so you know, the rx-vxxx series of receivers is yamaha's budget line.

 

if you want to stick with yamaha, you need to go to the aventage line of receivers. i would go at least with the rx-a2030 to get something that would have the "umph" in the power amp section.

(1) holo audio red (hqp naa) > chord dave > luxman cl-38uc/mq-88uc > kef reference 1
(2) simaudio moon mind 2 > chord qutest > luxman sq-n150 > monitor audio gold gx100
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Jcn3 is correct.....the Yammy is grossly underpowered for the system even with two channels driven given dynamic peaks in both music and movies.

 

If you don't require HDMI switching through the system, but instead can use the TV instead and feed those audio outs via SPDiF, then there's a whole host of excellent legacy AVR's and processors available on Audiogon and similiar that are very affordable.

 

Here's some examples

 

Rotel RSP-1098 7.1 Surround Sound Processor w/TFT Display | Processors | Ann Arbor, Michigan 48103 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

ROTEL 1095 FIVE CHANNEL POWER AMP, 200 WATTS | Multi ch | Teaneck, New Jersey 07666 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

There's others to look at as well.

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If you aren't too strapped for cash, the Wyred4Sound multi-channel amps are very high quality, very powerful and considering all pretty affordable. You will need something for a pre-amp. One alternative might be a home theater PC with multi-channel sound card feeding a Wyred4Sound multi-channel amp.

 

Alternatively, on Audiogon or often your local craigslist look for good Denon units. Some are quite powerful, good quality, and feature Audyssee room correction.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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actually, i think that the receiver is definitely the problem. the output of the receiver is 90wpc with only 2 channels driven -- it will be much less than that with 5 channels driven.

 

But the OP states that his main concern is over 2 channel audio, not HT. At 90 WPC 20-20k into speakers that efficient, a lack of power isn't causing suboptimal sound quality. I agree completely that the receiver in question is part of the problem, but that's because it's simply not designed for high quality audio playback - a good integrated amp with 90 WPC would do the job for him. What I said is that the receiver "...should be more than up to the task of driving the Dalis to very high listening volume", not that it would sound great at that volume.

 

Buying an HT receiver for pure audio use is like buying a 454 Suburban to enter Le Mans - it's got the horsepower but nothing else. My advice to him is clear and consistent with your approach: "If any of [the tweaks I suggest] above gets you better sound, great! But if you're still not where you want to be, my only suggestion is to assemble a high quality 2-ch audio system for critical listening."

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If the receiver had pre-outs it would have been easy to add an integrated 2 channel amp with HT bypass for stereo listening. Some options are depending on your budget is to get a better AVR in the 1k or better range. Nad, Marantz, anthem, arcam are some musical options. even some of the newer Pioneer avrs are really good with music. But if you are mostly interested in music, I would get a used receiver with pre outs and add an integrated amp with HT bypass. Like other members mentioned you can get some decent used stuff.

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I would get a receiver with room correction software, something like the Marantz SR5007. It has Audyssey room correction software, 100 wpc continuous, pre-outs and HDMI for your gaming systems. The room correction software will almost certainly cure the "flat sound" issue. It's 849 msrp but Amazon has it for 759 since the product line has been upgraded(to SR5008). Your movies and gaming will sound incredible and your 2.1 sound will also sound great. And, no, I don't work for Marantz. I also thought of the Anthem MRX 300 which has ARC room correction but it costs 999 msrp and is less wattage than the Marantz.

 

Esau

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I would keep the Yamaha as is for the remainder of the surround system, the rears mainly and front center.

 

For the fronts L&R and the .1, invest in a 2Ch regular Pre/Pro or integrated "hi-fi" amplifier. You can funnel the surround stuff easy enough to the new amp and you'd gain accuracy of the speech and important spatial effects for movies.

 

My only worry with such a system is an easy way for noise to creep in with so many connections.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Shax, when you say things sound flat. Can you better describe what you mean by that. Can you also let us know what has brought you to this realization, did you hear another system and like that sound...and if so.... what did you like about that system? You need to give us a little more reason as to what you're not liking in order for me to give you a good suggestion on what is your best option.

 

My first thought is the synergy between the Yamaha and Dali's may not be quite right. I have seen a lot of pairings with NAD and Dali. NAD and Yamaha definitely have different sound to them. So that may be somewhere to start.

 

However, if you can better explain what you really don't like about them, we can definitely help point you in the right direction.

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I'm 99% sure that the RX-V673 has 2 ch line level outputs. In fact, as I recall, it has 2 pairs.

According to the spec it only has pre-out for subwoofer.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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According to the spec it only has pre-out for subwoofer.

Here's the rear of the unit from the Yamaha website. As manufacturers often use the same image for multiple products in a line, I checked on a few other sites and found the exact same image on all. And I looked at one of these as a possible upgrade for the second HT system I cobbled up with the still-functioning rejects from our HT setup.

 

The two pairs of RCA jacks at bottom center are independent line level stereo outs, one pair labeled "audio out" and the other "zone 2 out". The descriptive literature makes much of being able to run 2 separate 2 ch audio "zones" and these are the source feeds. I don't know if they originate before or after the front end controls on the receiver, though. If they're fixed level, they can't be used to drive power amps directly with no input attenuation. So the OP could borrow a better integrated amp and insert it between these outputs and his main speakers to see if that improves the SQ to his ears. I'm not wildly optimistic that his receiver's power amp stage is the sole constraint on achieving the quality he seeks, but it's worth a try.

 

91SaXld8FNL._SL1500_.jpg

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Unless they alter level at the same time as the main speaker outputs they can't be used to integrate a 2 channel amplifier along side multi-channel. Even with an integrated amplifier you would have to balance the "front" integrated amplifier with the rear and center channels every time you altered the volume - which isnt practical to do. Unless the Reciever has proper / dedicated preamp outputs you can't attach it to a separate amplifier and expect it to work in any sensible way.

 

I don't disagree with you that simply adding another amplifier is unlikely to provide any real improvement. A better receiver (Nad, Rotel, Arcam and Marantz would be a first port of call for me) is likely to be needed; or alternatively a DAC plus stereo integrated amplifier (but that then makes integrating HT difficult without also upgrading the reciever).

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Unless they alter level at the same time as the main speaker outputs they can't be used to integrate a 2 channel amplifier along side multi-channel.

I don't think that's the reason they include 2 ch line-level outputs. It's to enable pure stereo listening, either for better quality audio-only programming or to enable the audio portion of a video production in another room. I can't imagine that they intend use of an outboard power amp for the outside front HT channels to be used along with center and side/rear.

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Shax, you have not mentioned much that would give an idea of your room, speaker placement, room treatment, etc. Before you spend money on new equipment, it may be worth to try and optimize the room. You say the sound is "flat." Could it be that there is too much sound absorption? Or alternatively, could it be that the soundstage is collapsed due to first reflections and/or poor speaker and listening chair placement? The best equipment won't give you satisfactory results if the room is not adequate.

 

Best regards,

 

Guido F.

For my system details, please see my profile. Thank you.

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