Cat 5 or 6 Ethernet

[sandyk]

To the Cat 7 and possibility of ground problems which Chris mentioned. I did some probing around and indeed he has a very valid point. I found that there was ground continuity between the shield at the router end of my Cat 7 cable, and the shield of my USB going into the DAC. This is troublesome in theory, as it could bring noise from the router to the DAC, and could cause a ground loop between the DAC, Server and router. I addressed it by insulating the plug at the server end with some thin kapton tape, this way, the Cat 7 shield is only temrinated at the router end, and the ground continuity is broken.

Hi Barrows

The $64 question of course, is did you notice any audible improvement after doing this ?

Regards

Alex

[barrows]

Hi Barrows

The $64 question of course, is did you notice any audible improvement after doing this ?

Regards

Alex

 

Things in my system are in a flux state right now: I have different speaker cables in, and a new configuration in my power conditioner, so there is no chance to be able to evaluate anything. I did confirm that the ground continuity between Ethernet cable, router end, and USB cable is now broken. The system is sounding different every hour.

[ted_b]

Barrows, can you tell us a little more about the kapton tape fix? I, too, have posted about CAt7 and it's possible double-edged sword (but haven't heard any hum per se). I am grateful that someone like you has confirmed, more than in theory, that grounding could be an issue with the otherwise great CAT7 ethernet choice.

 

Also, I own an AR RLI-1 isolator and completely concur with Priaptor's summation. The noise floor was not appreciably lowered per se (my system seems to have a very black background before and after) but clarity of soundstage improved quite substantially (which obviously meant a reduction of the noise floor, but manifested much more musically ).

 

Acousence is a wonderful German hirez recording label, and Ralf Koschnicke leads that company. He has stumbled upon ethernet noise and galvanic isolation issues, and Acousence has come up with their own isolator, named GISO, that deals with both filtering and breaking the ground issues. It requires addtional cabling cuz it simply is placed in-line. I haven an emaill into Ralf (haven't chatted with him in a long time) to see if I can get one to listen to.

GISO

 

It's somewhat of a pain in the ass to now realize that LANs and ethernet cabling, once though to be immune to audio sq issues due to its sophisticated packet-sending capabilities...is now a member of the "everything matters" club. Damn!

[junker]

If it's going to get into this voodoo, I'm just going to go 802.11ac...

[junker]

So, far in over a billion packets I haven't seen any transmission errors using a mix of Cat 7 patch cords & 5e internal:

 

[ted_b]

So, far in over a billion packets I haven't seen any transmission errors using a mix of Cat 7 patch cords & 5e internal:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6446[/ATTACH]

 

That's a good stat, but what does it mean? I don't think we are concerned about transmission errors. That seems to be a measure that doesn't jive with our findings; that is, that noise and other issues have something to do with ethernet cable sq. Either that or we are all, once again, susceptible to placebo or expectation bias of the worst kind. Me? I am not discounting anything.

[The Computer Audiophile]

So, far in over a billion packets I haven't seen any transmission errors using a mix of Cat 7 patch cords & 5e internal:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6446[/ATTACH]

 

Hi Junker - Are you certain Apple's built-in network utility is the best tool for the job?

 

i don't think this discussion has much to do with errors. More importantly is the possible noise passed to the audio components.

[barrows]

Ted: The shields of cat 7 cabling terminate to the metal shell of the connectors on either end. I had not even considered the fact that this could make a ground connection between components (in my case between router and server, and then from the server ground through the USB ground to the USB interface), thanks Chris for pointing this out. For the record I never had any hum, or audible noises at all, but the potential for inaudible loops causing problems was there. I like having a shielded cable run, but I wan to to break the loop. So I insulated the metal plug of the cat 7 cable at the server end with kapton tape, as long as the tape is thin enough it does not interfere with the plug inserting to the server, and it breaks the loop, leaving the shields floating at the server end, and terminated at the router end.

Yes, all I am talking about is the possibility of the Ethernet cable broadcasting (acting as an antenna) RF noise in the vicinity of the audio systems, high frequency signals like this can easily travel through the air. By using cat 7 (which is shielded cable) there is less of a chance for the RF to leak, become airborne, and mix with analog signals in components. Certainly I have no concern for data errors with Ethernet.

[ted_b]

Thanks Barrows. So it's simply wrapping the external metal connector shell...nice, thanks. My buddy has some 1/4" kapton tape. Perfect. (Was worried it was more surgical than that)

 

The only reason I was aware of this ground issue on STP cabling was that I had much earlier in my life used the Denon Link for SACD connection to an AVR, and my "Denon Link" ethernet cabling was STP. The ground noise was significant; with normal UTP...dead silence.

[junker]

Wouldn't "noise" enough to cause data corruption be revealed by this metric?

 

0 / 1,500,000,000 Tx/Rx packets = 0.000000000%

 

How is noise affecting anything if it is not enough to corrupt a single packet header? And even if there was enough noise to cause occasional corruption, the packet is resent and retested vs. its checksum.

 

If it isn't causing data corruption then how exactly is it negatively affecting the sound, and exactly by what mechanism?? It isn't like it transmits 5v or a signal that is being directly amplified.

 

Or is the argument that it is unknowable and not quantifiable?

 

If the argument is this, then it is also easy to test... Play a song from your NAS, let it load into memory and play in say A+, and while playing insert and remove your ethernet connection. Then do an honest evaluation and gut check to see if anything is changing subjectively. You can even pause and crank the volume.

 

I would love to see someone here document with a single YouTube video showing this ground loop effect with digital audio playback.

 

Hi Junker - Are you certain Apple's built-in network utility is the best tool for the job?

 

i don't think this discussion has much to do with errors. More importantly is the possible noise passed to the audio components.

[barrows]

Junker: No one here is suggesting there is any data corruption. The potential problem is noise leakage from the Ethernet cable, this is airborne RF in proximity to the audio system. Noise like this has the potential to couple into the audio system in various ways, and cause IM type distortions in the analog realm. The point I am making about shielded Ethernet cable being a good idea, is that it will reduce the amount of RF getting broadcast into the air in the vicinity of the audio system.

[junker]

I completely agree about the benefits of using shielded cabling.

 

I even moved all of my digital gear (NAS, modem, router, power cords, etc) except computer to the other side of my place in a "network" closet just to get it away from everything that could be adversely affected by that gear via radiated RF as well as contamination of that AC circuit.

[wdw]

Barrows, can you tell us a little more about the kapton tape fix? I, too, have posted about CAt7 and it's possible double-edged sword (but haven't heard any hum per se). I am grateful that someone like you has confirmed, more than in theory, that grounding could be an issue with the otherwise great CAT7 ethernet choice.

 

Also, I own an AR RLI-1 isolator and completely concur with Priaptor's summation. The noise floor was not appreciably lowered per se (my system seems to have a very black background before and after) but clarity of soundstage improved quite substantially (which obviously meant a reduction of the noise floor, but manifested much more musically ).

 

Acousence is a wonderful German hirez recording label, and Ralf Koschnicke leads that company. He has stumbled upon ethernet noise and galvanic isolation issues, and Acousence has come up with their own isolator, named GISO, that deals with both filtering and breaking the ground issues. It requires addtional cabling cuz it simply is placed in-line. I haven an emaill into Ralf (haven't chatted with him in a long time) to see if I can get one to listen to.

GISO

 

It's somewhat of a pain in the ass to now realize that LANs and ethernet cabling, once though to be immune to audio sq issues due to its sophisticated packet-sending capabilities...is now a member of the "everything matters" club. Damn!

 

My interest in moving to a wired Ethernet was based on the untested assumption that the active wifi antenna within my music server was a potential negative to the sound quality but if the network cabling presents a new set of liabilities, I'm stumped. Certainly don't want to play the cable game with Ethernet cabling, Nordost and their delightful products are a curse to my finances already.

Cheers

WDW

[barrows]

My interest in moving to a wired Ethernet was based on the untested assumption that the active wifi antenna within my music server was a potential negative to the sound quality but if the network cabling presents a new set of liabilities, I'm stumped. Certainly don't want to play the cable game with Ethernet cabling, Nordost and their delightful products are a curse to my finances already.

Cheers

WDW

 

Haha, no worries, Nordost does offer any Ethernet cables! Anyway, shielded cat 7 is not expensive… Just stay away from any ridiculously priced "audiophile" Ethernet cables.

[wdw]

Haha, no worries, Nordost does offer any Ethernet cables! Anyway, shielded cat 7 is not expensive… Just stay away from any ridiculously priced "audiophile" Ethernet cables.

Was at my local hifi hut this week and was told they are planning just that...Nordost Ethernet....we're not safe. ;-)

WDW

[junker]

IMO any cable cable that goes down this route has illegitimimized themselves and is dead to me as a consumer.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wouldn't "noise" enough to cause data corruption be revealed by this metric?

 

0 / 1,500,000,000 Tx/Rx packets = 0.000000000%

 

How is noise affecting anything if it is not enough to corrupt a single packet header? And even if there was enough noise to cause occasional corruption, the packet is resent and retested vs. its checksum.

 

If it isn't causing data corruption then how exactly is it negatively affecting the sound, and exactly by what mechanism?? It isn't like it transmits 5v or a signal that is being directly amplified.

 

Or is the argument that it is unknowable and not quantifiable?

 

If the argument is this, then it is also easy to test... Play a song from your NAS, let it load into memory and play in say A+, and while playing insert and remove your ethernet connection. Then do an honest evaluation and gut check to see if anything is changing subjectively. You can even pause and crank the volume.

 

I would love to see someone here document with a single YouTube video showing this ground loop effect with digital audio playback.

Again, were not worried about packet loss or data corruption. The best audio engineer I know built a custom measuring device that detected noise on the AES wire going into a DAC when the Ethernet cable was connected to the PC housing the AES output card. There is noise getting through to DACs over Ethernet. It's measurable. This noise has nothing to do with data packets. It's similar to a computer injecting noise into an audio system. None of the packets are corrupted but it's certainly audible. High pitch squealing is a hallmark of some computers that inject noise into audio systems.

[barrows]

IMO any cable cable that goes down this route has illegitimimized themselves and is dead to me as a consumer.

 

That seems a little extreme to me? Are you aware of Nordost's non-audio cable business in medical tech and aerospace?

[junker]

Doesn't matter. They lose credibility, and trust with me and that is all that matters as a consumer.

 

The last thing I want to do is support a company who sells $1500 ethernet cables made in China that sound no better than an off-the-shelf $7 Cat7 cable from Amazon.

 

Just saw a guy today who regretted buying his AQ Diamond. The cheap packaging, suspect build quality and lack of decent documentation caused him to question that it might have been a counterfeit. But it came from an Authorized dealer.

[junker]

Yes understood. Clearly understood. And I still do not agree.

 

Following your last post I proposed a test that doesn't require an EE or specialized test equipment and has nothing to do with any packet transmission errors.

 

Simply load a track over ethernet (ie. from you NAS) to your player (i.e. A+) that plays from memory. Then press play. Then press pause. Then crank your amp. And plug and unplug your ethernet cable until your heart is content. Listen for any noise. Any whatsoever... I just tested it and my system is dead silent with the amp cranked up to about 100w output. And this is with a MB/s background internet transfer going on concurrently. A "stress test" if there ever was one.

 

The result: dead silent with the ethernet cable either connected or disconnected. I encourage anyone to test this the same exact way. Is this not illustrative, or would this not reveal any "ground loop issues"?

 

And honestly if this truly bore out at being worthy of concern, it would just push me toward using 802.11ac (as you suggested when you picked up your Gen. 6 Airport Extreme) with its theoretical 1.3Gbit/s data rate and completely decouple the electrical ethernet network connection to my media server.

 

Again, were not worried about packet loss or data corruption. The best audio engineer I know built a custom measuring device that detected noise on the AES wire going into a DAC when the Ethernet cable was connected to the PC housing the AES output card. There is noise getting through to DACs over Ethernet. It's measurable. This noise has nothing to do with data packets. It's similar to a computer injecting noise into an audio system. None of the packets are corrupted but it's certainly audible. High pitch squealing is a hallmark of some computers that inject noise into audio systems.

[barrows]

"The last thing I want to do is support a company who sells $1500 ethernet cables made in China that sound no better than an off-the-shelf $7 Cat7 cable from Amazon."

 

Agreed! I do not suspect we will see the above from Nordost. If they offer Ethernet wiring at that high a price, it will be made in the US, by them, not a re-branded stock product.

[Priaptor]

I know I am in the minority here and have a somewhat contrary point of view from many I respect on these forums, but my home came pre-wired with CAT5e, is impossible to change unless I want to break through walls (crazy as I am, this I am not doing) and have created an "isolated" secondary network just for my listening room using CAT6 patch cords.

 

As I have posted elswhere, the best "upgrade" to my network has been Acoustic Revive's RLI-1, which actually limits one's network to 10MBs from a Gigabit 100Mbs. I guess my question is what are we trying to accomplish by "upgrading" our respective networks to CAT6 or 7? With video where bandwidth capabilities are clearly an issue, such is not the case with audio at this time. One reason the RLI-1 makes sense to me is that it is the final common pathway to what matters most, namely what is actually getting to one's server. Is the RLI-1 the best product there is, you judge, I just bring the point up to illustrate my logic.

 

I give my own perspective only to ask what we are trying to accomplish with these "better networks" if distance is not an issue (which these new copper designs improve) and if our only concern is audio?

 

Also, as I have said previously, I would love to see some entrepreneurial type release an "audiophile switch" incorporating RLI-1 into their ports as well as linear power supplies, etc.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Yes understood. Clearly understood. And I still do not agree.

 

Following your last post I proposed a test that doesn't require an EE or specialized test equipment and has nothing to do with any packet transmission errors.

 

Simply load a track over ethernet (ie. from you NAS) to your player (i.e. A+) that plays from memory. Then press play. Then press pause. Then crank your amp. And plug and unplug your ethernet cable until your heart is content. Listen for any noise. Any whatsoever... I just tested it and my system is dead silent with the amp cranked up to about 100w output. And this is with a MB/s background internet transfer going on concurrently. A "stress test" if there ever was one.

 

The result: dead silent with the ethernet cable either connected or disconnected. I encourage anyone to test this the same exact way. Is this not illustrative, or would this not reveal any "ground loop issues"?

 

And honestly if this truly bore out at being worthy of concern, it would just push me toward using 802.11ac (as you suggested when you picked up your Gen. 6 Airport Extreme) with its theoretical 1.3Gbit/s data rate and completely decouple the electrical ethernet network connection to my media server.

Hi Junker - It's great to read you don't hear any issues in your system. Are you using shielded Ethernet cables?

[junker]

Yes sir. I've had great luck with pure Cat7 and with mixing Cat 5e and 7 in my project last week. I used the existing Cat5e that is built in to my place, wired a female keystone in my network closet and moved all networking gear from the vicinity of the stereo back to that closet.

 

Using the 5e that is built-in to my place, and mixed with Cat 7 patch cords from the Drobo 5N NAS to the new Gen. 6 Airport Extreme, from the cable modem to the WAN port on the AE, from the AE to the female keystone, and then on the living room side from the wall jack to the MacMini.

 

I really love how I can buy this in just the right size and in white. Love the nice and heavy Cat 7. And I really do agree with you that the shielding could have benefits.

 

In moving everything out of the living area not only is the installation clean with less noise pollutions from the NAS, there has to be less RF and electrical noise near my stereo. The only things nearby at this point would be my Sony XBR display and the MacMini, and maybe several CF recessed lights but pretty sure those are on different circuits.

 

Prior to this relocation, I had everything connected via Cat7 locally from the cable modem onwards. In both cases I get about 70-80 MB/s (theoretical limit is 125MB/s but I am using 5 red drives and there are a lot of parity calcs happening), no issues with Rx errors, or ground loop noises, and I'm very very happy. I just wanted to let everyone know that I personally have not had any issues with Cables2Go or Rosewill Cat 7, or with mixing Cat 7 w/ 5e. Definitely a more substantial cable. Really like using it especially in exposed areas, or where shielding could have benefits.

 

Later in the year I might try a new Mac Pro, and maybe play with 802.11ac but that would probably mean bringing out the network gear back nearer to the listening area and this is something I'd probably rather not do if possible.

 

And regarding bandwidth, I would certainly not want to cripple my bandwidth to 10mb/s. I believe this can just be done in the network settings without buying more "audiophile grade" stuff. My DSD ISOs, or anything that is coming from the iTunes library on the NAS really needs that bandwidth. Typically the ISOs are 1-3 GB and the 80MB/s is nice for a gigabit NAS IMO. And I get my full >3MB/s with a 25Mb/s connection. Wish I had FiOS in my area though...

 

[Guidof]

Personally, I found that Audioquest Cinnamon Cat 7 sounds better than any Cat 5 or 6 that I tried. But I'm only using a short run between a D-Link wireless bridge and my Squeezebox Touch.

 

Guido F.