NAS through ethernet worse than external HDD, even with pre-cached, how?

[nununo]

Hi,

 

Everywhere I read people's testimonies that music streamed through ethernet from a NAS sounds dull compared to playing it directly from an external HDD. Even when the player pre-loads the whole song to memory like Audirvana does.

 

How can this be?

 

Are there any plausible explanations for this?

 

I'm building a new system and it would be nice to know if this is simply a myth or if there's some rational behind it and if someone has done some proper comparison tests.

 

Thanks in advance,

Nuno

[firedog]

I haven't found this to be true at all. In fact I have better results from a NAS.

[TJHUB]

The real answer is that the sound quality differs from drive to drive (enclosure, interface, cable), and network to network (cables, switches, NAS box, and of course drives again). Either can have superior sound quality over the other.

[jhwalker]

Hi,

 

Everywhere I read people's testimonies that music streamed through ethernet from a NAS sounds dull compared to playing it directly from an external HDD. Even when the player pre-loads the whole song to memory like Audirvana does.

 

How can this be?

 

Are there any plausible explanations for this?

 

I'm building a new system and it would be nice to know if this is simply a myth or if there's some rational behind it and if someone has done some proper comparison tests.

 

Thanks in advance,

Nuno

 

Audirvana reads the file, bit-for-bit, converts it completely to PCM (or whatever), and stores it in memory before it actually sends it to the DAC - so how can it make any possible difference as to the original source of the file (NAS, USB / firewire external drive, or even 5-1/4" floppy, for that matter)? Of course, others on this site will tell you the exact opposite (i.e., that everything matters, including the original storage media) - so what do I know?

[Audio_ELF]

Are there any plausible explanations for this?

No. There's no plausible explanation.

 

The only probable issue is an SMPS in the NAS affecting sound quality because of noise being fed back into the mains.

 

Eloise

[nununo]

@Audio_ELF can you better explain what you mean? I'm very lame in this stuff.

 

If I understood correctly, the SMPS injecting noise in the electric circuit, right? What if my NAS is connected to the normal electric circuit while my hifi components are all connected to a dedicated shielded and filtered circuit?

 

Thanks,

Nuno

[Audio_ELF]

@Audio_ELF can you better explain what you mean? I'm very lame in this stuff.

 

If I understood correctly, the SMPS injecting noise in the electric circuit, right? What if my NAS is connected to the normal electric circuit while my hifi components are all connected to a dedicated shielded and filtered circuit?

Even if you use a dedicated circuit, then everything is still connected together back at the fusebox / consumer unit.

 

Eloise

[nununo]

So the problem is to have a NAS connected to the electrical system regardless of the fact that the music is actually coming from there?

[Audio_ELF]

So the problem is to have a NAS connected to the electrical system regardless of the fact that the music is actually coming from there?

Thats the one explanation...

 

I'm trying not to suggest this is a fact.

[nununo]

understood

[Great Gig]

Everywhere I read people's testimonies that music streamed through ethernet from a NAS sounds dull compared to playing it directly from an external HDD.

There's only one way to be sure, try it yourself and see which you prefer?

 

I tend not to believe anything I read until I try it myself, I get the ideas from the forums then check those ideas out and choose what works for me. I have tried both, but a lot depends on your individual system? A USB hard drive and a USB fed DAC on the same bus sounds worse than a NAS in my system. However, a hard drive on a long SATA cable plugged directly into the motherboard, but powered independently to the server sounds pretty good, but does it sound better than a well set up and clean powered NAS - well to me I struggle to detect a difference and they sound the same.

 

I'm now using a NAS again having tried just about everything - it sounds good, its less hassle and keeps everything neat and tidy. So to answer your question, in my system it definitely does not sound dull, or I wouldn't use it. However, there is no guarantee that the same would apply in your system?

[junker]

Playing from my Drobo 5N via Cat7 cable to my router sounds just fine since A+ plays from memory. No problems at all.

[nununo]

@Tim, thanks, that makes sense. I definitely must try it by myself. I intend to find a Thunderbolt HDD and try to use the USB only for the DAC. But this opens new questions for me:

 

1. How to connect the mouse and the keyboard to the MacMini if I'm not using USB? Isn't Bluetooth a source of noise also? I was considering turning Bluetooth off and connect both the keyboard and the mouse through USB;

 

2. I have a Synology. How do I know its power is clean? And if now, how do I make it clean?

 

@Junker, you're using Cat7. One question for you:

 

3. I'm wiring my network with Cat6. Cat6 should be enough, right? I hear Cat7 can be worse if not properly setup and the wires are less easy to bend.

 

Thank you all,

Nuno

[Easterman]

Hi,

 

Everywhere I read people's testimonies that music streamed through ethernet from a NAS sounds dull compared to playing it directly from an external HDD. Even when the player pre-loads the whole song to memory like Audirvana does.

 

How can this be?

 

Are there any plausible explanations for this?

 

I'm building a new system and it would be nice to know if this is simply a myth or if there's some rational behind it and if someone has done some proper comparison tests.

 

Thanks in advance,

Nuno

Hi Nuno,

I was pretty baffled myself when i did the experiment, to copy the file onto an internal sata drive in my mac pro, vs playing from my nas via ethernet. No doubt for me... I went out and purchased 2 x 2tb drive for internally storing music, with 14 gb ram Jriver and JPlay it sounds fantastic via m2tech Vaughan. Dependent on your equipment i guess, im sure in years to come we will have understood exachtly when bits are bits and why the same bits stored elsewhere can sound different. For now i just experiment, and my normally healthy sceptisimn, have gotten a place on the shelf for now, and accept that some combinations work better for me ;-)

all the best

[Great Gig]

@Tim, thanks, that makes sense. I definitely must try it by myself. I intend to find a Thunderbolt HDD and try to use the USB only for the DAC. But this opens new questions for me:

1. How to connect the mouse and the keyboard to the MacMini if I'm not using USB? Isn't Bluetooth a source of noise also? I was considering turning Bluetooth off and connect both the keyboard and the mouse through USB;

2. I have a Synology. How do I know its power is clean? And if now, how do I make it clean?

Nuno,

I have no experience of Mac so cannot comment, but I run my server headless and control it via the Gizmo JRiver app, it has nothing connected to it apart from the DAC via USB and an Ethernet cable, no mouse, keyboard or monitor. Any admin of the server is via remote desktop. You can power a NAS via a linear PSU and keep it on a separate network, but again you would have to try and test to see if it was worth the effort. I personally think cat7 is overkill and totally unnecessary for an audio based network - YMMV.

 

[junker]

@Junker, you're using Cat7. One question for you:

 

3. I'm wiring my network with Cat 6. Cat6 should be enough, right? I hear Cat7 can be worse if not properly setup and the wires are less easy to bend

 

I personally think cat7 is overkill and totally unnecessary for an audio based network - YMMV.

 

Oh yeah Cat 7 is definitely overkill. Good for 10 Gigabit networks over 500m. Just has better shielding mostly... Cat6 should be great.

 

Class F cable (or, unofficially, Category 7 cable) is a cable standard for Ethernet and other interconnect technologies that can be made to be backward compatible with Class D and Class E. Class F features even more strict specifications for crosstalk and system noise than Class E. To achieve this, shielding has been added for individual wire pairs and the cable as a whole. Besides the foil shield, the twisting of the pairs and number of turns per unit length increases RF shielding and protects from crosstalk. Class F is recognized for all the country organizations members of ISO.

 

I wanted to use short runs from the router to the NAS and from the router to the MacMini so I ordered just the right lengths in white from Amazon. The cost difference for the patch cables wasn't much more so I just went for it. Nice and thick with good connectors too.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=cat7+cable

 

With AQ offering Diamond Cat7 cables for $1200 for 1.5m (LOL!) I was good with $5 cords.

 

http://www.thecableco.com/Product/RJ-E-Diamond-ethernet

[junker]

1. How to connect the mouse and the keyboard to the MacMini if I'm not using USB? Isn't Bluetooth a source of noise also? I was considering turning Bluetooth off and connect both the keyboard and the mouse through USB;

 

2. I have a Synology. How do I know its power is clean? And if now, how do I make it clean?

 

Sure the BT radio will generate some noise, but it is an necessary evil for me. I have the BT keyboard and trackpad on my coffee table and it is pretty slick. No way I'm running cords everywhere to a table. Also, USB devices with a USB DAC can be a problem as well.

 

The Drobo has been super reliable for me. It has some battery in it to help with putting the RAID in a safe state should there be a power failure. No idea if it is also a conditioner or battery source. The PS is external. I'd prefer to keep the router, NAS, modem, and computer (switching power supplies and digital products) on a separate circuit than the DAC, if possible.

[baddog]

I also have a Synology NAS I use for all my music storage, previously I stored the music files locally on the Mac Mini hard drive. Any of the music players I use read the files into memory. I have not heard any difference sound wise using the NAS versus local storage. YMMV.

 

Also I personally would not worry too much in regards to whether the NAS is injecting noise into your system, for that matter your Mac Mini is also probably injecting noise into the system as well. And as to whether to use Bluetooth or not, remember there are those of the opinion that wireless should be disabled and one should only use ethernet.

 

You say you are building a new system, what is changing in the system? Just the computer? Or something else? And do you intend to use the computer daily for other uses other than audio? If not you could run headless after you set it up and control it with any number of third party programs such as Splashtop.

 

Anyway, probably no single right answer (or perhaps there is), but like everything else in life one must consider trade offs in convenience, cost, and performance to achieve one's desired outcome.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Barr

[nununo]

I built the system from the ground up. The only thing that I kept from my previous one were my speaker cables Nordost Baldur.

 

For now all my music lies in an internal HDD. I am in the process of creating an internal gigabit LAN to which I'll connect the MacMini and the NAS. Once that is done I'll replace the internal HDD with SSD. And then I'll try the NAS against an external HDD.

 

I intend to use the MacMini mostly to listen to music. It will hopefully be optimised for that. But I will also use it to stream video to my beamer. And that's it.

 

The idea of using it headless is a good one as it would be very convenient to get rid of that awful display. I'll seriously consider it. That way the only connections with the NAS would be the ethernet cable and the DAC USB cable.

 

About powering the NAS with a PSU... I don't know how to do that, but I'll definitely investigate it.

 

Thanks for all your inputs.

 

Nuno

[hifitubes]

Leaving the anxiety ridden question about SMPS noise-injection behind, IIRC playing back from a a NAS will provide a different path for the bitstream. Matt @ JRIVER states to leave 'playback from memory off' for NAS playback because it is already coming directly through memory.

 

I'm on the fence. I have one Synology unit here for all my data, video, and audio but now I need a home for a ton of high rez sitting ripped on backup external drives. I keep going back and forth between an expensive Synology DS513+ or just keeping vigilant backups and grabbing a USB 3.0 5-bay box, connect that direct to my playback machine. Otherwise I need a better switch for link aggregation and I can stream these files if need be with conversion via JRremote to locations around the house. I'd save about $1K. I do enjoy Synology's gear and the SHR and SHR-2 but just not sure if I really need it.

 

Kinda stuck here....!

 

 

I built the system from the ground up. The only thing that I kept from my previous one were my speaker cables Nordost Baldur.

 

For now all my music lies in an internal HDD. I am in the process of creating an internal gigabit LAN to which I'll connect the MacMini and the NAS. Once that is done I'll replace the internal HDD with SSD. And then I'll try the NAS against an external HDD.

 

I intend to use the MacMini mostly to listen to music. It will hopefully be optimised for that. But I will also use it to stream video to my beamer. And that's it.

 

The idea of using it headless is a good one as it would be very convenient to get rid of that awful display. I'll seriously consider it. That way the only connections with the NAS would be the ethernet cable and the DAC USB cable.

 

About powering the NAS with a PSU... I don't know how to do that, but I'll definitely investigate it.

 

Thanks for all your inputs.

 

Nuno

[baddog]

... Matt @ JRIVER states to leave 'playback from memory off' for NAS playback because it is already coming directly through memory....

 

 

I did not know this - I have been using JRMC with playback from memory enabled on my NAS, will have to give this a try.

 

Thanks.

[hifitubes]

I've been wondering if this "noise back into mains" is what is called Leakage To Ground, which some manufacturers of surge protection claim to prevent.

 

No. There's no plausible explanation.

 

The only probable issue is an SMPS in the NAS affecting sound quality because of noise being fed back into the mains.

 

Eloise

[hifitubes]

I did not know this - I have been using JRMC with playback from memory enabled on my NAS, will have to give this a try.

 

Thanks.

 

Sorry I didn't see your response...I think MAtt called it "lumpy I/O" (HDD) vs. "smooth I/O" (ethernet).

 

I'm going to experiment with adding more network streaming into the mix with the JPLAY Streamer mode as suggested to me by Ted_B. NAS>ControlPC (i7 Quad 16GB RAM # 4gHz)>directly connected via CAT7 to AudioPC(Zotac ION-based CAPS) 4GB RAM Corsair Force GT SSD 90GB.

[One and a half]

I've been wondering if this "noise back into mains" is what is called Leakage To Ground, which some manufacturers of surge protection claim to prevent.

 

Just to clarify a couple of points.

 

Leakage to ground can consist of two instances, one is a nuisance, the other more sinister.

 

The nuisance is that crud from within an electronic circuit, uses the path to ground to shunt noise away. This has the effect of appearing where you least want it, at the amplifier or DAC circuit outputs.

The sinister version of Leakage to ground is where insulation in say a cable starts to breakdown and collapse. Instead of voltage contained in the plastics, it literally starts to leak across to the path of least resistance to ground, and cause a short circuit, fuse blowing or RCD tripping.

 

Surge protection is a protection mechanism to guard against over voltage, which can wreck components. Some jerk decides to run into a pole with his car and it brings down high voltage lines on the 240/120V system and there's some drama. That's what surge protection can guard against, whether it does or not depends on how far the event occurred from your place and how much energy is released and the protection systems activating in time to stop further havoc.

 

Noise back to mains is real, don't worry, it exists. Have a look at the power supply thread, bit of discussion there on that topic.

[nununo]

I'm waiting for my dedicated circuits and gigabit lan to be in place to start doing some comparisons. Don't want to touch too many variables at the same time. One upgrade at a time.