Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

[KDinsmore]

I'll just say at this point it is a big step forward from the former iteration. I'll report back in 60 hours. 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

Hi all,

 

We wanted to give an update on the Singxer issue and its resolution. Thank you @Franatic for bringing potential issues to our attention and for graciously lending us his unit to look at. That the Singxer was deemed incompatible using I2S (specifically PCM playback per Franatic) with our new DAC was interesting to us since our I2S has been a proven implementation and works in all of the configurations we’ve used and tested it under for many years. Once we were able to begin evaluation of the Singxer, we quickly found some playback issues both with PCM and DSD. What struck us as strange was that these issues varied with different versions of our DACs, which all employ the same I2S implementation. This suggested that we needed to look closer at the Singxer. To jump to conclusions, we found an instability in the Singxer I2S output, which was then easily remedied with a bypass capacitor. Once this was done, further testing proved that all previous playback issues were resolved.

 

Hopefully this is not the case for everyone using this unit, but if it happens, at least now the cause and solution is known. 

[Franatic]

Hi Tony, E J,

Great job finding the PCM playback issue. I am very grateful for this first class customer support. I can let Singxer know of their issue if you want me to. However, I will ask your advice here because maybe W4S would rather discuss this with Singxer since you found the problem. 

I look forward to trying this great DDC/DAC combo with full functionality. Thank you very much W4S. 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

5 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Hi Tony, E J,

Great job finding the PCM playback issue. I am very grateful for this first class customer support. I can let Singxer know of their issue if you want me to. However, I will ask your advice here because maybe W4S would rather discuss this with Singxer since you found the problem. 

I look forward to trying this great DDC/DAC combo with full functionality. Thank you very much W4S. 

 

Hi Fran, you're very welcome and happy to help you out. In the bigger picture, we were curious to see where the incompatibility you experienced lied and what the root issue was. Now that we've found it and remain confident in our I2S implementation, any further addressing of the issue we'll respectfully leave to the other manufacturer. 

 

Thanks

[audio.bill]

34 minutes ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

 

Hi Fran, you're very welcome and happy to help you out. In the bigger picture, we were curious to see where the incompatibility you experienced lied and what the root issue was. Now that we've found it and remain confident in our I2S implementation, any further addressing of the issue we'll respectfully leave to the other manufacturer. 

 

Thanks

I am impressed beyond words with the professionalism shown by W4S and the way they handled this compatibility issue with another manufacturer's product. Admittedly when dealing with the interconnection of digital gear there are a seemingly endless variety of issues which can arise caused by either hardware or software. Many other companies would be satisfied knowing that their gear works well with the majority of other products they've tested with and simply declare the one offending unit to be at fault. W4S was not satisfied taking such a position, but went further to investigate and resolve the issue by finding what is apparently a compatibility design flaw in the other product. They then freely shared the solution that they found for the other manufacturer to hopefully address in their design. I have gained much respect for W4S by this display of their professionalism and engineering expertise. Kudos to EJ and Tony for a job exceptionally well done, and raising the bar for others in the industry to hopefully follow!

[Franatic]

+1 Very eloquently said audio.bill. Thank you for expressing so well how I see it and feel also......bigtime raging W4S fanboy here! 

[ksalno]

For those of us who have a Singxer, can you share the type and value of capacitor that you used to correct the problem so that we can apply this fix?

[jojeong8338]

Hi, Good Wednesday~

 

Wyred 4 Sound, many thanks for your update and feedback.

I have heard from Leter of Singxer that some customers tried to I2S connection to W4S DAC with ES9018 through SU-1 with all switch off and worked well.

As long as I know, SU-1 that Franatic sent is not the shipped product from Singxel but the Sound Affairs Plixir Elite BDC power supply modified product for customization.

As W4S reported in above posting, the bypass capacitor as a temporary remedy can affect to the voltage power stability enhancement.

In my humble opinion, I doubt the power supply source level change through LDO and AC-to-DC converter or the difference between ES9018 and ES9038 I2S IO electrical characteristics.

I’m not sure that the original SU-1 has this kind of issue as well.

Anyway, I still look forward to the specialized posting from you as we expects.

 

Best Regards,

Juno

[Franatic]

22 minutes ago, jojeong8338 said:

Hi, Good Wednesday~

 

Wyred 4 Sound, many thanks for your update and feedback.

I have heard from Leter of Singxer that some customers tried to I2S connection to W4S DAC with ES9018 through SU-1 with all switch off and worked well.

As long as I know, SU-1 that Franatic sent is not the shipped product from Singxel but the Sound Affairs Plixir Elite BDC power supply modified product for customization.

As W4S reported in above posting, the bypass capacitor as a temporary remedy can affect to the voltage power stability enhancement.

In my humble opinion, I doubt the power supply source level change through LDO and AC-to-DC converter or the difference between ES9018 and ES9038 I2S IO electrical characteristics.

I’m not sure that the original SU-1 has this kind of issue as well.

Anyway, I still look forward to the specialized posting from you as we expects.

 

Best Regards,

Juno

Juno, I un-modified my SU-1 before sending to W4S. This removed the Sound Affairs power supply modification. Therefore, the SU-1 was in the original factory state with the original power supply reconnected for W4S to test i2s.

[jojeong8338]

3 hours ago, Franatic said:

Juno, I un-modified my SU-1 before sending to W4S. This removed the Sound Affairs power supply modification. Therefore, the SU-1 was in the original factory state with the original power supply reconnected for W4S to test i2s.

Okay, thanks for your info.

I'll check my SU-1with v2se which is coming back later.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

10 hours ago, ksalno said:

For those of us who have a Singxer, can you share the type and value of capacitor that you used to correct the problem so that we can apply this fix?

 Hi @ksalno,

 

10pF/25v capacitor.

[ksalno]

Thanks for the values. Any particular type of dielectric? 

[Franatic]

20 hours ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

 Hi @ksalno,

 

10pF/25v capacitor.

Could you please give any details on the Data line / Pin out that needed the bypass capacitor.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 3/29/2017 at 3:23 AM, jojeong8338 said:

Hi, Good Wednesday~

 

Wyred 4 Sound, many thanks for your update and feedback.

I have heard from Leter of Singxer that some customers tried to I2S connection to W4S DAC with ES9018 through SU-1 with all switch off and worked well.

As long as I know, SU-1 that Franatic sent is not the shipped product from Singxel but the Sound Affairs Plixir Elite BDC power supply modified product for customization.

As W4S reported in above posting, the bypass capacitor as a temporary remedy can affect to the voltage power stability enhancement.

In my humble opinion, I doubt the power supply source level change through LDO and AC-to-DC converter or the difference between ES9018 and ES9038 I2S IO electrical characteristics.

I’m not sure that the original SU-1 has this kind of issue as well.

Anyway, I still look forward to the specialized posting from you as we expects.

 

Best Regards,

Juno

 

 

Just to follow up with this, we believe it was your unit that your dealer had us hold back due to concerns with the Singxer. We included extra caps with your DAC so that the mod could be done on your end.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

17 hours ago, ksalno said:

Thanks for the values. Any particular type of dielectric? 

 Ceramic

[Wyred 4 Sound]

9 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Could you please give any details on the Data line / Pin out that needed the bypass capacitor.

  

It was the word clock input of the differential driver.

[Franatic]

2 hours ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

  

It was the word clock input of the differential driver.

That's interesting, the word clock is used to identify left/right channel data transmission, correct? That explains why only the left channel played. However, I don't understand how it would cause PCM to be identified as DSD. My technician background forces me to analyze everything.

Well the bottom line will be if it clears up that PCM/DSD i2s issue in my DAC. I will let you know as soon as I get it hooked back into my system.

BTW-the modified DAC2V2 DSDse sounds fantastic via usb input.

 

[ksalno]

Caps ordered and should have them next week. Hopefully, I can figure out from W4S pictures where to solder it in.

 

Karl

[Franatic]

14 hours ago, ksalno said:

Caps ordered and should have them next week. Hopefully, I can figure out from W4S pictures where to solder it in.

 

Karl

I'll try to get a better close up of the cap when I get my SU-1 back. I should receive it Tuesday.

[KDinsmore]

I'm about 70 hours in now. I'm sitting down and listening now. I know what others mean when referring to a DAC as "more musical". The music just seems to just jump more.

[jojeong8338]

1 hour ago, KDinsmore said:

I'm about 70 hours in now. I'm sitting down and listening now. I know what others mean when referring to a DAC as "more musical". The music just seems to just jump more.

I know that DAC2se with ES9018 had an inconvenience in the high-pitched sound in terms of resolution and image specify. It is caused by a kind of ES9018 Sabre chip limitation. I hope that DAC2V2se can overcome it and reach to the acoustic naturalness. Do you think that the acoustic thickness in middle range sound is pretty richer than before and valuable enough to upgrade your DAC as expected?

 

[KDinsmore]

So far my perception is that imaging is improved by quite a bit. I don't notice any mid range bloat if that's what you're referring to. If the recording isn't very good you will pick up on it. I listened to a few songs the other day that just were awful. Nothing smoothed over.

[Franatic]

My Singxer SU-1 arrived back from W4S. All file types and bit rates play perfectly. I've played PCM 44, 96, 192 and 352.8(DXD). I've played DSD64 and DSD128. No more playback issues. Great job W4S, above and beyond the call of duty....thank you 

 

I must say the i2s via the Singxer outperforms the direct usb input decidedly here, especially with DSD. The DSD sounds amazing via i2s. I will characterize later after burn-in and numerous very enjoyable listening sessions what I hear, but the modified Singxer SU-1 and the upgraded DAC make a formidable combo. It was very worth the 2k+ spent on the whole upgrade.

 

I took a picture of the capacitor modification. It is the best detail I could get. I think you might need more technical info from W4S to be sure to get it right. It is very tiny and will be hard to see exactly what trace the one side of the cap is soldered on. The other side is soldered onto the pad of the 2 resistors.

[ksalno]

Ideally, Singxter would issue a fix. However, in lieu of that, I agree more specifics on the capacitor and the pin outs would be appreciated. I ordered a couple different ceramic caps from Mouser but they clearly aren't the right ones, as they were so tiny, I couldn't even see them with 2x magnifying glasses on. No way I could solder them. Can W4S provide a link to the right capacitor and some additional directions for the DIYer?

[Bamber]

I just purchased a W4S DAC2v2 SE, finally this is a DAC that suits my system. I previously owned the original DAC2 and then the Yggdrasil. The previous DACS either sounded a tad digital or weren't revealing with my kit.  For me this DAC is a big step forward compared to the original W4S DAC2.

 

Now I've got lovely deep controlled bass, clear balanced mid range and airy top end.  I'm sure I would love some of the exotic DACS you guys own but I've spent enough to get here.  Must stop reading DAC forums